Need Coated 124’s recommendation

[chenault]

8 minutes ago, Kenstone said:

Have you shot coated lead before from this gun?

What diameter bullets did you buy this time, the same as before?

Have you ever slugged the barrel?

These Brazos bullets might be too small or too soft.

Normally a coating negates the need of a harder bullet.

Have you contacted the bullet maker?

Might be a known "bad batch", you never will know unless you contact them.

I don't know of any way to change the load to lesson the leading other than increase/decrease the charge or try a different powder.

Maybe someone will come along with the right answer.

sorry I can't be of more help,

 

 

-No these were the first bullets though this gun, so I haven't used coated bullets with it, but it's a Shadow 2 and coated bullets are used regularly on them.

-The bullet diameter was .356

-Haven't slugged the barrel

-I e-mailed the maker tonight.  Curious what they have to say.  Like I said, I like these bullets. 

[andre3k]

1 hour ago, chenault said:

I've attached a couple pics below.  I took a random sampling of 10 and these in the photo all look like they didn't get lead in the groove.  Could that cause the leading issue.  Again, not trying to rip on the company, I would like to keep using their stuff, but I would also like to find a solution to this problem. 

 

 The interior of the lube bands aren't touching your bore, its unlikely that's causing the leading issue. At the end of the day, Hi-Tek isn't a cure all, you're still shooting a cast lead bullet. Have you ever slugged your bore to determine your true diameter? Ideally you want want your bullets sized .002 over your bore diameter. I'm sure Brazos will be along shortly to help out.

 

My first guess would be that it's a sizing issue rather than a coating issue.

 

However, I did a LOT of experimentation with Hi-Tek a few years ago and it can be very finicky coating to apply. I had batches of bullets that would randomly have coating failures. These were batches made using the same application methods and baking temp/ times that had previously worked for thousands of bullets. I never really figured it out. My biggest gripe with Hi-Tek is that there are no US made competitors to offer a similar product with better technical support. Ultimately, I was never able to come up with reliable answer for the coating failures, my best guess was temperature / humidity variability effected drying and baking times. I kinda gave up on figuring it out and dealt with an occasional bad batch whenever it came up.

[JohnnyD]

chenault

 

Couple of questions that might help to narrow things down.

 

1) Have you pulled a few bullets down and measured them to make sure they are still .356 in multiple spots?  Do you have a ring from the crimp that is cutting through the coating?

 

2) What powder are you using?

 

 

I tried using Titegroup and Blue Bullets several years ago in 9, couldn't get the leading down enough to be satisfied.  Moved back to plated in 9.  Currently loading Blue Bullets in 40 with TG.  I get some leading near the breach but it really thins out the farther it goes down the barrel.

 

I'm hoping to be able to get my hands on some Sport Pistol powder soon to see if that helps with the fouling.  Once I'm done with the 5k Xtremes I have I will be giving coated lead a shot again in 9mm.

[chenault]

9 hours ago, andre3k said:

 The interior of the lube bands aren't touching your bore, its unlikely that's causing the leading issue. At the end of the day, Hi-Tek isn't a cure all, you're still shooting a cast lead bullet. Have you ever slugged your bore to determine your true diameter? Ideally you want want your bullets sized .002 over your bore diameter. I'm sure Brazos will be along shortly to help out.

 

My first guess would be that it's a sizing issue rather than a coating issue.

 

However, I did a LOT of experimentation with Hi-Tek a few years ago and it can be very finicky coating to apply. I had batches of bullets that would randomly have coating failures. These were batches made using the same application methods and baking temp/ times that had previously worked for thousands of bullets. I never really figured it out. My biggest gripe with Hi-Tek is that there are no US made competitors to offer a similar product with better technical support. Ultimately, I was never able to come up with reliable answer for the coating failures, my best guess was temperature / humidity variability effected drying and baking times. I kinda gave up on figuring it out and dealt with an occasional bad batch whenever it came up.

You bring up some good points.  Guess I’ll slug the barrel

 

update:  Maker got ahold of me this morning and offered to send me larger size sample pack.  Really impressed with this company 

Edited May 6, 2019 by chenault

[Kenstone]

10 hours ago, chenault said:

You bring up some good points.  Guess I’ll slug the barrel

 

update:  Maker got ahold of me this morning and offered to send me larger size sample pack.  Really impressed with this company 

Good to hear the guy's working with you on your problem.

FYI

I buy ALL bullets at 0.358" or 0.359" dia. when I can get them.

And push them thru a Lee sizing die, a size for the gun I'm shooting them in, and have found a 0.357" diameter bullet shoot thru all 9mm barrels, except one, a Storm Lake.

More often than not, I buy bullets listed for 38/357,  then size them and use them for 9mm.

My preference is coated bullets with no lube groove, they feed best thru my Hornady bullet feeding dies.

Post back any updates,

 

 

[Lightfoot]

6 hours ago, chenault said:

You bring up some good points.  Guess I’ll slug the barrel

 

update:  Maker got ahold of me this morning and offered to send me larger size sample pack.  Really impressed with this company 

We have had a couple of folks have this issue.  The coating seems to pass inspection via smash and acetone testing.  The loading seems within the normal ranges. It may be as simple as upping the size.  In fact I believe that is the key.  I'll be watching the thread for other ideas too.  I'm an Expert Bullseye shooter.  I can reload what I need, but I'll admit that I don't have all the answers.

[Flatland Shooter]

5 hours ago, Lightfoot said:

We have had a couple of folks have this issue.  The coating seems to pass inspection via smash and acetone testing.  The loading seems within the normal ranges. It may be as simple as upping the size.  In fact I believe that is the key.  I'll be watching the thread for other ideas too.  I'm an Expert Bullseye shooter.  I can reload what I need, but I'll admit that I don't have all the answers.

 

Do you have a recommended max velocity?    I ordered 1106 of the .380/9mm 95 gr bullets last night and see they have already shipped.   Thank you.

 

I see they are sized at .356".    These will be used in a PCC.   I've run many thousands of 98 gr bullets sized at .357" at 138 PF with zero leading.  I'll let you know if the .356" causes any problems.

  

Any chance you will be making deliveries at CCC matches (Navasota)?

 

Thanks.

[Lightfoot]

12 hours ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

Do you have a recommended max velocity?    I ordered 1106 of the .380/9mm 95 gr bullets last night and see they have already shipped.   Thank you.

 

I see they are sized at .356".    These will be used in a PCC.   I've run many thousands of 98 gr bullets sized at .357" at 138 PF with zero leading.  I'll let you know if the .356" causes any problems.

  

Any chance you will be making deliveries at CCC matches (Navasota)?

 

Thanks.

As for velocities, I'd say stick with "normal" pistol velocities and everything should be fine.  I'm not that guy who wants to find the top end just for the sake of it.  I've heard of people pushing coated lead past 1400 fps without issue though.  Weekends have been pretty busy lately.  Eventually we will show up at CCC though.  What days are the matches?

[Flatland Shooter]

On 5/7/2019 at 12:26 PM, Lightfoot said:

As for velocities, I'd say stick with "normal" pistol velocities and everything should be fine.  I'm not that guy who wants to find the top end just for the sake of it.  I've heard of people pushing coated lead past 1400 fps without issue though.  Weekends have been pretty busy lately.  Eventually we will show up at CCC though.  What days are the matches?

 

My sweet spot with sub-100 grain bullets is right at 138 PF (1453 fps) so will see if I get any leading with your bullets..  The bullets were delivered today (very fast!!!) and look great.  Unlike an earlier photo, all mine have a consistent coating even in the grooves.  Checked a random dozen bullets and the weight was very consistent (95.1 grs).  Diameter was a bit smaller than expected but probably will not cause problems (with my caliper I'm getting 0.354")

 

Will load up some with 4.4 gr N-320 and once it stops raining in these parts, I will check them for accuracy and speed over the chrono.  My two most accurate barrels are a Taccom ULW (non-ramped ) barrel and a JP 14-1/2" barrel.  Will experiment with both.

 

I usually attend the Brazosland Pistoleros the third Sunday of each match at CCC.   They also host other matches (PRS, Johnny Appleseed, etc).  

[chenault]

Just to update my leading problem.  It looks like the .357 did the trick.  I shot the sample pack today and saw no more leading 

[Lightfoot]

On 5/17/2019 at 9:21 PM, chenault said:

Just to update my leading problem.  It looks like the .357 did the trick.  I shot the sample pack today and saw no more leading 

 

Good to know! Glad we could help you figure out the recipe.

 

 

[Lightfoot]

I've recently examined some bullets that were returned.  I got back some that were loaded and pulled (caused leading).  The pulled bullets measured .3555" and the un-seated (new) bullets measured .3560".  The bore measured .3555" so what is really going on is the bullet isn't oversized anymore.  (it was only a .0005" over anyway.)  It is important to know for sure what size the bullet is in a loaded round.  (It takes a micrometer to know since a caliper isn't really accurate in tenths.)  Expander plugs and crimp dies can swage down the lead and make it too small for the barrel,  I'd say it could happen regardless of the initial size of the projectile.  So get those hammers out and pull a few bullets if you are having leading issues.  

[GMP]

I agree mic is best and I plan to get one but I'm confident the bullets I pulled have not been swaged.  With the same good caliper both pre and post loaded/pulled measure the same .3565" to .3570".  Same tool measures barrel slugs at .3555".  So, while not accurate to an absolute .0001",  relatively I can see the bullet is from .0010" to .0015" larger than the bore.  If I'm correct , for a coated bullet this should be more like  .002" to 003".  For .357 size bullets I'm using an NOE .360/.355  expander insert in a Lee die.  This makes bullet insertion easy and square without any forcing or possibility of scraping,  and neck tension is adequate judging by pulling difficulty and setback tests of chambering/ejecting/measuring dummy rounds several times.   Plus,  they are very accurate from my Shadow 2 and P09.  I'm  very interested to see if the .358  size will. Reduce the leading.   You guys have been great, thanks.

[Kenstone]

20 hours ago, Lightfoot said:

 

I've recently examined some bullets that were returned.  I got back some that were loaded and pulled (caused leading).  The pulled bullets measured .3555" and the un-seated (new) bullets measured .3560".  The bore measured .3555" so what is really going on is the bullet isn't oversized anymore.  (it was only a .0005" over anyway.)  It is important to know for sure what size the bullet is in a loaded round.  (It takes a micrometer to know since a caliper isn't really accurate in tenths.)  Expander plugs and crimp dies can swage down the lead and make it too small for the barrel,  I'd say it could happen regardless of the initial size of the projectile.  So get those hammers out and pull a few bullets if you are having leading issues.  

Thanks for the update

 

I have experienced bullet swaging when using oversized bullets too, and tracked it down to the expander plug being small and the bullet being swaged down by the case when seated.

Whew, um, so I use a bigger expander 

A common fix for this is changing the 9mm expander (in a Lee die) to a PM Expander Plug for 38 S&W, a $3 fix:

https://leeprecision.com/pm-expan-plg-38-s-w.html

Others, using different dies, have found/bought aftermarket expanders plugs or complete dies.

Something I may have posted before, even in this thread.

Note: the Lee factory crimp die has also proven to swage oversize bullets smaller too.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Kenstone

[anonymouscuban]

i can look into 135 gr.   There are 135 round nose bevel base and 135 rn flat point square base.  Lube groove and no lube groove.  Y’all let me know and I’ll see if we can get the moulds ordered.  It’s nearly a $1000 investment so I’d like to get it right.  

I'm also a 135gr fan for my pistols and I prefer the RN BB with no lube groove. Your 125's run great out of my PCC!

I noticed you added 135gr RN bullet to the site. Just ordered 3800. With the memorial day discount and free shipping, that's under 5 cents per bullet. Can't beat that with a stick!!

 

Thanks for getting the 135s up so quickly.

 

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[jpm2953]

I’m going to have to try these Brazos bullets. Might put in an order for some 124’s  tomorrow. 

[anonymouscuban]

I’m going to have to try these Brazos bullets. Might put in an order for some 124’s  tomorrow. 

I got shipping notification today on my order placed over the weekend. That's quick. Basically on the next business day. Will share my results with the 135 once I receive them and load some up.

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[jpm2953]

Just ordered 3,360 of the 124’s from Brazos this afternoon. Can’t wait to try them out. 

[HesedTech]

I posted this before but here goes again:

 

sampled 124/125 RN from Brazo, SNS and ACME

 

125 Brazos, work ok, accuracy very good at 25 yards, but my Tanfoglio S2 did not like them that well. I had an occasional feed issue due to the ridge/step from the base to the nose profile.  They were easy to load and because of the smaller nose profile are capable of being loaded long. The HT coating worked fine, but they did smell a bit different than others when shot. Bullet weights were very consistent.

 

124 SNS RN were the best overall of the three. They loaded easily and relatively long, weight was consistent, and accuracy at 25 yards very good.

 

124 ACMEs loaded easily, were slightly under 124 for weight and the accuracy at 25 yards was less than the other two. 

 

So what did I choose? What I was previously using, Precision Delta 147 FMJ RN and ACME 147 FP (my son’s favorite load). 

 

But if I was choosing 124s the SNS were my favorite bullets. Ran like a top out of my Stock 2. 

 

May I state the customer service of all the bullets providers have been first class. Quick order fulfillment and shipping. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by HesedTech

[Shmella]

I can’t seem to get the Brazos Bullet’s to drop into cases from my mr Bullet feeder consistently. I had to really open up the expansion/bell to get a bullet to not topple off. I never really had this problem with acme or blues but the 124 profile of the Brazos has been a little finicky for my setup. Anyone else have this issue? I have to play with the bell to find the sweet spot. I’m thinking I might have too much at this point to try and overcome the toppling and just making it worse. 

[oteroman]

I run that bullet on an automated 1050 at 1600/hr. With preprocessed brass.
No issues. I use the powder funnel from Double Alpha. It is not just the bell. You want the first few millimeters opened up a tad so that bullet sticks.

[GMP]

Been waiting to here from Brazos on .358 size 125 RNs but nothing yet.  Maybe the mold just doesn't cast them big enough?  Just ordered a sample of .358 TCs (for 38/357) to try the dia.  Got new .357 and .358 size expanders to modify(shorten) and try as well.  Would like to solve this issue, so far coated bullets have been a PIA in my guns. 

[anonymouscuban]

Wanted to share my positive experience with Brazos Precision.

 

I placed an order for 5 x 778 count packs of their 135gr RN over the long Memorial Day weekend. Bullets shipped out on the following Wednesday. I got them on Friday via US Mail. Very pleased with their shipping.

 

Unfortunately, one of the two boxes was ripped open. The plastic bag was cut open. By weight estimate, over 500 of the projectiles were missing. Not Brazos fault. This was clearly mishandling by USPS. The boxes were packed and reinforced in the same way but only one, the smaller one was damaged. And it looks like it was done intentionally.

 

I sent an email with photos Friday evening expecting not to get a response till Monday. I got a reply from Paul at Brazos within 10 minutes of my email. He apologized and said he would send me a replacement pack immediately. I got the order confirmation with a couple of minutes, shipping confirmation on Monday and today I received my bullets.

 

A true measure of company's customer service is how they respond to when things don't go perfect. I couldn't ask for better service. Truly. You bet I will be ordering from them again.

 

I plan on loading up some test rounds in the next week. I will also share how they shoot.

 

 

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[Joedirt199]

Good on them for something that wasn't their fault. As the quality workforce gets smaller and is replaced by lazy people, I fear this will happen more often. Those heavy boxes full of bullets will get miss handled and abused as payback for making them work so hard. 

[GMP]

Paul has been a model of customer service.  Funny, as I said I just ordered some .358 truncated cone bullets to try and then just got the notice that Paul had sent me a sample pack of the .358 size 125g RNs.   Last night I shortened both NOE .357 and .358 rifle length expander plugs to work for 9mm, and brass looks and plunks good.  Looking forward to trying these.