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I recently moved and decided to pick up 3 Gun and USPSA. I think 3 Gun needs a larger governing body (I.e. 3GN) as well as intro course/classes. I think a big part that attracts people to USPSA is the classification system. I have a friend across the country and we still compete to see who can place higher in the same division. I think if 3 Gun had a similar classifying system more people would be interested in competing. This way it’s a game but each match has a higher meaning. Set up classifier stages on a standard 50 yard bay that gets you through all 3 guns most likely without having to load anything unless you miss. Then at the end of the match rather then compare yourself to the pro’s you can compare to others in your division/class. I think they should play with the divisions a little but rule set wise. Mag fed shotguns are becoming more and more reasonably priced so I feel like a limited mag fed shotgun might take away the loading barrier. Limit mags to 8 or so. I was able to pick up loading in a match or two and am pretty comfortable with it now but I think the mag fed helps encourage the older generation to still participate. A consistent rule set is also required action from that governing body for sure. I was lucky enough to find a range locally that runs monthly matches that aren’t particularly long. Usually 6 stages starts at 9 ends around 1. Personally 3 Gun is a lot more fun to me than any USPSA match but at the end of the day do what you love.

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3 hours ago, Maxwell914 said:

I recently moved and decided to pick up 3 Gun and USPSA. I think 3 Gun needs a larger governing body (I.e. 3GN) as well as intro course/classes. I think a big part that attracts people to USPSA is the classification system. I have a friend across the country and we still compete to see who can place higher in the same division. I think if 3 Gun had a similar classifying system more people would be interested in competing. This way it’s a game but each match has a higher meaning. Set up classifier stages on a standard 50 yard bay that gets you through all 3 guns most likely without having to load anything unless you miss. Then at the end of the match rather then compare yourself to the pro’s you can compare to others in your division/class. I think they should play with the divisions a little but rule set wise. Mag fed shotguns are becoming more and more reasonably priced so I feel like a limited mag fed shotgun might take away the loading barrier. Limit mags to 8 or so. I was able to pick up loading in a match or two and am pretty comfortable with it now but I think the mag fed helps encourage the older generation to still participate. A consistent rule set is also required action from that governing body for sure. I was lucky enough to find a range locally that runs monthly matches that aren’t particularly long. Usually 6 stages starts at 9 ends around 1. Personally 3 Gun is a lot more fun to me than any USPSA match but at the end of the day do what you love.

no one wants to have 3 gun classifiers, period.  plus, tactical is so close to open now a days that allowing mag fed shotguns would kill the divisions.  since uspsa is trying to kill 3gun with 2 gun, all that will be left are outlaw matches anyway, and i'm fine with that.  3gun was always a black sheep for uspsa.

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3GN used to have classifiers. Some of them were decent, like a regular 3g stage but shorter, maybe 25-35 seconds if you're good. But most were like a USPSA classifier with 1-2 guns, sub 10 seconds. Not only were they boring, they always log jammed the match flow because the stage after it was the usual 40+ seconds. In the two years I shot them I met one person that took them as seriously as a C class USPSA shooter. No one seems to miss them.

 

I agree it needs one governing body with a consistent rule set, but making a huge change to the most stable and well attended division is going to piss off more current shooters than it will bring in new ones. If a person thinks they need a rule change before they'll even try 3 gun, they'll be certain to find more reasons not to try it.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I loved shooting 3 gun but I only had three good matches within a 10 hour drive (that’s per year not month). I shot them for three years until two of them closed (FNH and Pro/Am). I can shoot USPSA every weekend and no match is over a 1 1/2 hour drive. In the north east 3 gun died years ago.

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  • 1 year later...

This is my first post here, and after reading thru this entire thread I want to give some outsider perspective.  IIts gonna be a little long, but this thread is 15 pages and several years long, so bare with me.

On the subject of The Shotgun Issue:
Some background - I just bought my first shotgun - a Beretta 1301 - after a decade of owning and shooting handguns and rifles casually, and I'm pretty psyched to shoot it.  I enjoy shotgun shooting quite a bit, and I am very interested in giving 3 gun a go.

That said, I think you will find there is a very small overlap between the average black rifle/handgun guys and the average shotgun folks.  The skill sets are totally different, the objectives are totally different, and the crowds are totally different.  There are 4 different local gun stores I frequent with staff with deep knowledge on rifles and handguns.  One of them even manufactures their own ARs.  And when I asked for shotgun advice, to a man they were clueless.  When I asked my gun-guy buddies - folks like a dozen ARs and various handguns - I got nothing.  If they had one, it was an 870 or 500 pump they got for cheap for home defense.   

My shotgun buddies, on the other hand...well, they shoot shotgun.  Thats it.  One has a handgun. Neither has a rifle.

Put a pin in that, we'll come back to it.

On the Subject of Attrition:
The question was asked - "Forget worrying about attracting new folks - what happened to all the people who were really into it for years?  Where'd they go?"  

I was an extremely competitive fencer in college.  Yes, fencing - the Olympic swordfighting sport.  I was one of the best in our division and captain of my school team.  Fencing, like shooting, is a sport of the individual, and these have different issues than team sports like softball or football.  There's a different sort of comradery.  In a team you can make up for each other's weakness - as an individual, you're on your own.  

We're all competitive to different degrees, but some prioritize the fun of the hobby on one end while others laser-focus on winning at the other.  Those in the middle like a mix of both. 

The folks that only care about winning - or, put a different way, just can't stand losing - those folks will stay in the hobby as long as they're doing well and once they hit a wall where they just can't figure out how to improve, they get burnt out and quit.

The ones who are only in it for the fun will stay as long as its fun, but once it becomes a chore they quit.  Maybe not immediately, but they'll fade out of the hobby over time.

The ones who stay are the dedicated hobbyists at the top of the middle who are good enough to hold their own and have fun where they are, but still want life balance; and those at the very top - the Miculeks of the world.  The ones at the top inspire the ones in the middle and attract the ones at the bottom.  And the ones at the bottom get taught by the ones in the middle, while also giving the new guys an example of a level of competence they could realistically attain.
 

This dynamic is universal to sports of the individual. I saw it play out in fencing, and you're seeing it play out with 3 gun.

"Forget worrying about attracting new folks - what happened to all the people who were really into it for years?  Where'd they go?"  


The answer is that that group was always in flux.  As one veteran leaves a dedicated former newbie takes his place as a regular intermediate, giving the illusion of a static crowd. 

"Why are the regulars leaving?"  Time, money, loss of interest, burnout, moved out of state.  There's a million reasons, and those reasons are mostly unavoidable because that is just the nature of life.  We all have families and anybody with sports-aged kids are gonna be spending a lot of their saturdays and sundays supporting their tots at the local little league games.  Its just life.

Your focus should always be on...

Getting New People Into The Sport, Pt 1 - The Shotgun Issue
"Its not the shotgun."   Its in the first post of this thread because you all know its the truth, for a whole lot of reasons. As I mentioned earlier the most important one is that most black rifle guys don't already have one, and if they do its one that wouldn't work well for 3 gun.

Most beginners start going with a buddy or two, at least initially.  One guy gets the bug and convinces one or two buddies to try it with him.

 Its pretty easy to call up a rifle/handgun buddy and be like "hey want to want to check out this rifle/handgun thing with me?" And they bring the stuff they already have and already love and fun is had by all.   Its fun to use your toys in a more dynamic context than static paper or steel.  

Its significantly harder to be like "Hey wanna try this 3 gun thing with me?  All you need to do is bring your stuff and also spend $500-$700 on a shotgun you don't actually want!"  And yeah they might say "why not!" have a blast, get hooked, and be glad they bought it. 

Or, much more likely, they'll say "sorry dude, not interested, but I'd be up for the range later."

"Well, they could just borrow one."  From who?  I just got into it, and if my fellow newbie buddy screws up my only shotgun - a valid concern when you're doing all this running around, and both of us are new to this - I'm SOL.  Its just a bad idea overall.

Next comes to the challenge.

Getting New People Into The Sport, Pt 2 - The Learning Curve
"Pfff don't ruin the sport for the rest of us.  Just get good scrub."  You can say this till the cows come home, as your sport shrinks and matches dry up. "The challenge is what got me into it."

There is a fine line between an attainable challenge and a miserable slog.  Most folks have no way of practicing running and gunning outside of these matches.  Its not like you have 2-3 night a week team practices or whatever.  So their only practice is at these competitions.  And while some dudes are masochistic enough to spend a year and thousands on rounds equipment and logistics to go to matches just to learn the bare basics and still be terrible at this courses designed for pros, most people would get discouraged enough to quit going fairly quickly.

I can't tell you how to design a course to be fun for a newbie and still satisfying for a veteran, but thats clearly something that needs to be figured out. 

Forget everything else. 

If you can't get new people interested, your sport is dead. 

End of story.

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Ammo prices are definitely keeping me from doing way less three done right now, although I do plan on doing more of it this year. There is one local club that puts on some pretty solid matches with very big stages for a monthly match that I haven't shot in a couple of years but I'm wanting to do some more. Problem is right now, while the match fee is only 25 or $30, by the time I buy ammo it's about a $200 day for a club match. But I do plan on doing that three or four this year

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On 12/22/2022 at 10:59 AM, Rocketman89 said:

This is my first post here, and after reading thru this entire thread I want to give some outsider perspective.  IIts gonna be a little long, but this thread is 15 pages and several years long, so bare with me.

On the subject of The Shotgun Issue:
Some background - I just bought my first shotgun - a Beretta 1301 - after a decade of owning and shooting handguns and rifles casually, and I'm pretty psyched to shoot it.  I enjoy shotgun shooting quite a bit, and I am very interested in giving 3 gun a go.

That said, I think you will find there is a very small overlap between the average black rifle/handgun guys and the average shotgun folks.  The skill sets are totally different, the objectives are totally different, and the crowds are totally different.  There are 4 different local gun stores I frequent with staff with deep knowledge on rifles and handguns.  One of them even manufactures their own ARs.  And when I asked for shotgun advice, to a man they were clueless.  When I asked my gun-guy buddies - folks like a dozen ARs and various handguns - I got nothing.  If they had one, it was an 870 or 500 pump they got for cheap for home defense.   

My shotgun buddies, on the other hand...well, they shoot shotgun.  Thats it.  One has a handgun. Neither has a rifle.

Put a pin in that, we'll come back to it.

On the Subject of Attrition:
The question was asked - "Forget worrying about attracting new folks - what happened to all the people who were really into it for years?  Where'd they go?"  

I was an extremely competitive fencer in college.  Yes, fencing - the Olympic swordfighting sport.  I was one of the best in our division and captain of my school team.  Fencing, like shooting, is a sport of the individual, and these have different issues than team sports like softball or football.  There's a different sort of comradery.  In a team you can make up for each other's weakness - as an individual, you're on your own.  

We're all competitive to different degrees, but some prioritize the fun of the hobby on one end while others laser-focus on winning at the other.  Those in the middle like a mix of both. 

The folks that only care about winning - or, put a different way, just can't stand losing - those folks will stay in the hobby as long as they're doing well and once they hit a wall where they just can't figure out how to improve, they get burnt out and quit.

The ones who are only in it for the fun will stay as long as its fun, but once it becomes a chore they quit.  Maybe not immediately, but they'll fade out of the hobby over time.

The ones who stay are the dedicated hobbyists at the top of the middle who are good enough to hold their own and have fun where they are, but still want life balance; and those at the very top - the Miculeks of the world.  The ones at the top inspire the ones in the middle and attract the ones at the bottom.  And the ones at the bottom get taught by the ones in the middle, while also giving the new guys an example of a level of competence they could realistically attain.
 

This dynamic is universal to sports of the individual. I saw it play out in fencing, and you're seeing it play out with 3 gun.

"Forget worrying about attracting new folks - what happened to all the people who were really into it for years?  Where'd they go?"  


The answer is that that group was always in flux.  As one veteran leaves a dedicated former newbie takes his place as a regular intermediate, giving the illusion of a static crowd. 

"Why are the regulars leaving?"  Time, money, loss of interest, burnout, moved out of state.  There's a million reasons, and those reasons are mostly unavoidable because that is just the nature of life.  We all have families and anybody with sports-aged kids are gonna be spending a lot of their saturdays and sundays supporting their tots at the local little league games.  Its just life.

Your focus should always be on...

Getting New People Into The Sport, Pt 1 - The Shotgun Issue
"Its not the shotgun."   Its in the first post of this thread because you all know its the truth, for a whole lot of reasons. As I mentioned earlier the most important one is that most black rifle guys don't already have one, and if they do its one that wouldn't work well for 3 gun.

Most beginners start going with a buddy or two, at least initially.  One guy gets the bug and convinces one or two buddies to try it with him.

 Its pretty easy to call up a rifle/handgun buddy and be like "hey want to want to check out this rifle/handgun thing with me?" And they bring the stuff they already have and already love and fun is had by all.   Its fun to use your toys in a more dynamic context than static paper or steel.  

Its significantly harder to be like "Hey wanna try this 3 gun thing with me?  All you need to do is bring your stuff and also spend $500-$700 on a shotgun you don't actually want!"  And yeah they might say "why not!" have a blast, get hooked, and be glad they bought it. 

Or, much more likely, they'll say "sorry dude, not interested, but I'd be up for the range later."

"Well, they could just borrow one."  From who?  I just got into it, and if my fellow newbie buddy screws up my only shotgun - a valid concern when you're doing all this running around, and both of us are new to this - I'm SOL.  Its just a bad idea overall.

Next comes to the challenge.

Getting New People Into The Sport, Pt 2 - The Learning Curve
"Pfff don't ruin the sport for the rest of us.  Just get good scrub."  You can say this till the cows come home, as your sport shrinks and matches dry up. "The challenge is what got me into it."

There is a fine line between an attainable challenge and a miserable slog.  Most folks have no way of practicing running and gunning outside of these matches.  Its not like you have 2-3 night a week team practices or whatever.  So their only practice is at these competitions.  And while some dudes are masochistic enough to spend a year and thousands on rounds equipment and logistics to go to matches just to learn the bare basics and still be terrible at this courses designed for pros, most people would get discouraged enough to quit going fairly quickly.

I can't tell you how to design a course to be fun for a newbie and still satisfying for a veteran, but thats clearly something that needs to be figured out. 

Forget everything else. 

If you can't get new people interested, your sport is dead. 

End of story.

I can't really find anything to disagree with here. It seems reasonably accurate. 

 

That said, I just don't get it.

 

When I started 3 gun (2016?) the attitude from competitors was different. People were motivated. Newbs wanted to get better. We occasionally had heat at the big locals, guys like Tommy Thacker in the early days and Froelich at some a few years later. Even with those guys sometimes showing up, there were no name regulars that could keep them on their toes.

The goal of every newbie was to work hard to get to that level. 

I know, I started by seeing Horner, Garcia etc. on an episode of 3GN playing on a department store display TV of all places and knew I had to try this. 

I wasn't a shotgun guy. I had no friends to tag along with or to talk me into it. But I wanted to be a 3 gun guy and that means shotgun. And practice with it. Because it's called 3 gun. So I became proficient with it.

 

I'm still not a "shotgun guy". I have three, my 1301 match gun and two wall hangers that collect dust. I'm actually not a pistol guy either. That's all besides the point, I'm a pretty dedicated 3 gunner which means I don't use any of that as something to complain about or an aspect that needs changing to accommodate me.

 

Nowadays the feeling I get from new guys is completely different. They aren't hungry anymore. They don't see a new challenge or get their ass kicked and use it as fuel to go home and practice. They usually just complain. Or blame the shotgun. Or just never show up again. They almost have an attitude of entitlement. Like, "I'm here, I paid good money for fees, ammo, gear and in return this match needs to pat me on the back".

It's disheartening to see from my perspective as what's considered an old time 3 gun veteran at this point.

Worse yet are the club matches that seem to be catering to this new mindset. But with locals all drying up it might not be a problem in the future.

 

@ecn515 can't remember if you've chimed in on this thread yet, but you pretty much shoot in the area I do. You see any of this stuff the way I do or am I just becoming the cranky old man of 3 gun and getting pissed at all the young whippersnappers because I think everything was more hardcore back in the day?

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14 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

I can't really find anything to disagree with here. It seems reasonably accurate. 

 

That said, I just don't get it.

 

When I started 3 gun (2016?) the attitude from competitors was different. People were motivated. Newbs wanted to get better. We occasionally had heat at the big locals, guys like Tommy Thacker in the early days and Froelich at some a few years later. Even with those guys sometimes showing up, there were no name regulars that could keep them on their toes.

The goal of every newbie was to work hard to get to that level. 

I know, I started by seeing Horner, Garcia etc. on an episode of 3GN playing on a department store display TV of all places and knew I had to try this. 

I wasn't a shotgun guy. I had no friends to tag along with or to talk me into it. But I wanted to be a 3 gun guy and that means shotgun. And practice with it. Because it's called 3 gun. So I became proficient with it.

 

I'm still not a "shotgun guy". I have three, my 1301 match gun and two wall hangers that collect dust. I'm actually not a pistol guy either. That's all besides the point, I'm a pretty dedicated 3 gunner which means I don't use any of that as something to complain about or an aspect that needs changing to accommodate me.

 

Nowadays the feeling I get from new guys is completely different. They aren't hungry anymore. They don't see a new challenge or get their ass kicked and use it as fuel to go home and practice. They usually just complain. Or blame the shotgun. Or just never show up again. They almost have an attitude of entitlement. Like, "I'm here, I paid good money for fees, ammo, gear and in return this match needs to pat me on the back".

It's disheartening to see from my perspective as what's considered an old time 3 gun veteran at this point.

Worse yet are the club matches that seem to be catering to this new mindset. But with locals all drying up it might not be a problem in the future.

 

@ecn515 can't remember if you've chimed in on this thread yet, but you pretty much shoot in the area I do. You see any of this stuff the way I do or am I just becoming the cranky old man of 3 gun and getting pissed at all the young whippersnappers because I think everything was more hardcore back in the day?

 

Wow!  You took the thoughts right out of my head!  I shot some 3 Gun back in the day, but back then it was mostly a rifle stage, a pistol stage, a shotgun stage, repeat.  This was back at the tail end of the Soldier of Fortune matches and unfortunately I didn't take the opportunity to go.  Like you I saw 3 Gun Nation on TV and it made me want to get back in on the fun.  Unlike many "Shotgun is my favorite power tool" to quote the infamous Pat Kelley.

 

Nolan

Edited by Nolan
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14 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

 

 

Nowadays the feeling I get from new guys is completely different. They aren't hungry anymore. They don't see a new challenge or get their ass kicked and use it as fuel to go home and practice. They usually just complain. Or blame the shotgun. Or just never show up again. They almost have an attitude of entitlement. Like, "I'm here, I paid good money for fees, ammo, gear and in return this match needs to pat me on the back".

It's disheartening to see from my perspective as what's considered an old time 3 gun veteran at this point.

Worse yet are the club matches that seem to be catering to this new mindset. But with locals all drying up it might not be a problem in the future.

 

 

This part of your post I found most relevant. It meshes perfectly with my disdain for the "Level the playing field" mouthpieces. Its the same ones. When I was learning this sport, leveling the playing field meant go home and practice, analyze your past performances and do whatever it takes to get better. Any complaints I had were self focused.

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To me it sounds a bit like USPSA before Production came along.  It wasn't really growing, but the people that shot it were pretty happy with how things were.

 

It wasn't the old "if your gun runs the whole match you'll place in the top half" days anymore and the equipment race where seemingly every month there was a new hotness had died down so gear and rules were by then fairly stable.  

 

Problem was even though it was billed as "practical" and "run what ya brung", when a noob showed up if they wanted to be serious they next had to go buy an Open or Limited pistol and rig.  Not so many took that jump.  Sure you could go home and practice like crazy with what you had, but if you didn't have the gear, it didn't matter much because the match was built for people that did.

 

When Production came along the old guard thought it was dumb, and it played second fiddle until a few really good shooters started shooting it exclusively and made it popular, but it probably saved USPSA from dwindling away as new shooters could actually use what they had or could go get at the gun store and feel competitive, even if they weren't.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing is happening in 3 gun when the noob sees they'll probably need to rework their rifle, get a new rifle scope and comp, find one of the right shotguns and grind it to quad-load, get extension tubes, chest rig and all that and just moves on without giving it much of a shake.  If there was a way to keep them around longer, maybe more would stay.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, shred said:

To me it sounds a bit like USPSA before Production came along.  It wasn't really growing, but the people that shot it were pretty happy with how things were.

 

It wasn't the old "if your gun runs the whole match you'll place in the top half" days anymore and the equipment race where seemingly every month there was a new hotness had died down so gear and rules were by then fairly stable.  

 

Problem was even though it was billed as "practical" and "run what ya brung", when a noob showed up if they wanted to be serious they next had to go buy an Open or Limited pistol and rig.  Not so many took that jump.  Sure you could go home and practice like crazy with what you had, but if you didn't have the gear, it didn't matter much because the match was built for people that did.

 

When Production came along the old guard thought it was dumb, and it played second fiddle until a few really good shooters started shooting it exclusively and made it popular, but it probably saved USPSA from dwindling away as new shooters could actually use what they had or could go get at the gun store and feel competitive, even if they weren't.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing is happening in 3 gun when the noob sees they'll probably need to rework their rifle, get a new rifle scope and comp, find one of the right shotguns and grind it to quad-load, get extension tubes, chest rig and all that and just moves on without giving it much of a shake.  If there was a way to keep them around longer, maybe more would stay.

 

 

 

Lot of truth to this.  Back a long time ago when I first started 3 gunning you could be fairly competitive with your AR you already had basically by adding a comp, your production pistol you already had with the addition of 140 mags, and the pump shotgun you already had with an extended mag tube and some caddies (yep caddies).  Total expenditure to be pretty dadgum competitive was a couple hundred bucks

 

Back then your pump was competitive because a lot of people were using 1100s that wouldn't make it through a match without a malfunction or two. And pumps were easier to load overall flipping them in with caddies because of the lighter mag springs you can use. As soon as everybody started using benelli's and dropping deuces, pumps no longer had the ability to begin to keep up realistically.

 

So then people could start three gun with the AR they already had and maybe at a comp, their production pistol with 140 mm mags, but then they need to spend 1500 bucks or more to have a gun that was fairly competitive, along with the dropping deuces vest etc. Makes it a little tougher for the noob to try out,  even if they showed up with their old pump gun and really liked it. 

 

All that said, a pump and a dropping deuces vest is still a pretty solid rig for a local match and that's what most people are shooting anyway. So yeah, maybe be people are just being whiny 

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17 minutes ago, RJH said:

All that said, a pump and a dropping deuces vest is still a pretty solid rig for a local match and that's what most people are shooting anyway. So yeah, maybe be people are just being whiny 

I can think of plenty of newer shooters that would see their scores improved if they traded in their cheap Turkish box fed guns for a pump. Open being the new hotness and the arrival of inexpensive shotguns has really been a double edged sword.

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42 minutes ago, mpeltier said:

 

This part of your post I found most relevant. It meshes perfectly with my disdain for the "Level the playing field" mouthpieces. Its the same ones. When I was learning this sport, leveling the playing field meant go home and practice, analyze your past performances and do whatever it takes to get better. Any complaints I had were self focused.

I'm tempted to use heart emojis.

The mindset has drastically changed in the last three years.

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49 minutes ago, shred said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing is happening in 3 gun when the noob sees they'll probably need to rework their rifle, get a new rifle scope and comp, find one of the right shotguns and grind it to quad-load, get extension tubes, chest rig and all that and just moves on without giving it much of a shake.  If there was a way to keep them around longer, maybe more would stay.

 

 

Yes and no. A purpose built rifle or 3 second quads will help. As in, help you get from an upper mid packer to an 80 percenter.

Most of the new guys I RO are forgetting half the targets and going to war mag dumping on 12" plates at 100 yards. They don't need any special equipment yet. 

 They get discouraged by this and somehow their takeaway is usually to blame all their failures on not having Honcho money or not having a Dissident.

Like I said, the desire to get better by self analysis is missing with the new crowd.

Edited by TonytheTiger
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29 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

I can think of plenty of newer shooters that would see their scores improved if they traded in their cheap Turkish box fed guns for a pump. Open being the new hotness and the arrival of inexpensive shotguns has really been a double edged sword.

 

I still shoot a pump but was thinking about some box fed shotgun, but figured the out of the box reliability was suspect at best. 

 

Even considered a 590m, but I will probably just stick with my 1300

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On 12/24/2022 at 12:30 PM, shred said:

 saved USPSA from dwindling away as new shooters could actually use what they had or could go get at the gun store and feel competitive, even if they weren't.

 

On 12/24/2022 at 1:18 PM, TonytheTiger said:

Yes and no. A purpose built rifle or 3 second quads will help. As in, help you get from an upper mid packer to an 80 percenter.

Most of the new guys I RO are forgetting half the targets and going to war mag dumping on 12" plates at 100 yards. They don't need any special equipment yet. 

 They get discouraged by this and somehow their takeaway is usually to blame all their failures on not having Honcho money or not having a Dissident.

Like I said, the desire to get better by self analysis is missing with the new crowd.

 

It's always been about "feeling" competitive, not reality.  I argued this way back then too.  The dudes that showed up to a 1997 USPSA match with a stock Glock 17 would have been way better off score-wise for the first year learning to shoot that rather than go buy a .40 Limited gun, race holster and belt, but that's not how many people think.  They think "I need the special gear, then I can look at what I need to work on" or wildly misjudge the gear advantage and think "I don't want to enter my Toyota Corolla in a F1 race"

 

Some people think otherwise or want to jump in anyway, but plenty will just move on.  3-gun needs a way to hook them for a while.

 

 

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I shoot 3 gun whenever i can, i love the shotgun portion of it. but our local 3 gun matches are all dying. The tactical world has all but abandoned the shotgun as a viable tool. barrier to entry lies solely on the shotgun expenditures. I believe the future is 2 gun

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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You could reduce both the perceived gear-ness and perceived skill issues if each stage only had you do two "reloads". And no more. And they can't be two of the same gun.

 

So all you would ever have to carry is one extra pistol mag, one extra rifle mag and one tube/magazine worth for the shot gun. And in any stage you'd only be doing two reloads. 

 

Just a simple rethink of how the stages are shot and the amount a person has to carry. You can still have and use all the stuff you have currently. But you just wouldn't need it as much.

 

To win you'd still need all the same skills but with the reloading turned way down across the board I think it would be easier for new people to stick. 

But I only ever shot like 2 a year, so consider it an outside opinion. 

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i think i said it upstream, but just offer a 2 gun option, esp if most of the shotgun targets can be shot with handgun.  the couple of matches locally with that option have a bunch of 2 gun shooters.  shotgun just adds a ton of complexity and logistics - shot vs slug, different chokes, shell holders in the way of everything.  pistol holstered, rifle slung, now you have a 3rd gun to carry to stages on top of your gear bag.  then you have MD's making shotguns something they aren't - 50-100+ yard slug shots with smoothbores and even worse on spinners.

 

if there are no other matches that day i'll do a 3 gun-only match, but i'll pick 2 gun or 2 gun option every day.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Our local ranges are dropping 3gun for the most part due to attendance and no help with setup. People locally still enjoy it but with ammo costs still high for shotgun people are opting for 2 gun, USPSA, PRS, or NRL22.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Shot my first 3 gun match since 2018 today. I shot open with a half ass tacops rifle, CO pistol with big sticks, and a pump shotgun.  Good match for coming out of retirement lol,  here's some thoughts:

 

Rifle, shots were only out to 275 or so but we're no issue. Thought I did ok here

 

Pistol, I knew shots were going to be longer than normal, that is why I went with the dot and shot open instead of tacops. Shot out 117 yards with the pistol, and several in the 30-70 yard range. Did get all my hits out there. Is that pretty common now? I know 50 used to be a pretty far shot and only one or two a match

 

Shotgun. Other than screwing up and putting a round under a lifter on the first stage which caused a time out I wasn't too upset with the rest of the day. 

 

So overall thoughts: 

 

3 gun is still a loooooong day. With a lot of s#!t to mess with 

 

I don't want to shoot 2 gun at a 3 gun match. 

 

I need to load sg better, or at least not screw it up.  I will probably never be hyper competitive in three gun, so imagine I will just stick with the pump gun as I don't think the pump gun in itself cost me too much time today. Definitely not enough to lose the Cadillac

 

I still plan on shooting about three more this year. I think four a year will be my max. Just too long a day for me to put more time in it than that. 

 

 

3 gun was fun again and I think it will continue to be in moderation lol

 

 

 

 

 

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On 1/28/2023 at 7:44 PM, RJH said:

Shot out 117 yards with the pistol, and several in the 30-70 yard range. 

 

not a fan of matches/directors that want to go way over the top.  whether 100+yd shots with a smoothbore or 50+ with a handgun.  i mean, we have a friggin rifle in this game, so why the crazy crap with handgun or shottie?

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28 minutes ago, davsco said:

not a fan of matches/directors that want to go way over the top.  whether 100+yd shots with a smoothbore or 50+ with a handgun.  i mean, we have a friggin rifle in this game, so why the crazy crap with handgun or shottie?

 

Or twenty round shotgun stages.  IMO the ammo shortage has helped to improve the game, so that people with normal shotguns do not automatically par time out. 

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On 1/28/2023 at 5:44 PM, RJH said:

I don't want to shoot 2 gun at a 3 gun match. 

 

This is why I worked with local clubs and range to create a 2 Gun match which runs 3 times a year.  I knew others feel as you do.  It has been a big hit.  Two of the matches were full with people on the wait list and the other match was about 6-10 shooters from being full.  

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