Extra holes on target - section 9.1.4 clarification

[Dazhi]

Had an interesting scenario today: 

• Shooter shoots 9mm
• Shooter fired 3 rounds at a target that is scored as best of 2 hits (the extra shot to make up a mike that was called during the stage run)
• While scoring, RO saw that target has 4 holes, all 9mm and all As
• Shooter asked for a reshoot

 

According to section 9.1.4 in the rule book:

Quote

If there are extra scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon, and it is not obvious which hits were made by the competitor being scored, the affected competitor must be offered to reshoot the course of fire.

 

Should the RO allow a reshoot in the scenario above?  Following the language in the rule, if "it is not obvious to the RO which 2 or 3 holes out of the 4 alphas were shot by the competitor", a reshoot should be permitted, correct?    The counter argument is that the RO can score accurately in this case, e.g. 2 alphas, thus no reshoot is permitted - which I agree sounds like common sense, but not exactly what the rule says.  

[ima45dv8]

2 Alpha.

Next shooter to the line.

[Out of Ammo]

I don't think the shooter is intitled to a reshoot.  The RO can determine that the shooter scored 2 Alphas.

[Umbrarian]

52 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

• Shooter fired 3 rounds at a target that is scored as best of 2 hits (the extra shot to make up a mike that was called during the stage run)

This negates a re-shoot for that reason.

[Joe4d]

target can be accurately scored. 2 A's...  No reshoot.

[Sarge]

Sounds like the rest of the stage went pretty bad to try and make that argument.

[ima45dv8]

17 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Sounds like the rest of the stage went pretty bad to try and make that argument.

That's what I was thinking, too!

[Dazhi]

20 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Sounds like the rest of the stage went pretty bad to try and make that argument.

Yes indeed.  

 

I remember seeing shooters stop when they see holes on targets not taped while running the stage.  RO let them reshoot some times.  I appreciate the rules being clarified at least for me.  Sounds like as long as RO can accurately score, there won't be reshoot with untaped holes.  

[Joe4d]

yeh dont stop during a cof unless its a safety issue, or the RO says stop..  Otherwise your gonna end up with a really bad score. Plenty of time to mention the problem after range is clear command.
Also as an RO you wont get anything out of me, until your holstered and I have given range is clear... Then we can talk.

[Fuelie777]

Exactly as Joe4d said.  2 Alpha's no comments during the stage unless it is "STOP".

 

 

[frgood]

16 hours ago, Joe4d said:

yeh dont stop during a cof unless its a safety issue, or the RO says stop..  Otherwise your gonna end up with a really bad score. Plenty of time to mention the problem after range is clear command.
Also as an RO you wont get anything out of me, until your holstered and I have given range is clear... Then we can talk.

To help educate me, As an RO, if the shooter stops mid COF, is my best course of action to simply repeat "If finished, Unload and Show Clear?" 

[MikeBurgess]

2 minutes ago, frgood said:

To help educate me, As an RO, if the shooter stops mid COF, is my best course of action to simply repeat "If finished, Unload and Show Clear?" 

yes,

the COF is no place for a conversation, if someone stops and starts pointing at a target and yelling not taped etc, or they just stop unexpectedly, whatever,  just calmly go to "If you are finished... " never have a conversation with a shooter until after "Range is clear" everyone involved can get out of sorts and forget that there is a loaded gun in play and when that happens nothing good results.

 

 

 

 

[ChuckS]

44 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

yes,

the COF is no place for a conversation, if someone stops and starts pointing at a target and yelling not taped etc, or they just stop unexpectedly, whatever,  just calmly go to "If you are finished... " never have a conversation with a shooter until after "Range is clear" everyone involved can get out of sorts and forget that there is a loaded gun in play and when that happens nothing good results.

 

 

 

 

In addition to the safety aspect, do not give the shooter an opportunity to successfully troll for a reshoot by trying to get the RO to say something other than the approved range commands.

[ima45dv8]

1 hour ago, frgood said:

To help educate me, As an RO, if the shooter stops mid COF, is my best course of action to simply repeat "If finished, Unload and Show Clear?" 

My habit became to take an animated look at the timer, and then turn it so the shooter could see it. 

The no-so-subtle message, "It's  still running!" would generally get through.

Once the course is clear we can get it sorted out.

[mreed911]

20 hours ago, Dazhi said:

 

• Shooter fired 3 rounds at a target that is scored as best of 2 hits (the extra shot to make up a mike that was called during the stage run)
• While scoring, RO saw that target has 4 holes, all 9mm and all As
• Shooter asked for a reshoot

 

According to section 9.1.4 in the rule book:

 

Should the RO allow a reshoot in the scenario above?  Following the language in the rule, if "it is not obvious to the RO which 2 or 3 holes out of the 4 alphas were shot by the competitor", a reshoot should be permitted, correct?    The counter argument is that the RO can score accurately in this case, e.g. 2 alphas, thus no reshoot is permitted - which I agree sounds like common sense, but not exactly what the rule says.  

This depends on what the RO saw.  If the RO saw the two hits on Alpha on the target as the shooter fired them, then it's "obvious to the RO which two holes were shot."  If the RO did not see the hits and misses as they were fired but absolutely saw only three shots on target and it has four holes, that's a mandatory reshoot as the target cannot be scored as shot because the alphas may not belong to that competitor.

 

It is not correct, if you didn't see the actual hits, to assume the alphas belong to the competitor, and if you're absolutely certain there were only three shots (you don't mention if the RO confirmed this... or could...), it's a reshoot.

 

Otherwise, if the RO wasn't counting shots, it's two alpha.  If the shooter wants to appeal to the RM, score the COF, pull the target, replace it, call the RM and next shooter to the line.

[Dazhi]

2 hours ago, mreed911 said:

This depends on what the RO saw.  If the RO saw the two hits on Alpha on the target as the shooter fired them, then it's "obvious to the RO which two holes were shot."  If the RO did not see the hits and misses as they were fired but absolutely saw only three shots on target and it has four holes, that's a mandatory reshoot as the target cannot be scored as shot because the alphas may not belong to that competitor.

 

It is not correct, if you didn't see the actual hits, to assume the alphas belong to the competitor, and if you're absolutely certain there were only three shots (you don't mention if the RO confirmed this... or could...), it's a reshoot.

 

Otherwise, if the RO wasn't counting shots, it's two alpha.  If the shooter wants to appeal to the RM, score the COF, pull the target, replace it, call the RM and next shooter to the line.

 

In this scenario, the target was hidden partially behind a barrel 10 yards away.  One of the 3 shots struck the barrel.  That's why 3 shots were fired, 1 of them is a makeup.  There is no way RO can pin point the holes and be sure which 2 out of 4 holes in the A zone were shot by the shooter.  However, I totally understand the spirit of this rule.  I believe the idea is that if the RO can "score without any ambiguity", then no reshoot with untaped targets.  In this case, the RO can score 2 alphas without any other way, thus no reshoot. 

 

"The RO may not be able to distinguish your two alpha from any other two alpha, but two alpha is two alpha.  So no reshoot." - that's the ruling from Troy's email about this clarification.

 

I think this case is closed.  If anything, the language in the rule is a bit confusing if you try to understand it on the surface of words.  The spirit of the rule makes a lot of sense though.   An interesting learning and great lesson for me, as in the past I have seen quite a few shooters stop mid course when they are shocked to see untaped targets, and subsequently get to reshoot.   I can imagine for close range open targets, seeing untaped holes on them could cause mental hiccups, especially for high HF stages, and that can potentially mess up someone's game.  

Edited August 24, 2020 by Dazhi

[IVC]

I will give a couple counter-arguments. At L1 matches and with good shooters you score it as 2A and move on. Really, nothing to see here, but...

 

The only way to score it as AA is if the RO is certain there were exactly two holes prior to the attempt. If not, it could've been AM or 2M. It's especially interesting in this case where the shooter fired 3 shots - how likely is that the target was only partially restored and had a single A on it? If it didn't, there was an M involved, which makes it even more important to consider the above scenarios. Remember, the RO *must* know, as in he has counted holes, the number of holes prior to the shooter attempting the target. 

 

Another option is Virginia count stage. OP doesn't mention it, but it's a possibility. There are extra hit penalties. If the RO cannot determine whether it was two or three hits from the competitor, he cannot determine the score. The extra shot is called when it's fired, but the extra hit is, well, extra, and it's called at the target. 

 

The rule to allow scoring of untaped targets is primarily when calibers are different or for L1 matches where it's relatively easy to figure out what happened, albeit by using the knowledge about the previous shooter. This is not allowed, but it's pretty convenient. At L2+, I would call this a reshoot. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by IVC

[Boomstick303]

37 minutes ago, IVC said:

I will give a couple counter-arguments. At L1 matches and with good shooters you score it as 2A and move on. Really, nothing to see here, but...

 

The only way to score it as AA is if the RO is certain there were exactly two holes prior to the attempt. If not, it could've been AM or 2M. It's especially interesting in this case where the shooter fired 3 shots - how likely is that the target was only partially restored and had a single A on it? If it didn't, there was an M involved, which makes it even more important to consider the above scenarios. Remember, the RO *must* know, as in he has counted holes, the number of holes prior to the shooter attempting the target. 

 

Another option is Virginia count stage. OP doesn't mention it, but it's a possibility. There are extra hit penalties. If the RO cannot determine whether it was two or three hits from the competitor, he cannot determine the score. The extra shot is called when it's fired, but the extra hit is, well, extra, and it's called at the target. 

 

The rule to allow scoring of untaped targets is primarily when calibers are different or for L1 matches where it's relatively easy to figure out what happened, albeit by using the knowledge about the previous shooter. This is not allowed, but it's pretty convenient. At L2+, I would call this a reshoot. 

 

9.1.4 is pretty clear if an accurate score cannot be determined, the RO must order a reshoot.  I would think that the instances you have given would require reshoots. Like you said it’s easy when different calibers are involved. You can also see different grease rings from time to time created by different gun/ammo, when the bullet holes are of the same caliber. I have seen that and used that method.  If the RO cannot be certain in how to score the target you have to fail on the side of a Reshoot.

 

This last weekend I scored a target didn’t get pasted and it had 3 Alphas and 1 Charlie. Same caliber, same grease rings.  There was no way to tell the holes apart. I have seen ROs go back and look at the last shooters score card to see what the hits were and derive the current shooters score from that. But you better be 100% positive you know which target that was on the last score card.  I did not feel comfortable in that we knew that information, so a reshoot it was. 

[ima45dv8]

48 minutes ago, IVC said:

The only way to score it as AA is if the RO is certain there were exactly two holes prior to the attempt.

I don't see it that way. Let's imagine that after the previous shooter the target was AM as you suggested. That means that all 3 shots fired by this shooter scored. He still gets 2 Alpha. And it couldn't have been 2M after the last shooter, or there would only be a possible maximum of 3 holes instead of the 4 reported by the OP.  2 Alphas..

[IVC]

16 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

I have seen ROs go back and look at the last shooters score card to see what the hits were and derive the current shooters score from that. But you better be 100% positive you know which target that was on the last score card.

This is not allowed per 9.1.3 without any exceptions. At level 1 matches you can usually sort out the score, but it's not completely on the up-and-up if you have to consider the previous score. 

[IVC]

9 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

I don't see it that way. Let's imagine that after the previous shooter the target was AM as you suggested. That means that all 3 shots fired by this shooter scored. He still gets 2 Alpha. And it couldn't have been 2M after the last shooter, or there would only be a possible maximum of 3 holes instead of the 4 reported by the OP.  2 Alphas..

The target could've been untaped for a few shooters, or the previous shooter could've fired extra shots. 

 

Unless the RO knows there were not more than two hits on the target prior to the current shooter, then I agree, it can be determined and it is 2A. What if there were already *three* untaped holes in the target? 

[mreed911]

3 hours ago, Dazhi said:

 

In this scenario, the target was hidden partially behind a barrel 10 yards away.  One of the 3 shots struck the barrel.  That's why 3 shots were fired, 1 of them is a makeup. 

 

That sort of detail is important.

[mreed911]

2 hours ago, IVC said:

Unless the RO knows there were not more than two hits on the target prior to the current shooter, then I agree, it can be determined and it is 2A. What if there were already *three* untaped holes in the target? 

 

This, exactly.

[71Commander]

On 8/24/2020 at 3:08 PM, frgood said:

To help educate me, As an RO, if the shooter stops mid COF, is my best course of action to simply repeat "If finished, Unload and Show Clear?" 

Proper course of action.

[waktasz]

On 8/24/2020 at 4:17 PM, ima45dv8 said:

My habit became to take an animated look at the timer, and then turn it so the shooter could see it. 

The no-so-subtle message, "It's  still running!" would generally get through.

Once the course is clear we can get it sorted out.

 

Pointing to your watch works pretty well too