3-Gun Recession?

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, 3gunDMD said:

I think Aaron Hayes recommends them. I’d email or call him to see what he thinks. 

 

That the Hayes custom guy?

[3gunDMD]

Just now, RJH said:

 

That the Hayes custom guy?

Yep. He’s a nice guy 

[mmc45414]

13 minutes ago, kurtm said:

enough of this "fanboy love" for the "gauge" and back to discussing the demise of 3-Gun.

Well, I have been thinking about this a little more...

 

As I expressed upthread, maybe overly ambitious par times might be discouraging new shooters, and might be one of the easiest things to adjust.  And maybe my local club that I have most all of my 3gun experience at is maybe kinda ambitious with their par times.

 

Everybody wants to get done and get things put away and get out of the heat/cold and get home and grab a beer, but if 40 people show up, and there are four stages, and as many as ten percent hit the par time, if the par times were 150sec instead of 90sec, and all of those ten people still used it all up, that is all of sixteen minutes (going to these matches takes me at least six hours).

[3gunDMD]

1 hour ago, mmc45414 said:

Well, I have been thinking about this a little more...

 

As I expressed upthread, maybe overly ambitious par times might be discouraging new shooters, and might be one of the easiest things to adjust.  And maybe my local club that I have most all of my 3gun experience at is maybe kinda ambitious with their par times.

 

Everybody wants to get done and get things put away and get out of the heat/cold and get home and grab a beer, but if 40 people show up, and there are four stages, and as many as ten percent hit the par time, if the par times were 150sec instead of 90sec, and all of those ten people still used it all up, that is all of sixteen minutes (going to these matches takes me at least six hours).

We try to avoid par times most of the time. If there is a stage that has a decent amount of rifle steel, we will set a very generous par time. Mostly to discourage people from dumping 3 magazines at a C zone 200 yards away when their rifle isn’t even zeroed properly. 

[TonytheTiger]

21 hours ago, 3gunDMD said:

What springs need to be replaced?  

 

I like the 1301 way better than the m2.  The loading port definitely takes a bit more work than the m2 but the gun seems to be able to handle a wider variety of loads, and the gun shoots much softer than a m2 (at least the comp pro does, not sure about the standard 1301 comp).  

To be fair, when I first got the gun I got carried away cutting springs to optimize everything to 110%, and probably shortened the service life of them considerably. And, I replaced most of them at the same time, so I can't say exactly which ones were the problem. All I know is I had like four malfunctions spread across a summer and it freaked me out and caused lots of lost sleep, because I'd had like five malfunctions in six years up to that point.

So I went ahead and did the action spring, shell latch spring, shell lifter spring and a couple others. Been great since then.

 

I too greatly prefer the 1301 to the M2. I actually like the receiver shape better for port work too, the receiver walls being way thicker allows you to make a wider "funnel" if that makes sense.

[TonytheTiger]

4 hours ago, kurtm said:

Couple things here, the M1 super 90 was the first good choice not the M2. As things stand today the M2 is still the gun all others aspire to be, although the 1301 is showing the most promise of being it's equal.

Next this is supposed to be a thread about how everybody hates shotguns, so enough of this "fanboy love" for the "gauge" and back to discussing the demise of 3-Gun.

Forgot all about the M1. 

But clearly we love shotguns, because our shotgun hate thread has turned into a shotgun buying thread.

 

As to the demise of 3 Gun, just to add a data point, the WI 3G Championship, a well attended match near me was canceled this year and replaced by a 2 gun match because apparently people keep asking for it. Last I looked it had 9 registered after months of being open. Which reinforces my theory about all the people that say "I'd shoot 3 gun if you made concession X or Y for me" will never actually show. Get rid of shotguns, get rid of tough shots, get rid of long range or target scoring zones and they'll just find a new excuse not to show.

[outerlimits]

dunno about 2 gun.  here's the breakdown for superstition mountain mystery next week.  

[RJH]

21 minutes ago, outerlimits said:

dunno about 2 gun.  here's the breakdown for superstition mountain mystery next week.  

 

The more interesting thing to me is that open three gun has more than tactical. Tacops used to be by far the biggest division. I think open being bigger is directly related to more reliable box fed shotguns

[kurtm]

I tried a 1301 for a while, I helped in modifying the 1301 that became the comp version that was finally produced by Beretta, I never could warm up to it that much, but it is a good gun. I prefer the M2 by a fair margin, personal preference I guess. I do know that my original M1 has over 375,000 rounds on it and it still works. Time will tell on the 1301.

 

As for 3-gun, here is a different take. Prize tables have been dwindling. COVID stopped traveling and ammo skyrocketed. When the big money/prize structure started dropping so did interest. As for club matches, that is where folks went to practice for big matches, which has large prize tables. When all that dropped, attendance dropped locally as well. All I can say is limited is about dead, I miss it so! 

[TonytheTiger]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

I think open being bigger is directly related to the illusion of more reliable box fed shotguns

FIFY

[RJH]

16 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

FIFY

 

Fair enough

[donno]

Why not buy a box fed (dissident) and be done with it. I've seen tube fed guns have as many problems as the vepr. The KS-12 entry competition can be had for a little more than a ready to run tube.

[StealthyBlagga]

On 3/9/2023 at 9:34 AM, donno said:

Why not buy a box fed (dissident) and be done with it. I've seen tube fed guns have as many problems as the vepr. The KS-12 entry competition can be had for a little more than a ready to run tube.

I think the prevailing view amongst the younger generations is that the shotgun is obsolete as a fighting weapon. Whether you like it or not, our sport's martial roots are undeniably part of its appeal. I predict shotgun is going to continue to shrink in relevance.

[StealthyBlagga]

On 3/8/2023 at 5:24 PM, RJH said:

 

The more interesting thing to me is that open three gun has more than tactical. Tacops used to be by far the biggest division. I think open being bigger is directly related to more reliable box fed shotguns

 

While box fed shotguns have become more prevalent, I don't believe the decline in Tactical 3-Gun can be explained this way, at least not at our matches (Rio Salado, Mesa, AZ). Below is a chart of SMM3G participation since 2017. We introduced 2-Gun as an option in 2019 and the growth in its popularity seems to mirror closely the drop in Tactical 3-Gun participation. The other divisions look comparatively stable.

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by StealthyBlagga

[donno]

19 minutes ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

While box fed shotguns have become more prevalent, I don't believe the decline in Tactical 3-Gun can be explained this way, at least not at our matches (Rio Salado, Mesa, AZ). Below is a chart of SMM3G participation since 2017. We introduced 2-Gun as an option in 2019 and the growth in its popularity seem to mirror closely the drop in Tactical 3-Gun participation.

 

I think a lot of the division numbers are predicated on location and tournament itself. For 3 or 4 majors here in the Carolinas, we have almost as many open shooters, and sometime more, than we do tac ops. At 1 or 2 of the matches we will have 100+ open shooters at a major. We don't have 2 gun divisions at a 3-gun matches here for the most part.

[RJH]

7 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

While box fed shotguns have become more prevalent, I don't believe the decline in Tactical 3-Gun can be explained this way, at least not at our matches (Rio Salado, Mesa, AZ). Below is a chart of SMM3G participation since 2017. We introduced 2-Gun as an option in 2019 and the growth in its popularity seems to mirror closely the drop in Tactical 3-Gun participation. The other divisions look comparatively stable.

 

 

Interesting. It does look like a little bit of bump and open overall from then, but between open moving up a teeny bit in the big jump with two gun, the biggest thing I get is people don't like loading shotguns LOL 

 

The other thing that's interesting is just how match dependent everything is.

 

I was watching some videos from SMM3G and it didn't look like shooting tacops or modified would be any issue, because overall it seems like shotgun round count was what I would consider reasonable, of course like I said this is just from watching several videos of the match, I have not shot it.

 

Our local 3 gun match is way more reminiscent of the videos I've seen of the vortex championship where it's huge stages and a lot of natural terrain, and basically no bays. The local stages aren't as big as the ones at vortex, but they're pretty huge for a club match. They do two gun here but it doesn't have much following, open is generally the biggest division and I think that's mainly due to the shotgun and dot on pistol, and then modified. I think only one guy shot tac ops at the last monthly match. If you're going to shoot tacops here you need to be a pretty solid pistol shot to begin to have a chance at not timing out. 

 

I really wished our matches were more like smm3g, but there's only one here so you kinda take what you can get LOL

[DocMedic]

To ensure the growth and success of a sport, it is crucial to attract new participants. Unfortunately, in the case of 3gun, the majority of its enthusiasts belong to the previous generation of shooters. As someone who began participating in this sport in my late twenties, I am now 41 and still considered one of the younger members that shoot 3gun in my area. This trend does not bode well for the future of the sport.

 

When observing the younger generation of shooters, I've noticed that they tend to gravitate towards the division their friends participate in and already have the necessary equipment for. For many, this happens to be 2gun, which has a lower entry barrier and allows those to compete at a high competitive level with a basic setup consisting of an off-the-shelf  AR, pistol, and magazine pouches. In contrast, 3gun requires a specialized shotgun that often requires modification, which is not really readily available from mainstream manufacturers. In addition, unique shell holders are required, further complicating the process.

 

It's important to consider the perception of shooting in the broader community as well. Influential gun personalities like Garand Thumb and Lucas from Trex Arms have followers numbering in the millions across social media platforms, while actual pro shooters such as Daniel Horner and Max Michael have less than 40k followers. Exposure is essential, and “Gun influencers”  are not promoting the next great shotgun designed for 3gun.

Edited March 23, 2023 by DocMedic

[ColoradoNick]

23 minutes ago, DocMedic said:

 Influential gun personalities like Garand Thumb and Lucas from Trex Arms have followers numbering in the millions across social media platforms, while actual pro shooters such as Daniel Horner and Max Michael have less than 40k followers. Exposure is essential, and “Gun influencers”  are not promoting the next great shotgun designed for 3gun.

I can't find either one of the guys you mentioned on Instagram. I follow both Garand Thumb and Lucas though.

[davsco]

On 3/22/2023 at 7:59 PM, RJH said:

 

the biggest thing I get is people don't like loading shotguns LOL 

 

at least for me, the actual loading/reloading isn't an issue.  it's having all those shells on you possibly falling off if you have slung rifle, or depending on shooting positions.  then it's the whole form factor of the gun and ammo and mags vs AR and handgun.  then the ammo and choke mix.  just adds a lot of logistics, hassle and the like.

[Stefan77]

For me it is all about location.  There are no close 3-gun matches that I have available to me.  I think the closest one is about 4 hours away and it is active mil/leo only.

 

Hard part is access to matches, next hard part is equipment for both the clubs and the shooters.

 

Just my .02

[Almo]

My primary reason for stopping 3-gun was shoulder surgery, which made shooting shotgun uncomfortable.  I'll probably go back eventually.  However another issue was that the stages seemed to be set up for open shooters and I shot tactical.  An example: start with an unloaded shotgun in a stage that required more than 25 hits with the shotgun.  Open shooters could have their reloading tubes, but I was stuffing shells into my pockets.  I failed to knock down a couple far targets with one hit and ran out of ammo.  That was no fun.

[Darqusoull13]

Looking at a popular 2 gun format vs the new style of 3 gun it's clear why 2 gun is growing and 3 gun is fading. People would rather do burpees or run 5+ miles at the Tactical Games or Run and Guns than shoot 40+ round shotgun stages. When 3 Gun understands that and adapts, then 3 gun might grow again. 

The overemphasis on the platform the fewest number of gun owners have along with the relatively less reliable and massively less practical reason to own a 12+ round shotgun is why 3 gun is still fading. 

Mind you, I'm not saying ditch the shotgun. Just go back to using it in a realistic way. 

 

[Boomstick303]

3 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Mind you, I'm not saying ditch the shotgun. Just go back to using it in a realistic way. 

 

I can see this for sure.  I never understood the reason for starting with a fully loaded Shot gun as well regardless of the division.  Make some tweaks it might resurrect the sport a bit.  

[mpeltier]

23 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I can see this for sure.  I never understood the reason for starting with a fully loaded Shot gun as well regardless of the division.  Make some tweaks it might resurrect the sport a bit.  

So, you feel forcing the shooter to load an empty or down loaded shotgun will resurrect 3-gun? ( I know, "among other tweaks") This seems counter to why a lot of folks don't like the shotgun. The shotgun complaints I hear most are how the shotgun portion is just a loading/reloading race.

Edited May 6, 2023 by mpeltier

[mmc45414]

On 5/5/2023 at 10:17 AM, Darqusoull13 said:

The overemphasis on the platform the fewest number of gun owners have along with the relatively less reliable and massively less practical reason to own a 12+ round shotgun is why 3 gun is still fading. 

Mind you, I'm not saying ditch the shotgun. Just go back to using it in a realistic way. 

I agree with this.  I own a very nice shotgun (21" 1301C) that is very cool when setup for 8+1, but just goofy with the longer (+8?) tube on it.  The only reason a person would spend ~$1500 on something like that would be to shoot three gun, and fewer people seem to be willing to buy in.

 

55 minutes ago, mpeltier said:

The shotgun complaints I hear most are how the shotgun portion is just a loading/reloading race.

I recently decided to bail on a match that promised to require at least 100 rounds as an absolute minimum.  I expect four stages, so I would have been (twin) loading 50-60 rounds, not something that sounded appealing.

 

I would have done it, but after all of my squad buddies couldn't go, and the weather was (incorrectly) predicted to be cold, windy and nasty, I decided to withdraw.  I would have spent about eight hours and about $200, and just been aggravated.  Dunno why, but the turnout was pretty low.

Edited May 6, 2023 by mmc45414