Pros/Cons Limited Minor

[RJH]

1 hour ago, RangerTrace said:

Without question there are plenty of folks who can spit out super fast split times with 40 major.  Give that same person the same platform with 9 minor and they will be faster.  Period.

 

I have gotten different results when I tested this, we are just going to have to agree to disagree

Edited April 29, 2018 by RJH

[Foxtrotx1]

I have to wonder if the decline in popularity of .40 in the general public/LEOs will slowly, eventually show it's head in USPSA. Brass may become more expensive, projectiles as sales volume goes down. I already reload 9 and .45, no way I want to stock a 3rd pistol caliber. 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Foxtrotx1

[StuckinMS]

6 hours ago, Foxtrotx1 said:

I have to wonder if the decline in popularity of .40 in the general public/LEOs will slowly, eventually show it's head in USPSA. Brass may become more expensive, projectiles as sales volume goes down. I already reload 9 and .45, no way I want to stock a 3rd pistol caliber. 

Good question, but I doubt it.  LEO'S changed over mostly due to the fact most police departments couldn't afford enough ammunition for their employees to shoot often enough to learn how to properly control recoil.  They masked that with saying it was because of the vast performance enhancements of the newer defensive ammunition available in 9mm i.e. Hornady's critical duty for one example.   In the reloading world bullets are sold by weight not caliber and therefore pricing is not as related to popularity.   For instance, until 9mm major in open came along participation had been on the decline in production division and thus affected the sales volume of 9mm bullets.  That however did not affect the actual cost at manufacturing nor retailing the 9mm bullet though.  I have even seen a few LEO departments switch back to .40 for the lack of knock down power lately.  New brass is as high for .40 as is .38 super, but with the life cycle of brass there will continue to be a vast availability of used .40 brass for a very long time to come.  As far as loading a 3rd caliber that's just personal preference,  I myself do it, but only because I carry .45acp and want to shoot mine often just to stay familiar with it. We shoot 9mm in production and .40 in single stack, limited, and limited 10.  

[RangerTrace]

Well, actually, the FBI is a great salesman for guns and bullets.  They did a ton of testing and determined that bullet performance in modern 9mm ammunition if far better than it had been in the past.  So lots of city and state agencies follow their lead.

[Supermoto]

Its not like 40 bullet technology didn't progress too.  The FBI went with 9mm because they thought it would be easier for agents to pass the quals 

[RangerTrace]

1 hour ago, Supermoto said:

Its not like 40 bullet technology didn't progress too.  The FBI went with 9mm because they thought it would be easier for agents to pass the quals 

Because it is.  We had a lot of recruits that had problems qualifying with the Sig DAK in .357 Sig.  Score have greatly improved with the P320 and 9mm. 

[Supermoto]

Yep, but its not like they spend a lot of time training or practicing.  The quals are basic shooting and most just learn enough to pass. 

 

[StuckinMS]

There is no amount of trading calibers that will make those officers better shooters.  The skill and proper training cannot be faked in that manner.  .40 cal ammo is available at those same progressions in performance.   

2 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

Because it is.  We had a lot of recruits that had problems qualifying with the Sig DAK in .357 Sig.  Score have greatly improved with the P320 and 9mm. 

Scores will improve greatly with enough proper training and time spent at the range regardless of ammo improvement or caliber. Heck, I used to shoot a Springfield Armory XD tactical in .45 acp and win with it in limited class.  

[pjb45]

I spent some time shooting 9mm in Limited as opposed to 40 major.

My classifier scores were about the same.  My match placement improved a tad bit.

The reduced recoil and muzzle flip was actually a boon to improving my overall match performance.

 

Advice is nice but nothing beats actually committing to minor for a while.

 

Also, I generally shoot SS minor in regular matches.  Two extra rounds are a big deal.

 

[motosapiens]

9 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

Because it is.  We had a lot of recruits that had problems qualifying with the Sig DAK in .357 Sig.  Score have greatly improved with the P320 and 9mm. 

 

just imagine if you let them qualify with pcc's? they wouldn't even have to practice....

[RangerTrace]

30 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

just imagine if you let them qualify with pcc's? they wouldn't even have to practice....

True.  But they have to qualify with patrol rifles, so close enough.  

[sixsixnine]

7 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

Because it is.  We had a lot of recruits that had problems qualifying with the Sig DAK in .357 Sig.  Score have greatly improved with the P320 and 9mm. 

 

I'd be willing to bet that the ammo wasn't 100% to blame for that.

 

P320's trigger is much easier to shoot than DAK.

[Hammer002]

Wow, this thread takes first prize for absolute nonsense.  Started out ok, then, wow, just wow.  No one can change the minds of people like these, but for others reading, know that most in the latter part of this thread is complete malarkey.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Hammer002

[RangerTrace]

32 minutes ago, sixsixnine said:

 

I'd be willing to bet that the ammo wasn't 100% to blame for that.

 

P320's trigger is much easier to shoot than DAK.

No question about it.  The trigger sucked so bad, they don't even make it any more.

[RangerTrace]

31 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

Wow, this thread takes first prize for absolute nonsense.  Started out ok, then, wow, just wow.  No one can change the minds of people like these, but for others reading, know that most in the latter part of this thread is complete malarkey.

My part??

[waktasz]

Physically, you can shoot a minor round a little better, but in practice, you can shoot major faster because you don't have to aim  

[Hammer002]

3 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

My part??

 

 

lol.  No.  Of course not.  But the conversations from others you are choosing to engage in regarding their law enforcement "beliefs," aka "assumptions." are laughable at best.  Keep fighting the good fight, I guess.  I tripped and fell into this thread, dont mind me if I just stand up, roll my eyes, and carry on.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Hammer002

[Supermoto]

6 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

 

lol.  No.  Of course not.  But the conversations from others you are choosing to engage in regarding their law enforcement "beliefs," aka "assumptions." are laughable at best.  Keep fighting the good fight, I guess.  I tripped and fell into this thread, dont mind me if I just stand up, roll my eyes, and carry on.

 

You should enlighten us with your expertise in the matter

[zzt]

I just looked back at the scores from a club I love to shoot at.  Max number of shooters is 80.  Limited shooters number around 20 per shoot, +/-3, with equal number of Major and Minor shooters.  Interestingly, in warm weather months, the top half of the finishers are those shooting Major, with one or two Minor shooters.  When the weather turns cold, there are many more Minor shooters, because most of the Major shooters stay home.

 

In earlier years, almost all of the Limited shooters shot Major, and there were a lot more Limited shooters.

[Steppenwolf]

Recent Single Stack rankings,  Battle in the Bluegrass (April 20th) results (from Practiscore), first 11 places (and some damn good competitors). Four out of top 11 shot minor (that is 36% of top eleven). But 2018 Glock Area 6 Championship Limited Division (April 11th), the first two competitors shooting minor were 25th and 26th place. So, as Mr. Moto noted earlier in the thread--it would appear that if you want to shoot minor (with chance to score higher) in a division that allows major, you should stick to Single Stack. These are statistics from recent major matches with top-level shooters and are self-evident. Unless you have an agenda the case is closed (wanna win in a division with minor and major then shoot major). Codicil (if you are shooting local matches with lukewarm heat at the match it doesn't matter as much, but in a bigger pond there are bigger fish and then it does matter a lot).

 

1-Michael G	100	1265.4459	158.13	89.43	Single Stack	G		MAJOR	TY68791	185	0	83	11	4	0	0
2-Randy A	98.41	1245.3461	159.08	88.01	Single Stack	M		MAJOR	L3208	182	0	87	10	4	0	0
3-Tim H	97.95	1239.5604	168.12	87.6	Single Stack	G		MAJOR	TY68934	212	0	60	9	2	0	0
4-John V	97.21	1230.1865	161.92	86.94	Single Stack	M		MINOR	TY79695	208	0	66	9	0	0	1
5-Mike D	93.04	1177.3557	176.29	83.21	Single Stack	M		MAJOR	Fy43270	198	0	77	7	1	0	0
6-Paul K	91.37	1156.2735	180.06	81.72	Single Stack	G		MINOR	A87361	234	0	46	1	2	0	1
7-Andrew H	91.33	1155.7892	179.07	81.68	Single Stack	M		MAJOR	Ty86867	196	0	74	13	0	0	0
8-Gilbert P	90.47	1144.7878	176.01	80.9	Single Stack	M		MINOR	Ty32342	214	0	66	2	1	0	0
9-Gerrit H	89.44	1131.8239	188.69	79.99	Single Stack	M		MAJOR	A84544	210	0	69	4	0	0	0
10-Jason E	85.74	1084.9652	185.06	76.68	Single Stack	G		MAJOR	A45411	196	0	71	11	5	0	0
11-Gary B	83.83	1060.8098	185.98	74.97	Single Stack	M		MINOR	A57152	207	0	66	8	2	0	0

Edited April 30, 2018 by Steppenwolf
Typo

[waktasz]

Except battle in the Bluegrass was won by a Production gun shooting Minor.

 

And the winner of Single Stack (shooting Major) at Area 6 finished in 66th place overall. The Production winner was 14th and there were 8 other Production shooters head of the SS winner.

 

Limited is a different story, but given the options in Single Stack I'd rather have 10 round mags.

[Steppenwolf]

Not sure what your point is. Single Stack is a separate division and a Production gun does not enter into the statistical equation nor does the overall placement of a Single Stack shooter in a match. The statistics provided only support the conclusion that you have a better chance of winning Single Stack (if shooting minor) in a larger match than you do shooting minor in Limited. You can bring lasagna to a chili cookoff, but you ain't gonna win first place.

[Nathanb]

52 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Except battle in the Bluegrass was won by a Production gun shooting Minor.

 

And the winner of Single Stack (shooting Major) at Area 6 finished in 66th place overall. The Production winner was 14th and there were 8 other Production shooters head of the SS winner.

 

Limited is a different story, but given the options in Single Stack I'd rather have 10 round mags.

To even take this a step further. The 2nd and 3rd place shooters each had four mikes and a bunch of Deltas while the production minor guy shot all alphas and Charlie’s.  

 

This means its its easier to shoot minor right?

 

[waktasz]

It does matter. Production is an entire division of 10 round minor guns, and they SMOKE single stack, where most of the guys are shooting major. 

[waktasz]

It's "easier" to shoot minor, but you can get away with being looser with your hits shooting Major. In Limited, this allows you to go faster, especially on partial targets. 

In SS, I'd rather have the extra rounds