X5 Legion accuracy

[fireman1776]

On 4/30/2022 at 5:52 PM, RH45 said:

I’m pretty sure that’s shot out of a fixture. I’d be surprised if it does better than 2” at 25 yards, unless it’s oversized, and has to be fitted 

I’d rather know pure mechanical accuracy. The human element adds variances. Even if it is out of a fixture I haven’t heard anyone else claim that level of accuracy. 

[ddc]

On 5/2/2022 at 9:14 PM, Johnny_Chimpo said:

I'm floored by the amount of time and resources wasted trying to find the last bit of accuracy when there are so many more important things to focus on.

 

At least if you want to get out of C class

 

Some of us just like to fiddle around with out guns. It's part of the fun.

 

Some like to fiddle around with their load to get the "perfect load" for their gun. It's part of the fun.

 

Personally I've gone down a few rabbit holes over the years. They didn't get me any closer to Christian but I learned some things and had fun doing so.

 

hmmm. that word "fun" keeps coming up...

[HOGRIDER]

On 4/30/2022 at 12:35 AM, fireman1776 said:

Fwiw the new KKM barrels claim a 3/4” group at 50 yards using Atlanta arms 115 grn. The lockup is much tighter than factory barrel and dropped in on my legion. 

That grouping is using the KKM 1:18 rifling developed for Bullseye Competition/AMU.  The 1:16 rifling is more suited to USPSA type competition accuracy............a bit over 1" at 50 yds...........

 

[yekcoh]

On 4/29/2022 at 9:35 PM, fireman1776 said:

Fwiw the new KKM barrels claim a 3/4” group at 50 yards using Atlanta arms 115 grn. The lockup is much tighter than factory barrel and dropped in on my legion. 

I can semi attest to this claim. Before I glorify KKM, let me give you my background. 

 

I've shot Sig p320 for about a year. Put about 30k through a pair of legions.

My main was accurate enough with 147gr. At some point last year, I switched the places of my main and back up because I ended up installing the tungsten plug into my back up and I liked the idea of a heavier pistol. 

 

One really interesting note to point out here is that despite the exact same set up between the two Sig p320 Legions, my main gun noticeably felt better in recoil. I mean NOTICEABLY. I blamed this on the back up gun not being broken in.

 

It was a huge mistake to use my back up as a main despite the huge success I had with my original main. I shot nats and area 2 with the back up. At nats, I noticed that I was dropping a lot of charlies and no matter how hard I tried, I kept dropping points. At A2, it was even worse. I ended up getting 8 mikes; it was the record number of mikes. Devastated, I came home and checked my zero with the back up. The problem was that the accuracy was absurdly horrible. I'm talking 6-8 inch spread at 15 yards

 

I panicked and realized I needed to fix this. Luckily, KKM had just launched their P320 barrel and I picked one up. When I put the barrel in, the lock up was much tighter and because of the tight lock up, the trigger felt much better.

 

I've then realized that a good barrel dictates the overall performance of P320.

 

Fast forward to now, I shoot 147gr coated and plated. The accuracy of 147gr plated is undoubtedly and very very clearly better. It's almost frustrating to see how the group opens up with 147 coated as I've never had such bad accuracy problems with any other guns. My Glock with KKM was able to pull consistent 2 inch group at 35 yards, bench.

 

Recently, I went back to my original main gun to train and balance the wear between the two. By now, I had put about the same number of rounds through both guns. And I still noticeably feel that my original main gun feels a lot better even without the tungsten plug. So Idk guys...

 

P320 accuracy is s#!t but it's literally never failed on me. Not one round out of 30k+ rounds. So I have a good reason to keep using this gun for now.

 

But back to the point, the accuracy of p320 is not satisfying but with KKM, it is acceptable for action pistol. And like others have said, the trigger does make a difference. the slide jerk from sear break is big and I'd like to think that the movement of the slide--along with some inconsistent barrel lock up--is what's causing the horrible accuracy issue. You can't run this gun out of box.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by yekcoh

[LMS]

Has anyone tried a wilson combat slide on a legion frame?   Wondering if that would be more accurate.

[oddjob]

Yekcoh,

 

What kinda groups are you getting with the KKM and the 147's?  Have you tried 124's?

 

thanks

[yekcoh]

On 5/21/2022 at 2:14 PM, oddjob said:

Yekcoh,

 

What kinda groups are you getting with the KKM and the 147's?  Have you tried 124's?

 

thanks

Have not tried 124gr. I think I was getting about half inch to an inch spread at 15 yards with plated. Spread was noticeably larger with coated. I still shoot coated at major matches and get good hits so it's tolerable accuracy but I certainly would like to have better accuracy

 

I will test again this weekend with more repeatable setup with pictures so it's in record.

Edited May 24, 2022 by yekcoh
additional text

[tt350z]

On 5/19/2022 at 7:38 PM, yekcoh said:

The problem was that the accuracy was absurdly horrible. I'm talking 6-8 inch spread at 15 yards

 

...the slide jerk from sear break is big and I'd like to think that the movement of the slide--along with some inconsistent barrel lock up--is what's causing the horrible accuracy issue. You can't run this gun out of box.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with that, granted mine is an AXG Pro and my first Sig pistol.

 

My 10 round standing unsupported groups at 15 yards were literally 8.5". In comparison, my Zev OZ9 grouped at 3" when shot back to back and was repeatable during a range session quick session. I noticed that my AXG's slide moved around a lot as well.

 

I put my FCU in a vice and squished the frame rails, so now my slide to FCU fit is so much better. Along with an AC trigger and #14 ISMI spring, I tested it again and was able to put 5 rounds touching while shooting standing unsupported at 15 yards. Accuracy is much better and I feel much more confident in taking partials shots for USPSA usage.

 

This is my slide to FCU fit now.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by tt350z

[HOGRIDER]

12 minutes ago, tt350z said:

 

I agree with that, granted mine is an AXG Pro and my first Sig pistol.

 

My 10 round standing unsupported groups at 15 yards were literally 8.5". In comparison, my Zev OZ9 grouped at 3" when shot back to back and was repeatable during a range session quick session. I noticed that my AXG's slide moved around a lot as well.

 

I put my FCU in a vice and squished the frame rails, so now my slide to FCU fit is so much better. Along with an AC trigger and #14 ISMI spring, I tested it again and was able to put 5 rounds touching while shooting standing unsupported at 15 yards. Accuracy is much better and I feel much more confident in taking partials shots for USPSA usage.

 

This is my slide to FCU fit now.

 

@tt350zAs someone that's done this YEARS AGO to the 1911 slide and frame platform, I'm curious to what direction your "squished" frame rails were done in the vice!  Did you bend the rails down to pull the slide closer?  Spread them horizontally to improve side to side fit?

 

Would appreciate your details if you don't mind!

 

Also be interested in your load data......124/125g or larger?

 

Thanks! 

[jaep1911]

That’s new to me. I thought that it’s all about the barrel to slide fitment. Thanks for sharing your finding!

[tt350z]

55 minutes ago, HOGRIDER said:

@tt350zAs someone that's done this YEARS AGO to the 1911 slide and frame platform, I'm curious to what direction your "squished" frame rails were done in the vice!  Did you bend the rails down to pull the slide closer?  Spread them horizontally to improve side to side fit?

 

Would appreciate your details if you don't mind!

 

Also be interested in your load data......124/125g or larger?

 

Thanks! 

 

The vice jaws pressed on the top of the rails and bottom of the FCU. The rails did spread a little bit as it was pressed down since its an unsupported U-shape. I did have to spread my front rail more than the rear rails as it was sloppier. I just filed/polished the side of the rails until the slide cycled smoothly. Now I have very minimal vertical movement and basically zero lateral movement.

 

I was just shooting factory 115g Blazer Brass. 124g Prvi grouped about the same. Didn't notice a change in group size while shooting standing unsupported except for snappier recoil.

Edited May 25, 2022 by tt350z

[HOGRIDER]

4 minutes ago, tt350z said:

 

The vice jaws pressed on the top of the rails and bottom of the FCU. The rails did spread a little bit as it was pressed down since its an unsupported U-shape. I did have to spread my front rail more than the rear rails as it was sloppier. I just filed/polished the side of the rails until the slide cycled smoothly. Now I have very minimal vertical movement and basically zero lateral movement.

 

I was just shooting factory 115g Blazer Brass. 124g Prvi grouped about the same. Did notice a change in group size while shooting standing unsupported except for snappier recoil.

Very interesting!

 

And thanks for the details!

 

[oddjob]

When I first sighted in my 320X5 I loaded the chamber and removed the magazine.  Placed it in a rest and slowly pulled the trigger.  The slide moved down when pulling the trigger.  I then left the magazine in the gun and sighted in.  The slide stopped moving.  Sig Mechanics on Youtube explains the reason. 

 

Not sure how much this affects sighting in as I left the magazine in as soon as I noticed it.

[jaep1911]

5 hours ago, oddjob said:

When I first sighted in my 320X5 I loaded the chamber and removed the magazine.  Placed it in a rest and slowly pulled the trigger.  The slide moved down when pulling the trigger.  I then left the magazine in the gun and sighted in.  The slide stopped moving.  Sig Mechanics on Youtube explains the reason. 

 

Not sure how much this affects sighting in as I left the magazine in as soon as I noticed it.

A funny thing is that my original X5 slide doesn’t do that with a same lower. 
 

when i sight in my Legion slide, I always leave a couple of rounds in the mag in order to avoid the slides vertical movement. 

[ddc]

4 hours ago, jaep1911 said:

...

 

when i sight in my Legion slide, I always leave a couple of rounds in the mag in order to avoid the slides vertical movement. 

 

I wish I had thought of that. I wonder how much variation that last shot slide movement might introduce into the group size.

[yekcoh]

On 5/24/2022 at 7:01 PM, tt350z said:

 

The vice jaws pressed on the top of the rails and bottom of the FCU. The rails did spread a little bit as it was pressed down since its an unsupported U-shape. I did have to spread my front rail more than the rear rails as it was sloppier. I just filed/polished the side of the rails until the slide cycled smoothly. Now I have very minimal vertical movement and basically zero lateral movement.

 

I was just shooting factory 115g Blazer Brass. 124g Prvi grouped about the same. Didn't notice a change in group size while shooting standing unsupported except for snappier recoil.

do you have any pictures you could show that shows comparison between factory and the vice pressed fcu?@tt350z

[tt350z]

9 hours ago, yekcoh said:

do you have any pictures you could show that shows comparison between factory and the vice pressed fcu?@tt350z

I dont have any pictures of the FCU alone. Visually it looks identical since you'd need some calipers to measure any differences, which I did not measure prior to or post FCU mod.

 

One thing to note is that ALL of my groups are shot with only the exact amount of ammo loaded in the mag. Mags are not topped off, so as rounds are fired, there is less and less pressure on the slide to prevent the slide jump. Same 115g Blazer Brass ammo.

 

First shots out of the box. Slow fire.

 

OZ9 shot right after

 

Tightened slide to FCU fit + AC trigger

 

Shot of as fast I was comfortable while making A-zone or there about. I'm just a 76% PCC/73% CO shooter

 

I dont have any targets from my most recent setup, tighten slide/FCU some more (tightened the front rail/slide some more), AC and Tactical Trigger setup, Tungsten guide rod and #14 recoil spring which produced my best groups and cycling feel.

Edited May 27, 2022 by tt350z

[yekcoh]

7 minutes ago, tt350z said:

I dont have any pictures of the FCU alone. Visually it looks identical since you'd need some calipers to measure any differences, which I did not measure prior to or post FCU mod.

 

One thing to note is that ALL of my groups are shot with only the exact amount of ammo loaded in the mag. Mags are not topped off, so as rounds are fired, there is less and less pressure on the slide to prevent the slide jump. Same 115g Blazer Brass ammo.

 

First shots out of the box. Slow fire.

 

OZ9 shot right after

 

Tightened slide to FCU fit + AC trigger

 

Shot of as fast I was comfortable while making A-zone or there about. I'm just a 76% PCC/73% CO shooter

 

I dont have any targets from my most recent setup, tighten slide/FCU some more (tightened the front rail/slide some more), AC and Tactical Trigger setup, Tungsten guide rod and #14 recoil spring which produced my best groups and cycling feel.

 I meant the pics of FCU not shot groups. I think others want to see the same. It'd be nice if you had two Sigs with one pressed and one intact.

[bluedevil008]

I have an old (first year production) XFive and a Legion, both with GrayGuns kits in them.  The X5 probably has 1.5-2K whereas my Legion probably has 5K.  Both did 2" groups with 135" coated bullets at 25 yards with me resting off a sandbag...  plenty good enough for me.   Opted to run the X5 over the legion as my primary this year because the spring setup seems perfect to me, still working on trying to get that perfect on the Legion.  Also, the GG flat trigger has a slightly better break for me, even though my curved GG in the Legion is a slightly lighter pull.  Both have the same travel and reset.

[davsco]

finally did a uspsa match last weekend with my x5 legion, stock other than gg trigger kit.  was shooting a little left at distance and was hoping it was the gun and not me, but looks like it was me...  top and bottom are the x5 legion.

[Boomstick303]

For guys running the Barsto barrels, did you have to change your OAL?  I thought I read somewhere the Barstow barrels throats are a bit shorter than stock X5 barrels.  I have some bullets I loaded a little long and was hoping to be able to use those bullets in the Barstow barrels.

[LMS]

5 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

For guys running the Barsto barrels, did you have to change your OAL?

 

I had to load RN to 1.08 or 1.09 to get them to pass the plunk test.

[tim_w]

Guys it likely has to do with the locking lug to block fit.  If the lug is not touching the block then accuracy is going to be meh.  By squeezing tge fcu rails downward that pulls the slide down toward the frame.  That I  turn pulls the barrels locking lug closer to tge locking block it is suppose to be resting on.

 

If you can vertically move the barrel at the hood without a full mag then the lug to block fitment is loose so the barrel is floating off that lug and it's soley the loaded mags tension  holding it .  Not good for accuracy.

 

A gunsmith fit barrel allows you to fit that lug and the hood.  This locks the barrel in a repeatable position on in battery lockup.  If it has a loose hood and very worse the lug is not sitting flush on the block you will get variation in lockup and as you pull thru the trigger. Bullets go shotgun or shift with fliers

 

This is similar to the large increases in accuracy that could be had in the SW 9 MPs using Apex bar sto gs barrels.  Mine from a ransom will shoot consistent 10rd 1" @ 25yd with a number of loads.  Guys on the bullseye forum have gotten poly p-07 to do the same adding metal to the lug and fitting it.

 

Sounds like the same thing here.  On glocks and MP I will very lightly pinch the slide frame rail closed (vertically) in the area on the frame blocks at lockup position.  This keeps the slide in a consistent position to the locking block at the in battery position.  This way there is very minimal movement vertically of the slide to frame rails in tge in battery position.  Then I look at the locking lug fitment.  

 

If the legion has enough air gap between the slide and frame without a full mag then slightly bending the fcu rails downward and checking barrel lug lockup till you get a snug fit but cycles into battery on full release should get a consistent in battery lockup.   Just remember tiny amounts of adjustment.

 

There is no design reason the legions should not be capable of at least a min of 2"@25yd.  It sounds like Sig opened up the spec on tge locking lug fitment from the x5 because of ignorant complaints about tight lockup. (What some of you are calling 'pretension")

Edited August 9, 2022 by tim_w

[Cnickolas]

On 4/14/2020 at 7:43 AM, Cavy said:

Just picked up a new P320 X5 Legion. Nice gun but I am not thrilled with the accuracy. It is O.K. but I really would have thought it would be better.

Does anyone know what the twist rate is? I don't see it listed in the specs.

I like to shoot 135 or 147 gr coated, not so much 125 or 115. Thanks

 

Mine shoots best with 125 grain. Notable increase in group size with 147 grain. 

[mrvip27]

On 8/9/2022 at 3:06 AM, tim_w said:

Guys it likely has to do with the locking lug to block fit.  If the lug is not touching the block then accuracy is going to be meh.  By squeezing tge fcu rails downward that pulls the slide down toward the frame.  That I  turn pulls the barrels locking lug closer to tge locking block it is suppose to be resting on.

 

If you can vertically move the barrel at the hood without a full mag then the lug to block fitment is loose so the barrel is floating off that lug and it's soley the loaded mags tension  holding it .  Not good for accuracy.

 

A gunsmith fit barrel allows you to fit that lug and the hood.  This locks the barrel in a repeatable position on in battery lockup.  If it has a loose hood and very worse the lug is not sitting flush on the block you will get variation in lockup and as you pull thru the trigger. Bullets go shotgun or shift with fliers

 

This is similar to the large increases in accuracy that could be had in the SW 9 MPs using Apex bar sto gs barrels.  Mine from a ransom will shoot consistent 10rd 1" @ 25yd with a number of loads.  Guys on the bullseye forum have gotten poly p-07 to do the same adding metal to the lug and fitting it.

 

Sounds like the same thing here.  On glocks and MP I will very lightly pinch the slide frame rail closed (vertically) in the area on the frame blocks at lockup position.  This keeps the slide in a consistent position to the locking block at the in battery position.  This way there is very minimal movement vertically of the slide to frame rails in tge in battery position.  Then I look at the locking lug fitment.  

 

If the legion has enough air gap between the slide and frame without a full mag then slightly bending the fcu rails downward and checking barrel lug lockup till you get a snug fit but cycles into battery on full release should get a consistent in battery lockup.   Just remember tiny amounts of adjustment.

 

There is no design reason the legions should not be capable of at least a min of 2"@25yd.  It sounds like Sig opened up the spec on tge locking lug fitment from the x5 because of ignorant complaints about tight lockup. (What some of you are calling 'pretension")

 

Because people were dumb and rode the slide home and had "battery" issues. Except when you shot it, everything was fine. Go figure. People complained to SIG. Now they "fixed" it and now accuracy sucks. Sig can't seem to win.

They def went backwards imo.

Edited August 11, 2022 by mrvip27