X5 Legion accuracy

[Rich406]

26 minutes ago, jaep1911 said:

They do TIG welding to add some meat for custom fitting of barrel, no?

 

what I’m not happy about the X Five platform (especially Legion slide) is that it’s POI drifts up to “4 at 15yards as it warms up from cold start.

 

I know another shooter who had the same (therefore sold it). Anyone else has this phenomenon?

 

I definitely noticed that when I used a stock legion upper. After a couple hundred rounds, the POI would shift a good bit. 

[Boomstick303]

3 hours ago, Rich406 said:

that said, the legion will shoot lighter ammo, or fmj much better. But when you get a load it doesn’t like, it’s awful.

 

With my load development on the Legions I found Velocty being the most important factor. I was able to tighten the group up a lot when using 147gr coated but the velocity had to be up around 1000-1050 FPS. It wasn’t as good as that group you shot with the GG gun, but was acceptable for competition. I ended up running 124/125 gr due to the fact it was giving me the best groups.

 

I am sending a gun off the Sig Armorer and having him fit a Barstow barrel while he does the trigger job. I want to compare groups after that. 

[mrvip27]

18 hours ago, jaep1911 said:

They do TIG welding to add some meat for custom fitting of barrel, no?

 

what I’m not happy about the X Five platform (especially Legion slide) is that it’s POI drifts up to “4 at 15yards as it warms up from cold start.

 

I know another shooter who had the same (therefore sold it). Anyone else has this phenomenon?

 

Yes they hand fit.

 

You don't get any barrel slop vs the x5 legion slide.

[mrvip27]

23 hours ago, Rich406 said:

I’ve been working on finalizing what ammo I’m going to use next year. Today when I was testing, I decided to take a stock legion along and see how it shot. I had forgotten how bad it was.
 

These guns just don’t like coated heavy bullets.

 
Shot from a rest at 15 yards. 

 

I’ve also attached a pic of the same ammo shot from a grayguns modified slide. Huge difference.

 

what ammo was this?

[Rich406]

On 12/22/2021 at 2:02 PM, mrvip27 said:

 

what ammo was this?

‘Blue Bullets 147 .356 FP 1.15 3.35 Sport pistol. Runs about 133pf

[Bostenelli]

Mine was ok as well didnt care for the grip or trigger. I did like the fcu feature tho. 

[HOGRIDER]

On 12/21/2021 at 11:27 PM, Boomstick303 said:

 

With my load development on the Legions I found Velocty being the most important factor. I was able to tighten the group up a lot when using 147gr coated but the velocity had to be up around 1000-1050 FPS. It wasn’t as good as that group you shot with the GG gun, but was acceptable for competition. I ended up running 124/125 gr due to the fact it was giving me the best groups.

 

I am sending a gun off the Sig Armorer and having him fit a Barstow barrel while he does the trigger job. I want to compare groups after that. 

Boom:

 

Seriously considering adding a P320 MAX to the stable to get started in CO.  If so, I'll be pushing to get a load developed before the season starts.  Very interested in your results with the stock and Bar-Sto barrel if you don't mind. 

 

Recently exchanged emails with Robert Burke concerning the P320's accuracy potential; and would the Bar-Sto be a substantial addition.  Here's his reply:

 

Quote

 

 

.........I’m sorry but the newest P320’s won’t do sub 2” out of the box. From a perfect rest or a seasoned offhand shooter I would say 2.5 to 3.25 is more like it. This can be mitigated to some degree with our Competition Level Action Job which will remove the trigger from the distractions list while shooting. 

 

We can do a Bar Sto fitted barrel for $420 and we have them in stock. You should expect sub 2” with the right shooter and right ammo. 

Yours in Sigs,

Robert 

 

Appreciate any feedback!

 

[HOGRIDER]

On 12/21/2021 at 4:34 PM, Rich406 said:

I’ve been working on finalizing what ammo I’m going to use next year. Today when I was testing, I decided to take a stock legion along and see how it shot. I had forgotten how bad it was.
 

These guns just don’t like coated heavy bullets.

 
Shot from a rest at 15 yards. 

 

I’ve also attached a pic of the same ammo shot from a grayguns modified slide. Huge difference.

Rich:

That's a substantial improvement!  Would you mind elaborating on your "modified slide" that helped to create this great grouping?  Have been on GG's site and haven't noticed any specific listing for slide mods.

 

Thanks!

[Zincwarrior]

1 hour ago, HOGRIDER said:

Rich:

That's a substantial improvement!  Would you mind elaborating on your "modified slide" that helped to create this great grouping?  Have been on GG's site and haven't noticed any specific listing for slide mods.

 

Thanks!

Part of the question appears to be though, will it remain that accurate? It appears that the Legions open up after some use. 

[mrvip27]

2 hours ago, HOGRIDER said:

Rich:

That's a substantial improvement!  Would you mind elaborating on your "modified slide" that helped to create this great grouping?  Have been on GG's site and haven't noticed any specific listing for slide mods.

 

Thanks!

 

The GG uppers are hand fitted barrel/hood/etc to slide.

Edited February 9, 2022 by mrvip27

[RH45]

My first carry optic gun was an M&P Pro. Apex trigger kit, and gunsmith fit Apex barrel. Best groups I could get with the stock barrel were about 2" at 25 yards, off sandbags. With the Apex barrel 4 out of 5 will be under an inch, but, I always get one flyer that spoil the group. Apex trigger isn't quite as good as my 1911s/2011s, but close.

Decided against shooting carry optics for USPSA when I have 2 open guns that the dot stays in the window, whereas with the M&P the dot would always jump out of the window. Tried 160 grain bullets, which were so soft, it was almost like cheating, but, accuracy was more like 4" at 25 yards. I had some coated bullets made to .357, and accuracy was a little better, but, had issues loading them in anything other than Federal brass. Sold it to a fellow shooter.

Then, IDPA started carry optics. I bought an original Xfive. Hated the trigger, so I installed a Bruce Gray competition trigger kit. I still don't love the trigger. I don't mind the slightly heavy pull, or the pre-travel, but, the creep drives me nuts. I bought a second one, because I like to have pairs. Both pistols prefer 124-125 grain jhps, and will shoot groups at 25 yards just a little over an inch. If I switch to Zero 147 jhps, or Extreme 147 hps, the groups double. If I switch to coated bullets, groups open up even more. 160 grain coated bullets just plain suck, for accuracy. when Sig came out with the Legion, I read about accuracy issues, but, the heavier grip interested me. I bought a Legion grip for one of my Xfives, and a Wilson for the other. Even though the Wilson FEELS better, and fits my small hand better than the Legion grip, shooting both while using a timer proves I do better with the heavier grip.

The fellow shooter that bought my old M&P probably put 50K through it, then, bought a Legion. He said he tried a Gray Guns competition trigger kit, but, thought the trigger felt worse. He sent his Legion to the Sig armorer and I'm pretty impressed. He bought a second Legion and also sent it to the Sig armorer. I've fondled them, but, never fired them. He told me that he can only get acceptable accuracy with 124-125 grain jhps. This is coming from a shooter that was running 160 grain coated, through an M&P that I KNOW would only shoot 3-4" groups at 25 yards.

I've been reading about the AGX grip. It SOUNDS like it will fit my hands a little better. I guess I'll have to stop at a gun shop and fondle some. Now, if I could only get rid of the creep in the trigger I would be happy.

 

[Boomstick303]

51 minutes ago, RH45 said:

Now, if I could only get rid of the creep in the trigger I would be happy.

 

Performance wise in shooting these guns in IDPA or USPSA what does the creep prevent you from doing?  I ask because 90% of the time we are slapping the trigger.  When you are on the clock do you notice the creep, or do you only notice it when trying to shoot groups, bench shooting and/or slow dry fire practice.  USPSA and IDPA are not bullseye types of shooting sports. If they were I could understand the issue with creep in triggers. 

 

Do get me wrong I am fanatical about how good 1911/2011 triggers are when tuned correctly. There is no other better trigger, but these guns are never going to have that type of trigger.  I just think too many place having a clean break on plastic guns when we are slapping these triggers the majority of the time.  super clean breaks are not required to excel in these types of shooting sports. I think that has been proven in the last couple of Nationals. 

[echotango]

16 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Performance wise in shooting these guns in IDPA or USPSA what does the creep prevent you from doing?  I ask because 90% of the time we are slapping the trigger.  When you are on the clock do you notice the creep, or do you only notice it when trying to shoot groups, bench shooting and/or slow dry fire practice.  USPSA and IDPA are not bullseye types of shooting sports. If they were I could understand the issue with creep in triggers. 

 

Do get me wrong I am fanatical about how good 1911/2011 triggers are when tuned correctly. There is no other better trigger, but these guns are never going to have that type of trigger.  I just think too many place having a clean break on plastic guns when we are slapping these triggers the majority of the time.  super clean breaks are not required to excel in these types of shooting sports. I think that has been proven in the last couple of Nationals. 

I agree.  Take out the long pre-travel and good to go. 

[Boomstick303]

On 2/9/2022 at 9:55 AM, HOGRIDER said:

Very interested in your results with the stock and Bar-Sto barrel if you don't mind.

 

Yup. For sure.  

[HOGRIDER]

26 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Yup. For sure.  

[RH45]

3 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Performance wise in shooting these guns in IDPA or USPSA what does the creep prevent you from doing?  I ask because 90% of the time we are slapping the trigger.  When you are on the clock do you notice the creep, or do you only notice it when trying to shoot groups, bench shooting and/or slow dry fire practice.  USPSA and IDPA are not bullseye types of shooting sports. If they were I could understand the issue with creep in triggers. 

 

Do get me wrong I am fanatical about how good 1911/2011 triggers are when tuned correctly. There is no other better trigger, but these guns are never going to have that type of trigger.  I just think too many place having a clean break on plastic guns when we are slapping these triggers the majority of the time.  super clean breaks are not required to excel in these types of shooting sports. I think that has been proven in the last couple of Nationals. 

I have a tendency to “pull” the shot. 
If I take the time to prep the trigger, past the creep, bullet holes usually appear where I want them to be.

[RH45]

2 hours ago, echotango said:

I agree.  Take out the long pre-travel and good to go. 

The pre-travel doesn’t bother me at all. If it did, there’s replacement triggers that you can adjust the pre-travel down to nothing 

[fireman1776]

I think this whole thread begs the question of how much accuracy is good enough for USPSA. The correct answer is probably, "as much as I can get". But we have to balance the cost, at least most of us do. Is 3" at 25 yards good enough for USPSA? I think so. But it's a subjective answer. 

[RH45]

18 minutes ago, fireman1776 said:

I think this whole thread begs the question of how much accuracy is good enough for USPSA. The correct answer is probably, "as much as I can get". But we have to balance the cost, at least most of us do. Is 3" at 25 yards good enough for USPSA? I think so. But it's a subjective answer. 

I don’t shoot carry optics for USPSA because I have 2 perfectly good open guns, but I did classify in carry optics.

Most of the stock, plastic guns I’ve shot would easily be under 3” at 25 yards, but, I did have one M&P that was pretty horrible. If I remember correctly, depending on the load, 6-12” at 25 yards.

[echotango]

3 hours ago, RH45 said:

The pre-travel doesn’t bother me at all. If it did, there’s replacement triggers that you can adjust the pre-travel down to nothing 

In bothers me. I have keres and AC triggers on all mine. 

[Chillywig]

On 12/21/2021 at 11:27 PM, Boomstick303 said:

 

With my load development on the Legions I found Velocty being the most important factor. I was able to tighten the group up a lot when using 147gr coated but the velocity had to be up around 1000-1050 FPS. It wasn’t as good as that group you shot with the GG gun, but was acceptable for competition. I ended up running 124/125 gr due to the fact it was giving me the best groups.

 

I am sending a gun off the Sig Armorer and having him fit a Barstow barrel while he does the trigger job. I want to compare groups after that. 

Did you ever get this work completed and have an opportunity to do some accuracy testing? 

[Boomstick303]

4 hours ago, Chillywig said:

Did you ever get this work completed and have an opportunity to do some accuracy testing? 

 

Life has gotten in the way a little bit, so I have yet to send the P320 Max off to the Sig Armorer yet.  I will be getting it out this week for the trigger work and Barstow barrel fitment.  

 

I did shoot groups with an X5 Legion, an P320 Max, (Prior to an work with stock barrel for comparison once I get it back), an P320 AXG Pro, and a 2011 (for comparison reasons) to compare all of the guns on the same target with the same ammo.  I bench tested at 21 Feet to try and minimize Dot MOA size from tainting the comparison results.  

 

Not much to see.  The P320s grouped pretty similar.  The groups for the P320 most likely would not have been pretty at 25yds.  The 2011 is ragged hole.  I will share once I get the P320 max back after the fitment of the barrel, it will be tested with the same ammo.  124 gr Precision Delta JHP using 4.0 gr of N320.  We can see if the group tightened up.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Boomstick303

[HOGRIDER]

Based on my initial break-in Chrono tests with the new P320 MAX, it definitely appears the pistol likes the 124/125g bullets that I have tested with.  Tried some of my CZ 147g Zero JHP match loads and accuracy was descent.  But when I finally tried some 124g Federal Syntech, it was coming into the zone it likes.  As others have stated, the Max likes 124/125 bullets at a bit faster FPS!

 

Attached chrono file shows the lower two shots for sight-in and the remainder coming from a plastic pistol rest at 20 yards.

 

My next plan of attack is to test some reloads with N320 using Zero 125 JHPs plus some PD 124JHPs I have ordered.  

 

Would anyone using N320 care to share some relevant info?  I'm thinking after testing my current CZ loads, the it will take about 4.2g of N320 to get the 124/125g JHPs into that 135-137PF range.

 

As others here, I've been using the 1.080 OAL for the CZ S2O, but have used 1.125" with 147g Zero JHPS.  Any users finding that a specific OAL works better in the P320 platform with 124/125g JHPs?

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences!

 

PS:  Pic with the Springer Tungsten Guide Rod............

 

 

sig-p320-max-wfederal-syntech-124g.pdf

Edited March 20, 2022 by HOGRIDER
sp

[Nuncles]

I gave up on my Legion and just went to the full size.  I hadn't chrono'd VN320 out of the Legion but out of my FS, I got 134PF with 4.3 gr of VN320 at 1.12 OAL, Rocky Mountain 124 TC (jacketed) bullets, and Federal Match primers.  132PF with Fiocchi primers.

On 3/19/2022 at 9:47 PM, HOGRIDER said:

Would anyone using N320 care to share some relevant info?  I'm thinking after testing my current CZ loads, the it will take about 4.2g of N320 to get the 124/125g JHPs into that 135-137PF range.

 

 

[ddc]

26 minutes ago, Nuncles said:

I gave up on my Legion and just went to the full size.  I hadn't chrono'd VN320 out of the Legion but out of my FS, I got 134PF with 4.3 gr of VN320 at 1.12 OAL, Rocky Mountain 124 TC (jacketed) bullets, and Federal Match primers.  132PF with Fiocchi primers.

 

 

So you're saying your FS was more accurate than the legion?