3-Gun Recession?

[3gunDMD]

32 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'm sure that's sorta accurate. I don't 3 gun. I have handguns, I have a AR I basically never use. So in theory I'd just need a shotgun. But, I know from shooting uspsa that'll really just be the beginning. I'm sure I'd be out more than 600 bucks by the time I'm actually setup. And a year in I'll have changed most of my gear as I learn all costing money. 

 

Hell, even in USPSA you can come in with a handgun and still spend $300 just setting up a proper belt. Then you'll probably need $200 on mags and extensions. Then you'll probably hear about all the cool upgrades we allow and you'll of quickly spent more than 600 on a one gun game. 

That is what tends to happen but is it necessary? Not really. Shooters like buying gear and they justify their purchases by telling themselves it’ll make them better. Most of the time it doesn’t. 

[3gunDMD]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

 

I 100% believe if you are doing this, most of the other stuff doesn't matter.  And if people aren't showing up and continuing to show up at a match like this, there is no getting them to stay in 3gun 

I agree. Not everyone is going to love 3 gun and that’s totally ok, but I try to make the barrier for entry as low as possible, while still having matches that will be fun for high level shooters. 
 

One thing we’ve done to grow things locally is a couple times a year instead of having a 3 gun match, we do a “black rifle” match instead (the last one had 70+ shooters with a wait list).  These matches fill up insanely fast and we have gotten a number of new 3 gunners from these matches. I add everyone from black rifle to the 3 gun mailing list and offer to let people use any gear they’d need to compete in 3 gun. I’m a tactical optics shooter so I don’t have a box magazine fed shotgun, but I let people use my tube guns and have them fill it up all the way. That way they only have throw in a couple shells here and there. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by 3gunDMD

[mmc45414]

On 2/12/2023 at 8:27 PM, TonytheTiger said:

I've seen this happen so many times on stages requiring less than 10 rounds of shotgun. The real problem it takes those guys an average of 5 rounds per target. It's not the fault of the stage that most people that can't load a shotgun also can't hit anything with it.

People will time out no matter what you do, and catering to it with stage designs will chase away experienced shooters.

Enjoy your three gun recession. 

[TonytheTiger]

35 minutes ago, mmc45414 said:

Enjoy your three gun recession. 

So am I wrong? Or you just don't like it because it's true?

[mmc45414]

36 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

So am I wrong? Or you just don't like it because it's true?

Mark Twain probably had it right, truth is somewhere in the middle. 

 

I can assure you I didn't take five shots per target when I started out, but timing out on a 15-20 target stage that was setup by a guy with a magazine hanging out of his shotgun that is so long it might hit him in the junk when he runs was still pretty discouraging. 

 

I can also assure you that I have watched good rifle and pistol shooters show up with a fixed choke Mossberg that will not accept a magazine tube and not come back more than once or twice.  As I mentioned upthread, the layout of the ranges at the local matches I shoot at frequently means that shotgun will go first, so if you struggle with it then you will time out before shooting what you came there to shoot.

 

In my case I am old enough that I can swing spending ~$1500 on something I really don't want that only has one use in life.  I enjoy the challenge and hanging out with my buddies and shooting all three guns.  At this point I actually enjoy the shotgun stages, because the club I shoot at has tempered the high round count shenanigans, motivated by ammo availability and costs, not accommodation of new shooters.  Shooting the shotgun is a ton of fun, extensive reloading not so much. 

Edited February 19, 2023 by mmc45414

[TonytheTiger]

44 minutes ago, mmc45414 said:

Mark Twain probably had it right, truth is somewhere in the middle. 

 

I can assure you I didn't take five shots per target when I started out, but timing out on a 15-20 target stage that was setup by a guy with a magazine hanging out of his shotgun that is so long it might hit him in the junk when he runs was still pretty discouraging. 

 

I can also assure you that I have watched good rifle and pistol shooters show up with a fixed choke Mossberg that will not accept a magazine tube and not come back more than once or twice.  As I mentioned upthread, the layout of the ranges at the local matches I shoot at frequently means that shotgun will go first, so if you struggle with it then you will time out before shooting what you came there to shoot.

 

In my case I am old enough that I can swing spending ~$1500 on something I really don't want that only has one use in life.  I enjoy the challenge and hanging out with my buddies and shooting all three guns.  At this point I actually enjoy the shotgun stages, because the club I shoot at has tempered the high round count shenanigans, motivated by ammo availability and costs, not accommodation of new shooters.  Shooting the shotgun is a ton of fun, extensive reloading not so much. 

I don't know what to tell you.

When I started, 40+ rounds of shotgun in a local match stage was common. No one had box fed guns because they didn't really exist, and if you could actually quad load well you were a stud. 

Everyone got their asses kicked and went home and practiced till they could load 8 in under 6 seconds and go one for one on shotgun targets, because you couldn't buy your way out of this predicament with gear.

No one complained, and those were the best days of 3 gun club matches. 80 spot matches would sell out in under a minute. 

The stages have gotten a bit tame since then, the ambition of the average competitor has tamed immensely. 

Edited February 19, 2023 by TonytheTiger

[mmc45414]

8 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

I don't know what to tell you.

When I started, 40+ rounds of shotgun in a local match stage was common. No one had box fed guns because they didn't really exist, and if you could actually quad load well you were a stud. 

Everyone got their asses kicked and went home and practiced till they could load 8 in under 6 seconds and go one for one on shotgun targets, because you couldn't buy your way out of this predicament with gear.

No one complained, and those were the best days of 3 gun club matches. 80 spot matches would sell out in under a minute. 

The stages have gotten a bit tame since then, the ambition of the average competitor has tamed immensely. 

Probably just a case of then and now.  Back then you could also get 300 12ga shells and a case a beer and wheel them up to checkout in the same cart, now ammo is like a scavenger hunt (getting better).  And I absolutely know shotgun reloading is a barrier when I try to get friends (mostly pistol shooters) to come out with us, even when I explain to them it would be very simple to get squadded together so they could use my shotgun.  People are less inclined to learn a very specific loading task with very specific shell caddy gear that is applicable to only one game.  And at this point pretty much every shooter in the country has an AR (including a lotta GWOT veterans) and would welcome the opportunity to it shoot more, but they probably go watch a few videos of people ripping off quad loads on YT and rethink the notion.  Funny thing is, this situation is probably already mostly fixed at local clubs because of stage adjustments because of ammo acquisition difficulties, but people are probably basing their decisions to not give it a try on what they believe is typical from watching YT.

 

And as far as the people that at least try, IMO par times bite them in the butt.  I do very little USPSA, but are there even any par times anymore?  New people know coming in know they are not going to win, but when they spend all day resetting targets and then don't get an opportunity to at least shoot at them all themselves it certainly diminishes their glee with their newfound recreation.  They typically would be better off if they ran the shotgun dry and took the penalties, but that is not a fun concession to make either. 

 

But maybe a lot of it comes back to ammo shortages, this thread was started when we were in another cycle of shortages.  When you found ammo it cost double or triple, that is probably another significant barrier to attracting new people. 

 

I continue to enjoy it and plan to continue to do it and continue to strive to get better, but since I only started a few years ago I can still relate to the shotgun reloading and (often coupled) timeout frustration. 

[Joe4d]

if you are asking for more than 8 rounds of shotgun in a stage you are shooting yourself in the foot. People say that over and over,, they dont want to come to a shotgun reloading contest. Nor buy box mag shotguns, or special loading equipment. 
EVERY SINGLE thread, going back years about 3 gun says the same thing over and over...
Head in sand,,, head in sand.

[TonytheTiger]

And yet shotgun jungle runs continue to be a staple feature at any major match due to popular demand.

If a match round count looks like 200 rifle, 180 pistol and 29 shotgun can still call it 3 gun at that point?

For every two shooter I've seen show up once and never return, I can think of at least one shooter that stopped shooting because of stages increasingly catering to new shooters.

You may not have kept the one and done guys no matter what you did, but you lost a guy that was already in that you could've retained. He was a better bet as a customer.

Edited February 19, 2023 by TonytheTiger

[TonytheTiger]

4 hours ago, mmc45414 said:

And as far as the people that at least try, IMO par times bite them in the butt.  I do very little USPSA, but are there even any par times anymore?  

I've never seen anyone time out in USPSA but I've seen a lot of people run out of all 60 rounds they brought onto an 18 round stage many times. It's the same concept, you get out exactly what you put in.

 

Look, I'm not here to argue with you, in fact I can't really argue with most of your points as they are all valid. Where we differ is our perception of where the problem lies. You say it's stages, I say it's lack of determination in the shooters mindset.

[villageidiot]

Breakdown for the first local "3gun" match of the year. The same club brought in 38 people for a shotgun only match last year.

Edited March 7, 2023 by villageidiot
Context.

[RJH]

So as I get a little more interested in 3 gun after shooting a match a couple of months ago I started looking at shotguns..... 

 

I definitely understand the issue with them as a noob. Cause I had forgotten the headache in finding the right thing. 

 

Basically it boils down to:

 

1 shoot tacops or modified and put together a $2000ish Benelli and add in some load 2 or quad equipment. Probably the most reliable gun, but still hand loading which kinda sucks 

 

2 spend $2500+ for a reliable box fed gun. I like this idea but damn it's expensive. I would have as much in it than my pistol and rifle combined, and it will still probably have more issues than my pistol and rifle combined

 

3 continue with a pump like the poor I am. I will probably keep doing this at least for the foreseeable future. While I know I'm giving up a little bit of time, nothing drives me up the wall as much as a gun that gives me issues. The only ones I really trust in the automatic field to not give me any issue is an M2 and maybe a Franchi. All of the other Auto loaders I've seen tend to have the one commonality of people fighting with them. 

 

 

 

I don't know what the answer is the fixing shotgun and getting more people interested in three gun, but I still don't want to shoot 2 guns in a 3 gun match. Lol

 

 

[TonytheTiger]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

3 continue with a pump like the poor I am. I will probably keep doing this at least for the foreseeable future. While I know I'm giving up a little bit of time, nothing drives me up the wall as much as a gun that gives me issues. The only ones I really trust in the automatic field to not give me any issue is an M2 and maybe a Franchi. All of the other Auto loaders I've seen tend to have the one commonality of people fighting with them. 

4) Buy a 1301 for $1200 add a tube and some port work and never touch it till after 10k rounds when it should get all new springs.

 

M2's aren't the magical malfunction-less guns people make them out to be. That reputation is just a holdover from the days when it really was the only good choice. 

[RJH]

26 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

4) Buy a 1301 for $1200 add a tube and some port work and never touch it till after 10k rounds when it should get all new springs

 

26 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

 

 

That's about the same base price is an M2. Is the 1301 drilled and tapped in case I decided to do modified? Also what does good actual Port work cost to have done. I could short bus it at home, but would hate to screw up a $1,200 shotgun LOL. And then with a Benelli or a 1301 I still have to buy some good load two or quad loading stuff, mag tubes, etc. So that's all kind of figured into the $2,000. Right now I'm bumming a cumberbund when I need it and otherwise just using some caddies or something on small stages. 

 

 

I guess I'm really trying to wrap my head around what a solid reliable three gun shotgun it's going to cost turn key. I keep landing around two grand for a tacops shotgun. Of course modified would cost you a little more with a dot but I ain't even really concerning myself with that yet. 

 

But, if I get a little more serious about it I don't mind spending the two grand as much as I would mind spending one grand on something that's going to give me  headaches. And I think that's worth something like a 940 Mossberg, or a vr80 might end up. Everybody I see trying to cheap out on the shotgun ends up with a Benelli, so that's why I just figured I would start there. But maybe the Beretta ads solid as well.

 

 

But then when I end up at two grand on a tachops/modified shotgun, I start really considering throwing a little extra at it and buying a box fed gun, but trying to figure out what is actually a good gun in that field is really confusing. For every great review of something like a vr-80, there's somebody else saying go ahead and spend $2500-3000 on Brand x cuz that's where you're going to end up anyway, and I really don't trust Turkish shotguns in general lol

 

 

So that's where my analysis paralysis is sitting at this moment

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by RJH

[TonytheTiger]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 Is the 1301 drilled and tapped in case I decided to do modified? Also what does good actual Port work cost to have done.

 

Yes, and no idea, I don't know many people that have paid for port work.

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

Yes, and no idea, I don't know many people that have paid for port work.

 

[3gunDMD]

55 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

4) Buy a 1301 for $1200 add a tube and some port work and never touch it till after 10k rounds when it should get all new springs.

 

M2's aren't the magical malfunction-less guns people make them out to be. That reputation is just a holdover from the days when it really was the only good choice. 

What springs need to be replaced?  

 

I like the 1301 way better than the m2.  The loading port definitely takes a bit more work than the m2 but the gun seems to be able to handle a wider variety of loads, and the gun shoots much softer than a m2 (at least the comp pro does, not sure about the standard 1301 comp).  

[3gunDMD]

31 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

That's about the same base price is an M2. Is the 1301 drilled and tapped in case I decided to do modified? Also what does good actual Port work cost to have done. I could short bus it at home, but would hate to screw up a $1,200 shotgun LOL. And then with a Benelli or a 1301 I still have to buy some good load two or quad loading stuff, mag tubes, etc. So that's all kind of figured into the $2,000. Right now I'm bumming a cumberbund when I need it and otherwise just using some caddies or something on small stages. 

 

 

I guess I'm really trying to wrap my head around what a solid reliable three gun shotgun it's going to cost turn key. I keep landing around two grand for a tacops shotgun. Of course modified would cost you a little more with a dot but I ain't even really concerning myself with that yet. 

 

But, if I get a little more serious about it I don't mind spending the two grand as much as I would mind spending one grand on something that's going to give me  headaches. And I think that's worth something like a 940 Mossberg, or a vr80 might end up. Everybody I see trying to cheap out on the shotgun ends up with a Benelli, so that's why I just figured I would start there. But maybe the Beretta ads solid as well.

 

 

But then when I end up at two grand on a tachops/modified shotgun, I start really considering throwing a little extra at it and buying a box fed gun, but trying to figure out what is actually a good gun in that field is really confusing. For every great review of something like a vr-80, there's somebody else saying go ahead and spend $2500-3000 on Brand x cuz that's where you're going to end up anyway, and I really don't trust Turkish shotguns in general lol

 

 

So that's where my analysis paralysis is sitting at this moment

 

The 1301 comp pro receiver is drilled/tapped.    It's definitely the most reliable 3 gun shotgun I've seen so far.   As far as open shotguns go.... I've seen VR80's that are great and VR80's that suck.  The dissident shotguns seem really nice but I've seen plenty of them choke at major matches.  I guess that's just part of shooting open.  I'd rather stick with a reliable tube gun than a box magazine fed shotgun that has intermittent problems.  

[RJH]

11 minutes ago, 3gunDMD said:

The 1301 comp pro receiver is drilled/tapped.    It's definitely the most reliable 3 gun shotgun I've seen so far.   As far as open shotguns go.... I've seen VR80's that are great and VR80's that suck.  The dissident shotguns seem really nice but I've seen plenty of them choke at major matches.  I guess that's just part of shooting open.  I'd rather stick with a reliable tube gun than a box magazine fed shotgun that has intermittent problems.  

 

Right. That's my fear with any of the box fed guns, even though I would much rather go that route if they were reliable.

 

[mmc45414]

A couple of points:

 

The 1301 Comp is also going to give you a nice shotgun for other things.  I have the 21" and with a TacOps length tube it is really a sweet package that would be very viable as a defensive shotgun.  The mag tubes spin off and on easy, and it is simple to have a couple alternatives.  Now that I will probably just shoot open I wish I had bought the 24", and that gun would be right at home shooting skeet or sporting clays or casual trap, or hunting.

 

A box magazine gun is good for this, and only this, and the magazines are expensive.  A 1301 is a nice shotgun that could come in handy for lots of things.

 

The 1301 Comp comes on the longer receiver and has a decent loading port as it comes, I have short fingers and just twin load, and I am not in a big hurry to open it up. 

 

The 1301 Comp is tapped, I just received the Rusty Nutz mount for mine and am going to install a MRO before the next match.  Just note that there ay many mounts for the 1301 Tactical, and the mounts are not the same.

 

The professional porting work doesn't seem to cost all that much, but shipping is more of a hassle and expense than it ever was. 

[RJH]

After doing a little more searching, I think if and when I buy a shotgun for three gun it's going to be a franchi affinity 3. I'll just do the port work myself. I do think I can come out pretty reasonably on that gun and I think it'll work. They do come drilled and tapped and I can even get them in left hand for about the same money as a right-handed gun. 

 

Unless anybody knows of any great reason to not buy a Franchi.......

[kurtm]

Couple things here, the M1 super 90 was the first good choice not the M2. As things stand today the M2 is still the gun all others aspire to be, although the 1301 is showing the most promise of being it's equal.

Next this is supposed to be a thread about how everybody hates shotguns, so enough of this "fanboy love" for the "gauge" and back to discussing the demise of 3-Gun.

[3gunDMD]

5 hours ago, RJH said:

After doing a little more searching, I think if and when I buy a shotgun for three gun it's going to be a franchi affinity 3. I'll just do the port work myself. I do think I can come out pretty reasonably on that gun and I think it'll work. They do come drilled and tapped and I can even get them in left hand for about the same money as a right-handed gun. 

 

Unless anybody knows of any great reason to not buy a Franchi.......

I’ve heard really good things about the franchi, but don’t have any experience with them myself. 

[RJH]

1 minute ago, 3gunDMD said:

I’ve heard really good things about the franchi, but don’t have any experience with them myself. 

 

The couple I've seen have worked good, and they're not made in Turkey so that gives me some hope LOL. I'm not going to win a national championship regardless of what gun I get, I just want something that works without headache. And on shotguns that's a pretty short list it seems

[3gunDMD]

Just now, RJH said:

 

The couple I've seen have worked good, and they're not made in Turkey so that gives me some hope LOL. I'm not going to win a national championship regardless of what gun I get, I just want something that works without headache. And on shotguns that's a pretty short list it seems

I think Aaron Hayes recommends them. I’d email or call him to see what he thinks.