3-Gun Recession?

[kurtm]

To kind of build on some of the things said, you have to consider where these new shooters come from. They are ardent followers of the "spec ops" type guys seen all over social media. The kind of guys who say zero at 25 yards. Puts you on all the way out to 500, you gotta use the C clamp hold or you will never shoot so very good. The shotguns are only for breaching and stupid for anything else crowd. They show up at a match and can't hit a 10" plate at 100, and when you tell them their zero is off they argue the ChrisMattJeff all recommend the 25/50 yard zero, and how could you know anything. Their gear doesn't run well, their gear gets in their way, and they already don't like shotguns. Their idea of a great match is no target farther than 40-50 yards and lots and lots of bullets. I've been told our stages would be a lot more fun if the were 2-3 full magazines, all CQB style, with no no shoots! And no pistol target over 10 yards, after all in combat situations there are no no shoots. They always come with the latest greatest battle comp short carbine with more crap hung off of it than you can buy in a Tapco catalogue, and can't even get into prone due to the great amount of gear carried on their plate carriers. Their view of a match is far different and how it runs is far different. Why should we tape? I've been asked that. At a class this guy attended where they shot 1700 rounds in two days to really fine tune things they never taped. They get frustrated fast when they find that the "mind skill"  level that they had from UTube doesn't match what that level is and rather than ask why am I not doing well, they drop back on "well Ian says 3-gun matches are stupid anyway". Your not going to keep them around as new shooters, because they already come thinking it going to be stupid, and when they can't perform to their minds eye, it is stupid.. The "new shooters" of 10 years ago showed up for the fancy bowling shirts and the prize tables and the desire to be thought of as great, a far different mind set than now. No, I didn't like what 3GN did to the sport, but it did bring motivated shooters, even if it was just for fame. Very few are still around, when the fame ran out so did they. But hey we are shooting 3-gun tomorrow and we still run the same old rules since 1996, and to me it's still a blast. 

 

[RJH]

∆∆∆ that's good stuff

[Boomstick303]

Too Funny.  I have never shot a 3 Gun match and intend to shoot 2-3 of them this summer.  I go in with zero expectation, and look forward trying to keep the 3 guns running, let alone place well.  I have done a a ton of research on how to make my equipment as reliable as possible, especially the shotgun in that it seems that is the gun that goes down the most.  

 

Should be fun.

[kurtm]

Welcome Boomstick303, I hope you have a great time! I will give you a small slice of advice. Working gear is #1. A good zero on your rifle and pistol is #2..... Now for unsolicited advice.....

Don't get too wrapped up on shotgun loading. If you can load a shell a second under match conditions you are doing great! Here is the most important point! Shotgun is a DON'T MISS firearm. No matter how fast you load, no matter how fast you can shoot every miss with a shotgun costs 1-1 1/2 seconds. First you have to realize you missed, next you have to load that round back in, then you have to aim again and press the trigger. Chances are you will be flustered from miss and there is a higher probability you will miss again. Take your time and don't miss with the shotgun! 

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, kurtm said:

Welcome Boomstick303, I hope you have a great time! I will give you a small slice of advice. Working gear is #1. A good zero on your rifle and pistol is #2..... Now for unsolicited advice.....

Don't get too wrapped up on shotgun loading. If you can load a shell a second under match conditions you are doing great! Here is the most important point! Shotgun is a DON'T MISS firearm. No matter how fast you load, no matter how fast you can shoot every miss with a shotgun costs 1-1 1/2 seconds. First you have to realize you missed, next you have to load that round back in, then you have to aim again and press the trigger. Chances are you will be flustered from miss and there is a higher probability you will miss again. Take your time and don't miss with the shotgun! 

100% correct, of course I know you have way more three gun experience than I do. But a lot of people don't realize how much missing with a shotgun cost them. It's a lot like missing with a revolver, you just can't do it and expect good results.

 

 

Edited to add: 

 

BuT yOu CaiNT MiSs wiTh A shOTgUN

Edited February 10, 2023 by RJH

[Boomstick303]

4 minutes ago, kurtm said:

Don't get too wrapped up on shotgun loading. If you can load a shell a second under match conditions you are doing great! Here is the most important point! Shotgun is a DON'T MISS firearm. No matter how fast you load, no matter how fast you can shoot every miss with a shotgun costs 1-1 1/2 seconds. First you have to realize you missed, next you have to load that round back in, then you have to aim again and press the trigger. Chances are you will be flustered from miss and there is a higher probability you will miss again. Take your time and don't miss with the shotgun! 

 

Much appreciated.   I will be shooting open with a moded out VR80 so I am not too concerned with the reloading, but no one has ever passed along the missing thing with shotgun.  I can also see where open guys get into a belief they have all the shells in the world, so missing is not a problem.  One thing I do have concerns about is using the appropriate choke for a given stage.  I am sure that is something that comes with time though depending on your own rig.  

[shred]

Kurt's point about pistols brings up a suggestion around 3-gun pistol.  IME (and that's not a lot of it TBH), it's often pretty boring.  Either a raft of 15-yard small steel plates which a newbie is going to dump all their mags on to get a handful of hits or a bunch of wide-open paper at 3 yards which is fun for only small values of time.

 

One  of the match staff at a major years ago said "you should like" the all-steel 40+ round pistol stage they had setup, but my answer was more along the lines of "I'll do well at it, but don't really like it".  It was all 15-18-yard small steel, just wander along the shooting area and shoot. plink.. plink... plink..., reload plink... plink... plink....  Meh.  Think I beat Jerry on it though, but that was about it.

 

I've heard that 'good' 3-gun matches have pistol sections that look more like USPSA stages, but haven't run into one myself.

 

 

[Boomstick303]

7 minutes ago, kurtm said:

Welcome Boomstick303, I hope you have a great time! I will give you a small slice of advice. Working gear is #1. A good zero on your rifle and pistol is #2..... Now for unsolicited advice.....

 

I shoot 2 Gun, Carbine and USPSA, so I know my way around guns, zeros, etc.  Not too worried about that.  I assume you sight the shotgun in at 100 yds for slugs.  But I am guessing at that.  

[outerlimits]

2 hours ago, shred said:

Kurt's point about pistols brings up a suggestion around 3-gun pistol.  IME (and that's not a lot of it TBH), it's often pretty boring.  Either a raft of 15-yard small steel plates which a newbie is going to dump all their mags on to get a handful of hits or a bunch of wide-open paper at 3 yards which is fun for only small values of time.

 

One  of the match staff at a major years ago said "you should like" the all-steel 40+ round pistol stage they had setup, but my answer was more along the lines of "I'll do well at it, but don't really like it".  It was all 15-18-yard small steel, just wander along the shooting area and shoot. plink.. plink... plink..., reload plink... plink... plink....  Meh.  Think I beat Jerry on it though, but that was about it.

 

I've heard that 'good' 3-gun matches have pistol sections that look more like USPSA stages, but haven't run into one myself.

 

 

do yourself a favor and shoot superstition.  it is always an awesome match, challenging every too you have.

[kurtm]

Well, great stages took a powder when match directors quit designing stages with a purpose in mind, or what I call scenario based stages. Shred hits it on the head!!! Sorry couldn't resist. Too many match directors tell their set up staff, just scatter a bunch of targets out there with a stupid high round count.... It will be great! Hide a bunch of them so it takes a while..... Well that blows!!! High round count doesn't equal fun! Now high round count can be very fun.... If it has a point. And low round count can be very challenging and fun. When I design stages I keep in mind what shooting aspect I want to test, is it changing magazines prone, am I testing shotgunshell holders from low kneeling in a port... Can you load with what you have? Am I testing concentration? Am I testing front sight awareness? Every stage should have a point! The I'm gonna have the largest round count shotgun stage ever isn't a point, and it isn't fun! Shot a stage today at our monthly that was incredible! 20 rounds rifle and 13 rounds of shotgun, fast time was 40 seconds, and it was so damn busy that everyone left that stage with a huge grin! Tested a rifle mag change, tested shotgun loading system in a very tight area, and tested the hell out of a front sight focus. This stage was in a bay 20 yds wide and 30 yards deep. The shooting was actually very easy, but with the tight shooting areas, and a change your rifle mag "somewhere" along the line it was a mind game and a half. Far better than " just scatter a bunch of crap out there and hike the round count cause folk just want to shoot a lot!!!" 

[mmc45414]

When a new person hits par time while trying to reload a shotgun it is not much fun, especially if that means your stage ends up being one gun instead of three gun. 

 

I started about the time ammo got scarce, and IMO that improved the shotgun stages.  If that had not transitioned and stages continued to require a ton of quad loading skill or a magazine fed gun to just complete stages at a local club level match I probably would have dropped out. 

[TonytheTiger]

11 hours ago, mmc45414 said:

When a new person hits par time while trying to reload a shotgun it is not much fun, especially if that means your stage ends up being one gun instead of three gun. 

I've seen this happen so many times on stages requiring less than 10 rounds of shotgun. The real problem it takes those guys an average of 5 rounds per target. It's not the fault of the stage that most people that can't load a shotgun also can't hit anything with it.

People will time out no matter what you do, and catering to it with stage designs will chase away experienced shooters.

[3gunDMD]

1 minute ago, TonytheTiger said:

I've seen this happen so many times on stages requiring less than 10 rounds of shotgun. The real problem it takes those guys an average of 5 rounds per target. It's not the fault of the stage that most people that can't load a shotgun also can't hit anything with it.

People will time out no matter what you do, and catering to it with stage designs will chase away experienced shooters.

People act like loading a shotgun is some insanely difficult task. I learned how to quad load in 30 minutes. It’s not that hard. 

[TonytheTiger]

On 2/10/2023 at 10:59 AM, kurtm said:

Here is the most important point! Shotgun is a DON'T MISS firearm. No matter how fast you load, no matter how fast you can shoot every miss with a shotgun costs 1-1 1/2 seconds. 

This is what it all comes down to. The people that complain the most about shotgun loading are also doing way more of it than they need to.

[TonytheTiger]

Just now, 3gunDMD said:

People act like loading a shotgun is some insanely difficult task. I learned how to quad load in 30 minutes. It’s not that hard. 

Exactly. People don't like putting in effort and shotgun loading is the easiest thing to blame their poor results on.

[louu]

12 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

Exactly. People don't like putting in effort and shotgun loading is the easiest thing to blame their poor results on.

It's also the easiest thing to learn. 10 minutes a day for 2 weeks and your a pro. 

[RJH]

I like shotgun, but it is the revolver portion of three gun. That's why a lot of people don't like it. Even after a long layoff like I stated in my other post I didn't time out on stages except one or I screwed up loading a shotgun, but that has nothing to do with the shotgun, that has to do with me getting a shell under a lifter LOL. So don't think I'm complaining about the shotgun there. Just stating that it's easy to not time out, and on the rest of the stages I was using caddy's not even dropping deuces

 

I think shotgun is an integral part of three gun, not just cuz it's called three gun either LOL, but it's also a thing that match directors can get real stupid about real quick.

 

I know a lot of y'all are saying just learn to load the shotgun, and that's true to an extent but I bet everybody has a 10 or 12 round tube on their gun, so they have to load it as little as possible. That might be when shotgun began to get real stupid is when you needed a full-blown race shotgun, versus an eight round "tactical" style shotgun. Match directors saw those 12 round tubes and decided to make 30 round sections of shotgun to match.

 

 

Anyway, shotgun can be real fun and shouldn't be a struggle to reload. But if your haji suicide looking vest doesn't hold enough shells to make it through a stage, that's when it gets to be a problem. Keep it around 20 rounds Max and nobody should have an issue with a shotgun

[mmc45414]

I am pretty new to three gun.  I know what I experienced initially, and I know what people express as a reason not to come out when I invite them to come along.  And I see new people come out that show up with a suitable rifle and a suitable pistol and an unsuitable shotgun, they show up a couple times and then not so much. 

[RJH]

So, I had a couple more thoughts on a three-gun recession deal as I was driving around this morning. They could have already been discussed in this thread, I actually went back and read it a few weeks back but I can't remember now

 

Here's a few things that I think maybe causing a little bit of a three-gun recession:

 

Partimes that limited shooters can't make. Now I know people are going to say nobody shoots limited, but the one reason nobody shoots limited is that it's a pain in the ass even if you like irons because targets aren't painted, targets are obscured, targets are the same color as the dirt they're sitting by, etc. I'm a fairly good irons shooter and actually prefer shooting irons, but I put a scope on my rifle because of the things listed above. It sucks when you shoot right with everybody else in tacops, but then you get to the rifle section and can't make the hits, not cuz you're not a good shot simply because you can't see the target.

 

Dots on pistols. I'm beginning to think in USPSA that dots on pistols have definitely made for tighter shots overall in matches. Whether or not that's a plus is up for debate, but what it has done is almost require a DOT on a pistol. Now since everybody has a DOT on their pistol that shoots USPSA, if they also shoot three gun and set stages there, they're going to make those pistol shots harder.

 

So now we've required a scope on the rifle and a DOT on a pistol 

 

Shotgun we've discussed a lot on this thread so I won't even delve into that part.

 

So when a new shooter shows up, realizes his Red Dot on his rifle basically means he's going to time out, he can't make the pistol shots because they're tight on small steel and he doesn't have a DOT, and then he needs a shotgun with a big tube etc, it might be enough to turn them off before they ever get started

 

 

I guess generally what I'm saying is a match director needs to set stages that a guy shooting limited that is fairly proficient has no trouble not timing out on. I don't think that is the case many times. I think match directors set stages for people shooting tackups and maybe even really open at this point. And I think the new modified division is just going to reinforce all the points I've already made

 

 

I know some people will say if you're going to play you just got to buy the equipment, and I get that to some extent, but you have to realize that as your older people move on from three gun you have to get new shooters to replace them. If you're new shooters feel like they need a $10,000 investment to begin to compete, many of them won't. And they look for something else to do. Anyway, all these points might have already been brought up, and they all might be invalid but I think they do make some sense

[shred]

I too have noticed that the prevalence of dots tends to cause MDs to make the shooting more difficult, because "everyone has a dot"

 

I don't think stages were any less fun when they were designed by 10-round Production shooters and I was shooting a hicap Open gun.  The best shooters always separate themselves on points and time, no matter what the targets are.

 

[3gunDMD]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

So, I had a couple more thoughts on a three-gun recession deal as I was driving around this morning. They could have already been discussed in this thread, I actually went back and read it a few weeks back but I can't remember now

 

Here's a few things that I think maybe causing a little bit of a three-gun recession:

 

Partimes that limited shooters can't make. Now I know people are going to say nobody shoots limited, but the one reason nobody shoots limited is that it's a pain in the ass even if you like irons because targets aren't painted, targets are obscured, targets are the same color as the dirt they're sitting by, etc. I'm a fairly good irons shooter and actually prefer shooting irons, but I put a scope on my rifle because of the things listed above. It sucks when you shoot right with everybody else in tacops, but then you get to the rifle section and can't make the hits, not cuz you're not a good shot simply because you can't see the target.

 

Dots on pistols. I'm beginning to think in USPSA that dots on pistols have definitely made for tighter shots overall in matches. Whether or not that's a plus is up for debate, but what it has done is almost require a DOT on a pistol. Now since everybody has a DOT on their pistol that shoots USPSA, if they also shoot three gun and set stages there, they're going to make those pistol shots harder.

 

So now we've required a scope on the rifle and a DOT on a pistol 

 

Shotgun we've discussed a lot on this thread so I won't even delve into that part.

 

So when a new shooter shows up, realizes his Red Dot on his rifle basically means he's going to time out, he can't make the pistol shots because they're tight on small steel and he doesn't have a DOT, and then he needs a shotgun with a big tube etc, it might be enough to turn them off before they ever get started

 

 

I guess generally what I'm saying is a match director needs to set stages that a guy shooting limited that is fairly proficient has no trouble not timing out on. I don't think that is the case many times. I think match directors set stages for people shooting tackups and maybe even really open at this point. And I think the new modified division is just going to reinforce all the points I've already made

 

 

I know some people will say if you're going to play you just got to buy the equipment, and I get that to some extent, but you have to realize that as your older people move on from three gun you have to get new shooters to replace them. If you're new shooters feel like they need a $10,000 investment to begin to compete, many of them won't. And they look for something else to do. Anyway, all these points might have already been brought up, and they all might be invalid but I think they do make some sense

Most of the new people that have been showing up already have a dot on their pistol. They usually have a dot + magnifier or LPVO on their rifle so all they need is a $600 shotgun + optic.  Not really all that expensive to get into. 

[Racinready300ex]

8 minutes ago, 3gunDMD said:

Most of the new people that have been showing up already have a dot on their pistol. They usually have a dot + magnifier or LPVO on their rifle so all they need is a $600 shotgun + optic.  Not really all that expensive to get into. 

 

I'm sure that's sorta accurate. I don't 3 gun. I have handguns, I have a AR I basically never use. So in theory I'd just need a shotgun. But, I know from shooting uspsa that'll really just be the beginning. I'm sure I'd be out more than 600 bucks by the time I'm actually setup. And a year in I'll have changed most of my gear as I learn all costing money. 

 

Hell, even in USPSA you can come in with a handgun and still spend $300 just setting up a proper belt. Then you'll probably need $200 on mags and extensions. Then you'll probably hear about all the cool upgrades we allow and you'll of quickly spent more than 600 on a one gun game. 

[RJH]

21 minutes ago, 3gunDMD said:

Most of the new people that have been showing up already have a dot on their pistol. They usually have a dot + magnifier or LPVO on their rifle so all they need is a $600 shotgun + optic.  Not really all that expensive to get into. 

 

Dot and magnifier is not really competitive, there's a reason you don't see them 

 

And a 600 auto shotgun that works is a myth that people like to perpetuate lol. Plus a $300 dollar dot and tax is $1000 for a half way working shotgun. More like 2 grand for a working auto with a dot. 

 

I'll give you the dot on the pistol lol.

 

That still doesn't fix the stage issues though 

[3gunDMD]

5 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Dot and magnifier is not really competitive, there's a reason you don't see them 

 

And a 600 auto shotgun that works is a myth that people like to perpetuate lol. Plus a $300 dollar dot and tax is $1000 for a half way working shotgun. More like 2 grand for a working auto with a dot. 

 

I'll give you the dot on the pistol lol.

 

That still doesn't fix the stage issues though 

I agree that a magnifier + dot isn’t an optimal setup but it’s definitely good enough for most 3 gun matches, especially locals.  Most of the time it’s not the gear that is holding the shooter back anyway. You could give a new shooter the best gear in the world and their score wouldn’t change much. 
 

plenty of people are showing up with a $600 stock VR80 and a $100 red dot and they run just fine. The ones that don’t run are usually pretty easy to fix, or the shooter is running the wrong ammo. 
 

you can absolutely spend 10k+ on gear but is it necessary to do that in order to have fun and place well at locals? Absolutely not. Most people are spending far less than that, especially since they already have most of the gear. This is what I’ve been seeing the last few years at least. 
 

At my club we try to design stages that even new shooters can have fun with.  Sometimes somebody will time out but that is rare.  We design stages that somebody with an iron sighted pistol and rifle should be able to shoot, unless they have zero fundamentals. Most of the time the shotgun round count per stage is 12-15 rounds. 
 

Even though 3 gun is dying in other areas we keep getting more people showing up and sticking with it. 

[RJH]

8 minutes ago, 3gunDMD said:

 

 

At my club we try to design stages that even new shooters can have fun with.  Sometimes somebody will time out but that is rare.  We design stages that somebody with an iron sighted pistol and rifle should be able to shoot, unless they have zero fundamentals. Most of the time the shotgun round count per stage is 12-15 rounds. 
 

 

 

 

I 100% believe if you are doing this, most of the other stuff doesn't matter.  And if people aren't showing up and continuing to show up at a match like this, there is no getting them to stay in 3gun 

Edited February 13, 2023 by RJH