Need Coated 124’s recommendation

[obsessiveshooter]

I bought a huge (for me) batch of 9mm 125gr bullets from Brazos, and since I don't normally shoot 9 mm I didn't really pay attention to the diameter. They were .356 and they're definitely leading my barrels. It's a PITA to clean, but I have 2k left. I have 2 questions: (1) any reason I shouldn't shoot them? And (2) on my next order should I get the .357 bullets next or just go straight to the .358s?

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[looking4reloadingdeals]

I bought a huge (for me) batch of 9mm 125gr bullets from Brazos, and since I don't normally shoot 9 mm I didn't really pay attention to the diameter. They were .356 and they're definitely leading my barrels. It's a PITA to clean, but I have 2k left. I have 2 questions: (1) any reason I shouldn't shoot them? And (2) on my next order should I get the .357 bullets next or just go straight to the .358s?

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Iv been using those same bullets (assuming they’re the lube groove bullets). I shot one sample pack of .357 and through the whole thing I didn’t get any any leading and didn’t clean in between. I had a couple fast strong mixed in where the gun heated up top. I would suggest getting .357 next, and if you’re concerned just buy a sample/$42 pack and try them out. Iv also been using .357 147gr with no leading so far and about 1200 through my various glocks. Hope that helps.


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[jpm2953]

26 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

I bought a huge (for me) batch of 9mm 125gr bullets from Brazos, and since I don't normally shoot 9 mm I didn't really pay attention to the diameter. They were .356 and they're definitely leading my barrels. It's a PITA to clean, but I have 2k left. I have 2 questions: (1) any reason I shouldn't shoot them? And (2) on my next order should I get the .357 bullets next or just go straight to the .358s?

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I did the same thing with the Brazos. Leaded really bad in every 9mm I own. 

I switched to a .357 BBI and all my problems went away. 

[jcc7x7]

.357 Brazos 124 RN seem to run Ok in the x-5 (non Legion)

.358 feed, load etc fine and are a little more accurate.

 

I've got about 5% tumbling out of the 357's 

zero tumbling on the 358's BUT I also backed off my crimp die at the same time!!! 

SO I may have had a slight over crimp with the thicker walled brass (I use mixed range brass) with the .357's

 

Just ordered 4 bags from Brazos and went .358 cause it's just easier than wondering about what caused the tumbling!

[xdf3]

7 hours ago, Kenstone said:

I didn't post about those bullets for you to consider BUYING them, just to show they are readily available here in the US.

I'm not familiar with bullet sellers in Italy but I have to believe 125gr 38 bullets .357"/.358" are available where you live.

Just not sold as 9mm bullets...

 

I didn't get it 'cause I already took as granted that you have much more choice

 

Yes but as explained before, they cost much more and they're not sold as lead/color coated, most of them are plated, expensive, and/or hard to find. Like twice the price, and since plated is worse than the rest I wouldn't even spend time trying.

 

Most of .357" / 358" I find are for those calibers and they're in that 145-160 range tipically. 

 

So I have to ask to manifacturers which are not too big to go for the most requested diameters only

[GMP]

5 hours ago, xdf3 said:

I didn't get it 'cause I already took as granted that you have much more choice

 

Yes but as explained before, they cost much more and they're not sold as lead/color coated, most of them are plated, expensive, and/or hard to find. Like twice the price, and since plated is worse than the rest I wouldn't even spend time trying.

 

Most of .357" / 358" I find are for those calibers and they're in that 145-160 range tipically. 

 

So I have to ask to manifacturers which are not too big to go for the most requested diameters only

Ask your local suppliers what dia their 124/125 g mold throws, and if possible could they do a run for you at .358.   If the as cast dia is large enough (> .358), and  they have a .358 die for other bullets there is no reason they cannot do it, but you will likely have to buy a fairly high quantity.

[xdf3]

5 minutes ago, GMP said:

Ask your local suppliers what dia their 124/125 g mold throws, and if possible could they do a run for you at .358.   If the as cast dia is large enough (> .358), and  they have a .358 die for other bullets there is no reason they cannot do it, but you will likely have to buy a fairly high quantity.

I'll try this way and see if there's a chance. I'm really curious about the accuracy difference. Same for recoil, if there's any real difference

[GMP]

11 hours ago, jcc7x7 said:

.357 Brazos 124 RN seem to run Ok in the x-5 (non Legion)

.358 feed, load etc fine and are a little more accurate.

 

I've got about 5% tumbling out of the 357's 

zero tumbling on the 358's BUT I also backed off my crimp die at the same time!!! 

SO I may have had a slight over crimp with the thicker walled brass (I use mixed range brass) with the .357's

 

Just ordered 4 bags from Brazos and went .358 cause it's just easier than wondering about what caused the tumbling!

 

Its really hard to beat the price!  .358 cured almost all the leading issues.  Whats left can be brushed out with chorboy in a few min.  They remain very accurate.  The bevel base makes them fast and easy to load too.   I think if they modded the mold to eliminate the lube groove and increase the drive/contact area it may be even better.  The profile just seems to work very well in my guns and with CZs in particular is easy to load without going so short.

 

I've been shooting some Precision bullets that are swagged with a slight concave base and not cast, with a coating that seems to contain some moly.  I buy these as .358 as well.  Super clean barrel, I mean nothing,  cleaner than open base FMJ.  I tend to think the coating helps.  They are a TC profile and need to be loaded a bit shorter so I use an expander cut a little longer for the seating depth.  Price is no where near as good as Brazos though.   Accuracy seems to be the same in my guns at least at game distances. 

[GMP]

10 minutes ago, xdf3 said:

I'll try this way and see if there's a chance. I'm really curious about the accuracy difference. Same for recoil, if there's any real difference

 

I don't see how there can be a recoil difference all other things being equal.  Only accuracy and lead fouling.  

[Yondering]

5 hours ago, GMP said:

 

I don't see how there can be a recoil difference all other things being equal.  Only accuracy and lead fouling.  

 

The only way a smaller bullet diameter produces less recoil is if it's not sealing the bore to build up pressure. Leaking gas past the bullet = gas cutting = leading & poor accuracy. None of that is an advantage in any way. 

[Yondering]

17 hours ago, obsessiveshooter said:

I bought a huge (for me) batch of 9mm 125gr bullets from Brazos, and since I don't normally shoot 9 mm I didn't really pay attention to the diameter. They were .356 and they're definitely leading my barrels. It's a PITA to clean, but I have 2k left. I have 2 questions: (1) any reason I shouldn't shoot them? And (2) on my next order should I get the .357 bullets next or just go straight to the .358s?

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Just go straight for the .358". The only downside of the larger bullets is if your barrel has a very tight chamber and won't chamber fat bullets with some brands of brass. You'll have to find the answer to that through trial and error. 

[Kenstone]

12 hours ago, xdf3 said:

I didn't get it 'cause I already took as granted that you have much more choice

 

Yes but as explained before, they cost much more and they're not sold as lead/color coated, most of them are plated, expensive, and/or hard to find. Like twice the price, and since plated is worse than the rest I wouldn't even spend time trying.

 

Most of .357" / 358" I find are for those calibers and they're in that 145-160 range tipically. 

 

So I have to ask to manifacturers which are not too big to go for the most requested diameters only

OK then

Have you considered casting/coating/sizing your own?

What quantities are you talking about here.

I'm not understanding the 2x cost difference between coated and plated(not that way in the US), so why not just buy cheaper traditionally wax lubed bullets and deal with the smoke/smooge/dirty gun/etc.

… Or just go with what's available even though they are heavier, 145gr.

 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Kenstone

[GMP]

I reload with range and match pick up brass.    Only issues I've had with .358 size were with the CBC, Maxtech, XTreme, Aquilla, of course FM, some Mil brass(hard) and a couple other off brand junk cases.  CBC being by far the worst.  I cull these out during decap.  Everything else from the major mfgs. loads, chambers, and shoots  fine.  Some cases you notice a bit more bulge than others but they all work, zero failures .  I have never loaded .358 size 147s (long) so guessing that may introduce more problems.   I use a dedicated expander stage so I can see the case as it comes down from the die, if it looks funny I stop the show and pull it from the shell plate.  I pull the barrel from a CZ as a gauge for final QC.  Yeah I know same headstamp is best but if its reliable and chews a 11/2" hole offhand @ 15 yards its good for games.

[Yondering]

49 minutes ago, Kenstone said:

OK then

Have you considered casting/coating/sizing your own?

 

That would be my suggestion too, but it depends on the person. Personally I enjoy casting my own, and the ability to change bullet characteristics to match the gun and load, and that is the same type of advantage that reloading is compared to buying factory ammo. Being able to do it a lot cheaper than buying bullets is just a secondary benefit. However, casting is not for everyone; it's a whole separate hobby from reloading, and there are some significant safety issues to address. 

 

If you're interested though xdf3, I can give you some input on casting your own and how to do it efficiently to make a lot of bullets in a short amount of time. I'm the guy who figured out the "shake and bake" powder coating that a lot of bullet casters in the US use now, and can point you in the right direction on that. The equipment to cast and coat your own will cost ~$150-$250 (in the US) not counting lead, and you can expect to produce around 200-300 bullets per hour once you get the hang of it. Like I said though, it is another hobby and there's a lot to learn. 

 

 

GMP - good post!

[xdf3]

2 hours ago, Kenstone said:

OK then

Have you considered casting/coating/sizing your own?

What quantities are you talking about here.

I'm not understanding the 2x cost difference between coated and plated(not that way in the US), so why not just buy cheaper traditionally wax lubed bullets and deal with the smoke/smooge/dirty gun/etc.

… Or just go with what's available even though they are heavier, 145gr.

 

Yes I have, I think I wouldn't do it. I'm having enough troubles reloading since my arms/wrists are starting to hurt (I think it's caused by using the computer for my main job + reloading + shooting, not one in particular but all of 3 together). That would add some extra time / pressure too. I considered the gains in terms of money and it wouldn't be so big to consider it, since it's hard to find lead (for free) or at least it's not as easy as many years ago.
If I had to pick one, I would consider coating and sizing if needed but at the moment there wouldn't be a huge gain. The least I could find for hard cast bullets is 30€/1000, about 50-55 for good coated bullets (the ones I'm using in competitions), and just to make a comparison : 65-90 for the common FMJ bullets and 150 for HAP (Hornady) bullets. 

However if I had to coat, maybe I would do it for most of the bullets I shoot to gain a real advantage in terms of health (no smoke, not touching lead, etc...) but I'm not sure at the moment.

 

The typical price between coated and plated is just 20-30%. Low quality plated cost about 60-65€ / 1000, higher quality about 75€, and some of even better quality cost as FMJ bullets.

 

The fact is, most of these 124 grains plated bullets are either .355 or .356

If I want .357/358 that's tipically for that caliber (and sold by other manifacturers) so they cost much more. The average/good quality plated bullets sold here are Frontier but they are either .355 or 356.

Anyway, I wouldn't use plated bullets so that's not even an issue.

I could ask for .357 158 grains I guess but that's not what I usually shoot and I'm not sure that would fit my style, so I better ask for 124 grains for now 

[wtturn]

IMO few people should have to go to .357 or .358 diameter bullets to eliminate leading and find acceptable accuracy with a mainstream gun manufacturer's 9mm barrel.

The vast majority of guys loading 9mm for practical shooting with coated bullets are doing so with .355 or .356 diameter from the well known manufacturers with none of these issues.

I am just very skeptical that increasing diameter over standard specs is treating the root cause instead of the symptoms.

I find it far more likely that the problem lies with the bullet alloy/hardness/coating application/etc. for those instances where you guys are encountering these problems.

YMMV



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[Joedirt199]

My thoughts as well since people are using .356 from other manufactures with cleaner results.

[andre3k]

The only way to tell is to slug your barrel, mic the sample and know the true diameter of your barrel. The bullet needs to seal the bore. Basic stuff for running lead bullets. The problem is when you try to skip steps and treat loading cast lead like you're running an FMJ. Coatings aren't magic, you're still loading a cast lead bullet. Ones reloading practices should reflect this. You can have a perfect application of Hi-Tek and the coating will fail with an improperly sized bullet. It happens with every manufacturer.

 

Most commercial bullets manufacturers are hopefully using certified foundry alloys and that will eliminate questions about hardness issues. 

 

 

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[Kenstone]

6 hours ago, Yondering said:

 

That would be my suggestion too, but it depends on the person. Personally I enjoy casting my own, and the ability to change bullet characteristics to match the gun and load, and that is the same type of advantage that reloading is compared to buying factory ammo. Being able to do it a lot cheaper than buying bullets is just a secondary benefit. However, casting is not for everyone; it's a whole separate hobby from reloading, and there are some significant safety issues to address. 

 

If you're interested though xdf3, I can give you some input on casting your own and how to do it efficiently to make a lot of bullets in a short amount of time. I'm the guy who figured out the "shake and bake" powder coating that a lot of bullet casters in the US use now, and can point you in the right direction on that. The equipment to cast and coat your own will cost ~$150-$250 (in the US) not counting lead, and you can expect to produce around 200-300 bullets per hour once you get the hang of it. Like I said though, it is another hobby and there's a lot to learn. 

 

 

GMP - good post!

 

Yep, "but it depends on the person" , that would be me as exposure to the hazards of casting would lead to a trip to the ER.

A man's gotta know his limitations and I'm happy to pay up for the Hi-Tek bullets I need, with a life time extra cost being less than one trip to the ER or an annual blood test for lead.

I've never had any leading problems to date but have seen accuracy improvements with larger diameter bullets, so I use them.

Even if Hi-Tek bullets were not available I don't think I'd cast/coat/size my own, and would probably try plated or jacketed.

I have even used swaged 6/2 alloy/coated and had no leading but I do know I'm done with cast/wax lubed bullets.

These:  https://precisionbullets.com/product/38-125-fp/

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Kenstone

[GMP]

Those .358 Precisions are excellent.  

 

Its been said for a long time cast/coated should be at least .002" over bore groove  dia.  Since my guns all slug .3556,  and leading all but stops at .358",. I'd say that's a good general rule.  

[xdf3]

7 hours ago, wtturn said:

IMO few people should have to go to .357 or .358 diameter bullets to eliminate leading and find acceptable accuracy with a mainstream gun manufacturer's 9mm barrel.

The vast majority of guys loading 9mm for practical shooting with coated bullets are doing so with .355 or .356 diameter from the well known manufacturers with none of these issues.

I am just very skeptical that increasing diameter over standard specs is treating the root cause instead of the symptoms.

I find it far more likely that the problem lies with the bullet alloy/hardness/coating application/etc. for those instances where you guys are encountering these problems.

YMMV



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I still can't understand how there are like 2 sides as you have explained.

 

Here in Italy manifacturers say .355 or .356 coated are fine. Some even say .355 will still have accuracy. 

 

Let's say the alloy is good enough, hardness is over 20HB and coating won't be removed by touching it or in the barrel. Would you pick a .355 in that case? 

 

I saw .357/358 is the most preferred for accuracy + no leading and I see the other side especially in IPSC. Hard to find real reasons but I've even heard more than once "when I used 357 the group tightened"

[GMP]

6 hours ago, xdf3 said:

I still can't understand how there are like 2 sides as you have explained.

 

Here in Italy manifacturers say .355 or .356 coated are fine. Some even say .355 will still have accuracy. 

 

Let's say the alloy is good enough, hardness is over 20HB and coating won't be removed by touching it or in the barrel. Would you pick a .355 in that case? 

 

I saw .357/358 is the most preferred for accuracy + no leading and I see the other side especially in IPSC. Hard to find real reasons but I've even heard more than once "when I used 357 the group tightened"

 

.355 is for jacketed.  Even the excellent RMR 124g FMJ I have been using mics out to .3555 - .356.  What I've experienced is leading and questionable accuracy with .356 coated of several brands, not just one, in four guns(two CZs, an Italian Beretta APX and an FN509).  Ibejheads, SNS, DG, Badman,  Red River, Brazos bullets in .356 ALL leaded my guns BAD.  All of these bullets have coating that will not separate when smashed with a hammer(however ANY coating can be scraped off by a sharp edge/inadequate flare/expansion).  I consider my process well developed and bullets were verified not damaged in any way.  So, I can't argue with success of my solution.  Note that even with some leading accuracy was still adequate for local USPSA(our IPSC) stuff, so some guys there possibly may not even realize it.  The guys at Brazos totally agree and you will now find .358 as a standard size option for the 125g 9mm RN.  Just try for yourself and see, but slug your barrel so you know what your working with. 

[xdf3]

3 minutes ago, GMP said:

 

.355 is for jacketed.  Even the excellent RMR 124g FMJ I have been using mics out to .3555 - .356.  What I've experienced is leading and questionable accuracy with .356 coated of several brands, not just one, in four guns(two CZs, an Italian Beretta APX and an FN509).  Ibejheads, SNS, DG, Badman,  Red River, Brazos bullets in .356 ALL leaded my guns BAD.  All of these bullets have coating that will not separate when smashed with a hammer(however ANY coating can be scraped off by a sharp edge/inadequate flare/expansion).  I consider my process well developed and bullets were verified not damaged in any way.  So, I can't argue with success of my solution.  Note that even with some leading accuracy was still adequate for local USPSA(our IPSC) stuff, so some guys there possibly may not even realize it.  The guys at Brazos totally agree and you will now find .358 as a standard size option for the 125g 9mm RN.  Just try for yourself and see, but slug your barrel so you know what your working with. 

 

Do you shoot both USPSA and IPSC or is USPSA so common that IPSC is like a side sport? 

 

Well, the coated bullets I shoot and most shooters shoot here (not the one sold by companies, but by few manifacturers -- they have a name but it's usually 1 or 2 people producing/sellling them) don't lead the barrel, but I'm not that sure about accuracy. I mean, they're accurate  "enough" for most distances, even 40 yards but I don't know what the tightest group can be.

 

The hard cast bullets I use (356) lead A LOT.

 

Can a mark in the coating be enough to destroy it when the powder explodes? 

[Yondering]

14 hours ago, Kenstone said:

 

Yep, "but it depends on the person" , that would be me as exposure to the hazards of casting would lead to a trip to the ER.

 

I'm curious what you mean about the hazards of casting sending you to the ER? Is there a medical condition that makes you really sensitive to lead, or are you talking about being clumsy and burning yourself? 

 

With appropriate precautions, actual lead exposure from casting (correctly*) is significantly less than from shooting lead bullets, in my experience and research. 

*the exception is if you heat the lead way too hot so that it gives off lead vapor, but that's quite a ways above normal casting temps. 

[GMP]

1 hour ago, xdf3 said:

 

Do you shoot both USPSA and IPSC or is USPSA so common that IPSC is like a side sport? 

 

Well, the coated bullets I shoot and most shooters shoot here (not the one sold by companies, but by few manifacturers -- they have a name but it's usually 1 or 2 people producing/sellling them) don't lead the barrel, but I'm not that sure about accuracy. I mean, they're accurate  "enough" for most distances, even 40 yards but I don't know what the tightest group can be.

 

The hard cast bullets I use (356) lead A LOT.

 

Can a mark in the coating be enough to destroy it when the powder explodes? 

 

I'm a first year USPSA shooter, only a few matches so far.  I've shot steel for a few years and a lot this year, and general range shooting / bullseye for a long time.  Been reloading for a very long time too. As far as I know USPSA is the American arm of IPSC.  

 

Not sure of your reloading experience, but with coated you can scrape the coating off during seating and not even know it.  Proper expansion is important to eliminate this as well as eliminate swagging the bullet smaller.  You process dummy rounds and pull, measure the bullets to verify this.  If you treat a coated bullet like jacketed your doomed.  i wouldn't even consider .356 lubed lead.