Need Coated 124’s recommendation

[Yondering]

9 hours ago, xdf3 said:

I still can't understand how there are like 2 sides as you have explained.

 

The smaller diameters are common because the vast majority of shooters, and a lot of bullet makers apparently, just don't know any better and don't want to think about details they consider "minutiae". How we arrived at .355" and .356" cast bullets is simple: the "standard" 9mm bore size is .355", and many just assume cast bullets should be the same size as jacketed. For those who pay a little more attention, it's common knowledge that we should use at least .001" larger for cast, so we get .356".

 

What a lot of people don't understand though are the rest of the details, for example - many 9mm bores are larger than .355", .001" larger is the minimum not the optimum, and fitting the chamber throat is more important than fitting the bore. Also, cast bullets can get sized down during the loading and firing process from a number of factors, including excessive case neck tension, too much crimp, or using a Lee factory crimp die.

When you consider all of that, it should be clear why a larger bullet diameter is a good idea, but those are details that most don't know or want to think about. 

 

One of my Austrian Glock 19 barrels has a .357" bore. It shoots my own cast bullets great when properly sized, but a lot of shooters would just use .355" or .356" cast bullets in it, and consider the poor results as "proof" that Glock barrels don't shoot cast bullets well. 

[Kenstone]

42 minutes ago, Yondering said:

 

I'm curious what you mean about the hazards of casting sending you to the ER? Is there a medical condition that makes you really sensitive to lead, or are you talking about being clumsy and burning yourself? 

 

With appropriate precautions, actual lead exposure from casting (correctly*) is significantly less than from shooting lead bullets, in my experience and research. 

*the exception is if you heat the lead way too hot so that it gives off lead vapor, but that's quite a ways above normal casting temps. 

 

"or are you talking about being clumsy and burning yourself?" That...

I understand how casting is a pleasure for you, much like reloading is to me/many.

 

Casting to me equates as just an exercise in saving money with too many risks to justify, and has nothing to do with being clumsy. 

Buying and scrounging lead is another downer about casting, as well as creating a dedicated space/place to do it.

jmo,

 

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Kenstone

[chenault]

I used to cast when the environment was a little tougher then now, but coated bullets are so cheap I think if your casting it would have to be because you like doing it.  

[FALer]

I've just read this 11 page thread over two nights and am just about to make a Brazo's purchase of a couple sample packs in a couple different sizes 135 gr .357 an 135 gr .358 diameter's. My shopping cart is loaded but before I do it, I wanted to get more information on the case mouth expansion prior to seating a .358 bullet.

So. I'm working with an RCBS Rockchucker with RCBS carbide dies and have loaded approx. 500 to 600 rounds, all FMJ or cast .355 conical nose (Georgia Arms).

So I'm new.

I read somewhere about an expanding die to expand the neck from "NOE", but I also read that, that tool has to be modified to work correctly. Is that what all you folks are doing to seat these larger diam. bullets?

I haven't slugged any of my bore's and don't have a micrometer yet. I just thought I'd pick up a few different sizes and see what shoots best.

[xdf3]

@YonderingI've just ordered some .357 (500) and will try them. No issues asking them, I've been asked why but nothing more.

 

And after I talked to another manifacturer, a big discussion about larger diameters started. Since things here move pretty fast due to social media, I guess, if it does give benefit, it will become more used in few months already. 

 

BTW: I've been told again that shooting 357 with a good alloy is bad for the gun, since it will make the gun break much faster. No need to shoot 357 when the lead alloy is hard enough. I don't know how much pressure can become an issue at that point. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by xdf3

[GMP]

8 hours ago, FALer said:

I've just read this 11 page thread over two nights and am just about to make a Brazo's purchase of a couple sample packs in a couple different sizes 135 gr .357 an 135 gr .358 diameter's. My shopping cart is loaded but before I do it, I wanted to get more information on the case mouth expansion prior to seating a .358 bullet.

So. I'm working with an RCBS Rockchucker with RCBS carbide dies and have loaded approx. 500 to 600 rounds, all FMJ or cast .355 conical nose (Georgia Arms).

So I'm new.

I read somewhere about an expanding die to expand the neck from "NOE", but I also read that, that tool has to be modified to work correctly. Is that what all you folks are doing to seat these larger diam. bullets?

I haven't slugged any of my bore's and don't have a micrometer yet. I just thought I'd pick up a few different sizes and see what shoots best.

 

I'm busy tonight but I'll try and get some pics and part#s of what I'm using.  basically you need to expand for the depth your seating so you have to calc that from your OAL and bullet length.  The rifle length NOE inserts can be modified on a good bench grinder with a little skill in a few minutes and then the radius polished.  With 135s you will most certainly need to do this unless your gun plunks long.  In this case, or with shorter 115g and some 124s,  a pistol length insert will be fine as is.

[Yondering]

10 hours ago, xdf3 said:

BTW: I've been told again that shooting 357 with a good alloy is bad for the gun, since it will make the gun break much faster. No need to shoot 357 when the lead alloy is hard enough. I don't know how much pressure can become an issue at that point. 

 

To be blunt: whoever told you that is full of crap. 

[Yondering]

13 hours ago, FALer said:

I've just read this 11 page thread over two nights and am just about to make a Brazo's purchase of a couple sample packs in a couple different sizes 135 gr .357 an 135 gr .358 diameter's. My shopping cart is loaded but before I do it, I wanted to get more information on the case mouth expansion prior to seating a .358 bullet.

So. I'm working with an RCBS Rockchucker with RCBS carbide dies and have loaded approx. 500 to 600 rounds, all FMJ or cast .355 conical nose (Georgia Arms).

So I'm new.

I read somewhere about an expanding die to expand the neck from "NOE", but I also read that, that tool has to be modified to work correctly. Is that what all you folks are doing to seat these larger diam. bullets?

I haven't slugged any of my bore's and don't have a micrometer yet. I just thought I'd pick up a few different sizes and see what shoots best.

 

People have different interpretations of "need" I guess, but I hate to see a new reloader be misled. Your RCBS die set expands and flares the case neck just fine, you don't need any other die. Some people prefer to use something else, but that's preference, not need. 

You do need to flare the case mouth, and lead bullets (cast/coated, lubed, swaged, whatever) need a bit more flare than jacketed bullets. You'll do this with the second die in your RCBS set, and applying more flare is done by screwing in the stem of the die a little farther. 

 

If you prefer to use something like the NOE expander, Lyman M die, etc, you can certainly do that and might or might not find some advantages with those. However, you can load excellent quality accurate cast bullet ammo with the dies you already have. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Yondering

[looking4reloadingdeals]

Building off of what Yondering said, I have used both my lee and RCBS expander dies for use with Brazos 147gr bullets without a problem


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jcc7x7]

2 hours ago, Yondering said:

 

To be blunt: whoever told you that is full of crap. 

Concur, really full of it!

Guy must have a lot of undersized bullets to sell!

[Kenstone]

3 hours ago, looking4reloadingdeals said:

.

Building off of what Yondering said, I have used both my lee and RCBS expander dies for use with Brazos 147gr bullets without a problem


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As you mentioned the Lee expander die

I recommend using a 38 S&W expanding plug for bullets bigger than 0.355" when loading 9mm, it's what I and many others do.

The expansion diameter portion is both bigger/longer and is a drop-in for the 9mm powder thru expansion die.

It will negate case bullet swaging.

 

Available at Lee as well as any other vendor:

https://leeprecision.com/pm-expan-plg-38-s-w.html

https://www.titanreloading.com/lee-se1699-pm-exp-plug-38-sw?search=lee se1699

I have posted this before, possibly even in this thread, but believe it's relevant to this discussion.

Try it, nothing to loose,

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Kenstone

[FALer]

7 hours ago, Yondering said:

 

People have different interpretations of "need" I guess, but I hate to see a new reloader be misled. Your RCBS die set expands and flares the case neck just fine, you don't need any other die. Some people prefer to use something else, but that's preference, not need. 

You do need to flare the case mouth, and lead bullets (cast/coated, lubed, swaged, whatever) need a bit more flare than jacketed bullets. You'll do this with the second die in your RCBS set, and applying more flare is done by screwing in the stem of the die a little farther. 

 

If you prefer to use something like the NOE expander, Lyman M die, etc, you can certainly do that and might or might not find some advantages with those. However, you can load excellent quality accurate cast bullet ammo with the dies you already have. 

Is there any way to explain how much more to flare versus FMJ? or is it trial and error?

With FMJ I flare just enough so the bullet will sit on top and not fall off, I have done about 100 rnds of cast and I used the same method, didn't get any lead shaving off from the case but these were .355's.

I appreciate the responses folks.

[BJB]

34 minutes ago, FALer said:

Is there any way to explain how much more to flare versus FMJ? or is it trial and error?

With FMJ I flare just enough so the bullet will sit on top and not fall off, I have done about 100 rnds of cast and I used the same method, didn't get any lead shaving off from the case but these were .355's.

I appreciate the responses folks.

It's not a lot of flare. It's not a big deal or anything special.  You just don't want to scrape the coating during seating or over crimp it during the taper crimp.  Just load up some dummies and then pull them with your kinetic puller and inspect the coating.  Check for scraping, which would indicate you need a little more flare, and check for a ring embedded in the coating from the taper crimp.  No ring or a very slight or faint ring is OK but a very deep ring is likely too much crimp.  Adjust as need be and then pull some more to check again.  You can have your flare & taper crimp set in under 5 minutes.  (I don't change my flare when loading FMJ, just keep it the same.)

Edited September 4, 2019 by BJB

[FALer]

That makes sense, I'll load up some dummies and then pull them to check. I just ordered up 3 sampler's.

[BJB]

12 minutes ago, FALer said:

That makes sense, I'll load up some dummies and then pull them to check. I just ordered up 3 sampler's.

Another tip:

I don't change my crimp for different sized bullets.  My taper crimp is set about 0.379" to 0.3795".  That way I'm good for whatever.  A taper crimp shouldn't do anything except remove the flare.  It's not holding the bullet.  The undersized die takes care of that as far as set-back is concerned.

Edited September 4, 2019 by BJB

[xdf3]

10 hours ago, jcc7x7 said:

Concur, really full of it!

Guy must have a lot of undersized bullets to sell!

Actually the one who told me is not even selling anything, he's a mechanic and told me it's clearly obvious that pressures will be higher (as much as accuracy). My question at this point is "how much"? He of course think it's much more (maybe 20% more? I don't know)

 

My easiest way is not to tell him I'm going to try 500 .357. He told me I shouldn't even use 100.

[xdf3]

13 hours ago, Yondering said:

 

People have different interpretations of "need" I guess, but I hate to see a new reloader be misled. Your RCBS die set expands and flares the case neck just fine, you don't need any other die. Some people prefer to use something else, but that's preference, not need. 

You do need to flare the case mouth, and lead bullets (cast/coated, lubed, swaged, whatever) need a bit more flare than jacketed bullets. You'll do this with the second die in your RCBS set, and applying more flare is done by screwing in the stem of the die a little farther. 

 

If you prefer to use something like the NOE expander, Lyman M die, etc, you can certainly do that and might or might not find some advantages with those. However, you can load excellent quality accurate cast bullet ammo with the dies you already have. 

Too much flare leading to swaging the bullet is caused by using the Lee Roll crimp die (seater + crimp in 1 stage), right? 

To avoid that at the moment, I must set up the the die so there's less flare. I am considering a new press so I can use Seater + Taper in different stages. Would the Lee expander die be good enough? I got a Lyman expander (not the M die I guess, I didn't buy it, I got it from spare parts) but it doesn't seem to push farther

[GMP]

At the end of the day pulling and inspection will tell you if your process is good enough for what your loading.  I have found basic flaring not to be good enough when seating .358" coated cast deeper.  The case is tapered and mixed brass varies a lot.   Shorter 115s, .356s,  and/or longer OALs not a big deal.  Also likely depends on hardness, working with a lot of Brazos which seem softer.   Since I was chasing leading problems I wanted to eliminate as many variables as possible. 

[Yondering]

18 hours ago, FALer said:

Is there any way to explain how much more to flare versus FMJ? or is it trial and error?

With FMJ I flare just enough so the bullet will sit on top and not fall off, I have done about 100 rnds of cast and I used the same method, didn't get any lead shaving off from the case but these were .355's.

I appreciate the responses folks.

 

I like to flare 9mm or other 35 cal stuff to .385"-.390", .385" being the minimum. That amount will vary based on case length, so I make sure the shortest cases are at about .385". Like BJB said, I use the same flare for everything; you can get away with less for jacketed bullets but there's not much advantage in re-adjusting if you're already set for cast/coated. As long as you're not shaving lead though, that's the main thing.

 

The downside to flaring too much is that you work the brass more and eventually will crack the case mouth if you reuse the brass a lot. 

 

BJB's comments about crimp are right on target as well.

[Yondering]

11 hours ago, xdf3 said:

Too much flare leading to swaging the bullet is caused by using the Lee Roll crimp die (seater + crimp in 1 stage), right? 

To avoid that at the moment, I must set up the the die so there's less flare. I am considering a new press so I can use Seater + Taper in different stages. Would the Lee expander die be good enough? I got a Lyman expander (not the M die I guess, I didn't buy it, I got it from spare parts) but it doesn't seem to push farther

 

No, I think you're confusing two different problems.

 

Flaring the case mouth is to prevent scraping lead or coating from lead bullets. Too much flare doesn't harm the bullet in any way, but is bad for the brass, and when taken to extremes it can cause interference with the seating die. 

 

Seating and crimping in the same step is bad with lead bullets because it shaves lead and coating; the bullet is still moving into the case while the case mouth is crimped into the bullet, causing it to scrape lead. That debris scraped off can cause all sorts of issues, including chamber fit (failing the plunk test).

 

Swaging down the bullet is a different thing entirely; that's caused by either too much case neck tension for the hardness of the bullet (not enough neck expansion and soft alloy), or seating a long bullet down into the internal taper of the case. Both should be avoided. For what we're doing with 9mm loads, you should be using bullets hard enough to not be swaged down by normal brass and sizing processes; about 12 BHN is hard enough for this. If you're seating into the case taper with a long bullet, you'll need to either hand sort your brass (use FC headstamp for example, with less taper), choose a shorter bullet, or seat to a longer OAL to avoid the taper. 

 

On the comments about larger .357"-.358" bullets causing more pressure - if we were talking about jacketed bullets which are much harder, then pressure can increase a noticeable amount, but is not necessarily dangerous. Cast lead bullets though are considerably softer and are easily sized down by the chamber throat; while there is a theoretical increase in pressure, in reality it's not significant and mostly just translates to more consistent ignition and velocity.

Even if pressure did increase by the 20% you mention (it doesn't really), unless you're already using +P or Major loads, why would it matter? Any time you're working with hot loads you should work up again when you change components, and if you're talking about Minor loads in any modern pistol then pressures are so low anyway that a small increase makes very little difference.

 

If you want to test this for yourself, measure velocity of identical loads with .356" and .358" bullets. Pressure correlates well to velocity, so if the loads are otherwise identical and pressure is higher with the .358", it'll have higher velocity. What you'll find in most cases is any difference is so small as to be insignificant. 

[Yondering]

7 hours ago, GMP said:

At the end of the day pulling and inspection will tell you if your process is good enough for what your loading.  I have found basic flaring not to be good enough when seating .358" coated cast deeper.  The case is tapered and mixed brass varies a lot.   Shorter 115s, .356s,  and/or longer OALs not a big deal.  Also likely depends on hardness, working with a lot of Brazos which seem softer.   Since I was chasing leading problems I wanted to eliminate as many variables as possible. 

 

If you're seating down into the case taper with mixed brass, the correct answer is to sort out the brass to avoid seating into the taper, or change bullet length or OAL. I don't like trying to push an expander down into the internal taper. 

 

If you rely on an expander to straighten out internal case taper, you're pushing that taper to the outside. We can get away with that with more generous chambers like OEM Glock barrels for example, but it's a problem in tight chambers. 

 

When using an appropriately hard bullet (I mentioned 12 BHN above which is about ideal for 9mm minor loads in my experience), normal case sizing should not require a special expander to avoid swaging the bullet base significantly, as long as you stay out of the internal taper of the case. If you're using an undersized sizing die that may change since neck tension is increased, but I have not found any need to use those either. When using mixed brass and medium/soft bullets, I do expect some rounds to squeeze the bullet down about .001"; this is part of the reason for using bullets more than .001" over bore size, and why .358" is a good idea in general unless the chamber is too tight. 

 

I've only been casting bullets for about 20 years, but I experiment with them a lot and this is some of what I've learned over the years.  You are spot on with the comment that pulling and inspecting bullets tells you what's really going on; this is pretty important when shooting lead IMO. 

[GMP]

5 hours ago, Yondering said:

 

If you're seating down into the case taper with mixed brass, the correct answer is to sort out the brass to avoid seating into the taper, or change bullet length or OAL. I don't like trying to push an expander down into the internal taper. 

 

If you rely on an expander to straighten out internal case taper, you're pushing that taper to the outside. We can get away with that with more generous chambers like OEM Glock barrels for example, but it's a problem in tight chambers. 

 

When using an appropriately hard bullet (I mentioned 12 BHN above which is about ideal for 9mm minor loads in my experience), normal case sizing should not require a special expander to avoid swaging the bullet base significantly, as long as you stay out of the internal taper of the case. If you're using an undersized sizing die that may change since neck tension is increased, but I have not found any need to use those either. When using mixed brass and medium/soft bullets, I do expect some rounds to squeeze the bullet down about .001"; this is part of the reason for using bullets more than .001" over bore size, and why .358" is a good idea in general unless the chamber is too tight. 

 

I've only been casting bullets for about 20 years, but I experiment with them a lot and this is some of what I've learned over the years.  You are spot on with the comment that pulling and inspecting bullets tells you what's really going on; this is pretty important when shooting lead IMO. 

The longest plug/deepest expansion / seating I'm working with is .270".  I don't have a std. case drawing handy to see if this is into the taper,  but has produced about 20 rejects out of 500 rounds,. Using a CZ barrel as a gauge.  All of these were off brand headstamps. The remainder in quality mixed brass loaded, looked, and shot fine.  The other thing I like about the NOE plugs is the flare is not a bell but a straight section like the M die.  The bullets start perfectly straight.  As I mentioned I was chasing a leading problem and eliminating variables.  .357 " bullets that still measured .357 " when pulled leaded my barrels. So I wanted .358" to stay .358".  This worked, and  in the case of the Precision bullets completely eliminated the problem.  I suspect the coating has something to do with that as well as it contains a dry lubricant, possibly moly disulphide based on the residue.  

[FALer]

On ‎9‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 6:28 AM, GMP said:

 

I'm busy tonight but I'll try and get some pics and part#s of what I'm using.  basically you need to expand for the depth your seating so you have to calc that from your OAL and bullet length.  The rifle length NOE inserts can be modified on a good bench grinder with a little skill in a few minutes and then the radius polished.  With 135s you will most certainly need to do this unless your gun plunks long.  In this case, or with shorter 115g and some 124s,  a pistol length insert will be fine as is.

Love to see some images of what you have going on, part #'s too. When time permits.

Nate

[teros135]

20 hours ago, 124gr9mm said:

 

Wouldn't it be more appropriate for you to pay to become a sponsor/vendor as opposed to copy/pasting your sales info as a "reply" to a bunch of threads?

 

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by teros135

[Mcfoto]

7 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

I doubt she's that ethical.  Just an industry shill. 

 

Read the forum rules, "Elizabeth", and please go away.

 

I personally would give her a mulligan. Lots of small businesses trying to figure out the whole "online marketing" thing and its sometimes sticky. To get customers you need to engage but if you get too "salesly," well...

 

@Elizabeth22r, this is a peer to peer forum not a "blog." You might contact the administrators on how to best interact here. I know there are several small business owners on here who do a good job of being able to offer solutions without putting anyone off. Mostly they interact as shooters first and contribute that way before offering their wares.