mwray Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 I’ve tried finding the answer in the rule book and couldn’t so here I am with a question. On our last stage yesterday we had a target that was all covered up with no shoots except for exactly 25% of the lower Azone. A lot of people would pump a round into a barrel beside the target. One guy shot the ground about 25 yards in front of the target. So how close does the round have to impact near the target to count as truly engaging the target? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konkapot Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 As long as it's not an unsafe shot, i.e. too close to the shooter, there's really no way to say that the target wasn't "engaged." I don't know that deliberately shooting a prop is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 You need to make the r.o. believe that you shot at the target (10.2.7) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWord Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 Since I have seen shooters really trying miss badly, if the round(s) were in a safe direction generally in the direction of the target in question, it is hard to give a FTSA. Shooting the barrel, I agree is a bit much, but... The competitor will take the misses and avoid the potential for a -10 penalty for the no-shoot (s). I see this no different than competitors who will go for upper A/B zones to avoid a tight shot on the lower A-zone. The penalty may not be worth the risk. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, mwray said: One guy shot the ground about 25 yards in front of the target. Total target presentation is 25% of the A zone at what distance? Stage designed by a bullseye or PCC shooter? I guess it would be similar to an 8" plate in front of a no shoot at the same distance. Edited November 12, 2017 by Flatland Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 Should have put a no-shoot on the barrel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 And apparently the ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 Can't shoot closer than 10 feet from the shooter, over the berm, into a prop closer than 10 feet or any other DQ type offence. Other than that in the direction of the target is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler2you Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 Stage under discussion is the first one in the video below. Not a great shot of the target, but you get the idea: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 At what point though, do we make the call that shooters are deliberately not engaging the target? I fully understand the rule but if I’m standing directly behind a shooter who is shooting well otherwise and he deliberately shoots the ground 25 yards in front of a target, I’m not so sure that qualifies as engaged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 18 minutes ago, tyler2you said: Stage under discussion is the first one in the video below. Not a great shot of the target, but you get the idea: You can barely see it tucked in behind the barrels. Yup, two into the barrel and call it good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 (edited) It's technically legal, I suppose, but there's a certain "devilish" quality to that target. But then, why not engage it? No-shoots are -10 each, but so are Ms. While you'll gain a bit of time by throwing a shot in the general direction of the target and taking 2 Ms, you'll definitely lose the possible +10 points for the As. Hitting only one A and 1 NS is -5 pts net; 2 NS is -20, but so are those 2 Ms. Practice, practice, practice... Edited November 12, 2017 by teros135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler2you Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 8 minutes ago, teros135 said: It's technically legal, I suppose, but there's a certain "devilish" quality to that target. But then, why not engage it? No-shoots are -10 each, but so are Ms. While you'll gain a bit of time by throwing a shot in the general direction of the target and taking 2 Ms, you'll definitely lose the possible +10 points for the As. Hitting only one A and 1 NS is -5 pts net; 2 NS is -20, but so are those 2 Ms. Practice, practice, practice... It only required 1 shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 7 minutes ago, tyler2you said: It only required 1 shot. Gotcha. Still, M and NS are equal in points down (-10) and an A is +5. That's a potential 15-point difference from the other guys. Just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 Can't shoot ... into a prop closer than 10 feet or any other DQ type offence.Please quote a rule on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 50 minutes ago, PatJones said: Please quote a rule on this. 10.4.2 only only applies if the target is more than 10 feet away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler2you Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, teros135 said: Gotcha. Still, M and NS are equal in points down (-10) and an A is +5. That's a potential 15-point difference from the other guys. Just sayin'. It was a 90 point stage (8 paper requiring 2 hits, 1 paper requiring 1 hit, and 1 steel). If you were to attempt the partial and shoot 18 Alphas in 17 seconds, you'd end up with a HF of 5.29 If you just threw a shot towards the partial and shot 17 Alphas and 1 Mike in 14 seconds, you'd end up with a HF of 5.35 So, if you could save 3 seconds by not having to stop, set up squarely, and take a very careful aimed shot the math worked out. The opportunity to tag a no-shoot also factors into the risk/reward equation. The top 2 pistol shooters on the stage shot it in a little over 11 seconds and took the Mike. Third place went to a pistol shooter that made the shot and did it in 17.39 Edited November 12, 2017 by tyler2you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwray Posted November 12, 2017 Author Share Posted November 12, 2017 Gotcha. Still, M and NS are equal in points down (-10) and an A is +5. That's a potential 15-point difference from the other guys. Just sayin'. Wouldn’t it be -20? -10 for the NS and -10 for the M ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgj3 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 16 minutes ago, mwray said: Wouldn’t it be -20? -10 for the NS and -10 for the M ? Correct. And -5 for not hitting the A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 I'm still trying to figure out how someone shot the ground 25 yards in front of what appears to be a <20 yard target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, PatJones said: Please quote a rule on this. Fat fingers, hitting a prop is not in of itself a dq. 10.4.2 A shot which strikes the ground within 10 feet of the competitor, except when shooting at a paper target closer than 10 feet to the competitor. But USPSA Principles 5. Practical competition is conducted using practical targets, which reflect the general size and shape of such objects as the firearm used may reasonably be called upon to hit in their primary intended use. 6. The challenge presented in practical competition must be done with the utmost safety in mind. Courses of Fire should follow a practical rationale and simulate hypothetical situations in which firearms might reasonably be used. AT NROI training years ago, the Trainer was talking about unrealistic targets not permissible in USPSA I brought up having a target simulating a molotov cocktail (bowling pin) he didn't buy it said it's not legal. Then there is 4.1.3 No-shoots must be clearly marked or be of a single color different from scoring targets. Metal no-shoots in the general size and shape of authorized paper targets may be used. Metal no-shoots do not have a non-scoring border. No-shoots may not have holes cut in them and be used as penalty targets that must be shot through to hit a scoring target; see 9.1.5. So I guess the target in question had 4 hostages stationed around him so only the belly button area could be engaged? The sides and bottom one can buy, the top no shoot? suspended in mid air? being held by bad guy? How would the no shoot get there? How reasonable is it? When a course designer puts forth a target such as that, IMHO you have to also give leeway to the competitor. Years ago I saw a local match with a similar target, it only had the A zone of the upper A/B zone visible at 7 yards if memory serves, I was the only one to get both shots on it and not hit a no-shoot. It was before the language of 4.1.3 above. Edited November 12, 2017 by pskys2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 Illegal stage, cannot require different number of hits on paper targets. Shoot the noshoots all you want , and then get the stage tossed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JodiH Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 It's not an illegal stage. The WSB can specify that certain targets require a different number of required hits (9.5.1). I personally don't like having targets with different numbers of required hits, but it is legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 You got that from 9.5.1? Read it again slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 "Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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