PCC with a (full-auto capable) subgun

[Garrett]

I was going to post something about how it looks like the rules are written such that shooting full-auto in PCC is actually not currently disallowed.

5.1.11 specifically disallows handguns capable of "burst and/or fully automatic operation". But that is specific to "handguns", which a PCC is not. One could argue that 5.1.10 disallows handguns with shoulder stocks or foregrips, but these are obviously allowed in PCC.

But now I see the D8 Appendix has been updated to state: "All references to handgun in the current edition of the rule book are deemed to apply to PCC as well..." So does the "capable of [full-auto]" prohibition apply here too?

I can understand people having a fit if subgunners started showing up shooting full-auto. Or maybe they would just be upset if the subgunners didn't share :-) But I don't think we need a prohibition on shooting guns that are "capable" of full-auto, as long as they are used in semi-auto mode.

This has been discussed a little, but not since the recent update to the rules. I did write an email to Troy McManus tonight asking for clarification.

I suppose the follow-up would be if modifying a machine-gun to the point that it wouldn't work in full-auto be sufficient? I am thinking of something like modifying a spare Uzi grip housing so the selector would not move to the full-auto position. The gun is still a registered machine gun at this point, but for the purpose of the rules, it is not "capable of full auto". IMO that shouldn't be necessary, though.

[ChuckS]

But now I see the D8 Appendix has been updated to state: "All references to handgun in the current edition of the rule book are deemed to apply to PCC as well..." So does the "capable of [full-auto]" prohibition apply here too?

Yup

[dynamicalflinch]

We have a local match that draws a decent number of PCC shooters. Most of those guys participated in the same club's steel match where subguns are allowed. The guys running the match take your position, that as long as it isn't FA in the USPSA match they don't care. Makes sense that you would be able to shoot them in semi-auto, and the guys here would likely DQ for accidental (or intentional) FA fire during the USPSA sanctioned match. I'm sure the DNROI would be happy to comment...

[Sarge]

Ah yes, another thing nobody thought about beforehand.

My guess would be, they are allowed. Probably have some wording similar to the SBR. BUT, then again, they don't allow suppressors. Hmmm, probably for safety.

Probably best to Allow full auto PCC and restrict to semi only with a burst being a DQ?

THEN AGAIN, many ranges forbid full auto fire so even a mistaken few round burst could open up a bunch of issues, such as losing USPSA at the club, shooter banned from club, legal problem for the club, shutting down club, etc.

Like I said, should have been addressed clearly in the rules. Some will say it has been and others see loop holes.

[Nik Habicht]

Suppressors are probably disallowed to deal with timers, to ensure the last shot gets recorded, even under less than ideal conditions....

[Sarge]

Suppressors are probably disallowed to deal with timers, to ensure the last shot gets recorded, even under less than ideal conditions....

Yes, that's what I meant by safety. RO's would be getting too close to the gun to try to pick up a shot.

[LilBunniFuFu]

I sent an email to troy about this same issue last week. No response yet.

[Cy Soto]

I sent an email to troy about this same issue last week. No response yet.

Eagerly awaiting to hear what Troy's response is...

[mreed911]

Not mine - another shooter at a local match.

[NickBlasta]

If you can afford a machine gun you can afford to buy the semi-auto version to slum it at the match with.

[Garrett]

If you can afford a machine gun you can afford to buy the semi-auto version to slum it at the match with.

That's not the point. I can't speak for others, but I would prefer not to use a different gun. I like to shoot full-auto subgun matches, but only get the opportunity once or twice a year. Not only would USPSA give me the opportunity to use my subguns in competition more often (even if only in semi-auto), it's great practice and familiarization with the same gun / sights / trigger. It's more rewarding than just doing drills for SMG practice.

[rishii]

Not mine - another shooter at a local match.

OMG

they put a red dot on a Thompson, Sgt Rock would not approve

[Thaunk]

Not mine - another shooter at a local match.

Now that's the way to shoot a match!

[thermobollocks]

Rifle rules permit the capability but disallow its use. Something with a selector with a semi-auto position is, under multigun rules, legal, but ripping off a burst is not.

Not sure what pistol rules will do with it.

[okorpheus]

The relevant rules have already been listed:

Appendix D8 #12

All references to “handgun” are deemed to apply to PCC as well, except where the terms “holstering”, “drawing”, or “re-holstering” are referenced. PCC handling is specifically referenced in the PCC rules addendum.

5.1.11

Handguns offering “burst” and/or fully automatic operation are

prohibited.

The combination of those rules seem to clearly rule out the use of an automatic PCC.

[shred]

FWIW, that Thompson is a re-welded post sample, worth less than many Production guns so no "they can afford another one" or "how can they put a dot on a priceless relic?".

The Full Auto feature was blocked for the duration of the match so it was not capable of burst or fully automatic operation and the RM consensus was that was acceptable per USPSA rules.

Real fun, not real competitive with a 15 lb rifle with a 10 lb trigger pull and open-bolt lock time that can be measured with a calendar.

[mreed911]

FWIW, that Thompson is a re-welded post sample, worth less than many Production guns so no "they can afford another one" or "how can they put a dot on a priceless relic?".

The Full Auto feature was blocked for the duration of the match so it was not capable of burst or fully automatic operation and the RM consensus was that was acceptable per USPSA rules.

Real fun, not real competitive with a 15 lb rifle with a 10 lb trigger pull and open-bolt lock time that can be measured with a calendar.

But it was fun to watch and now I have a story to tell about "the time I saw someone shoot a stage with a Tommy Gun!"

[aandabooks]

Unfortunately since I live in IL, I won't have to worry about whether or not I can run a full-auto PCC at a match.

[Garrett]

The Full Auto feature was blocked for the duration of the match so it was not capable of burst or fully automatic operation and the RM consensus was that was acceptable per USPSA rules.

That was my plan as well, barring a response from Troy. That would seem to meet the rules, as currently written.

Of course, it would be easy enough to address with a single sentence, much like they did for SBRs. After all, it is a provisional division, and they have asked for input on the rules.

[jrswanson1]

But it was fun to watch and now I have a story to tell about "the time I saw someone shoot a stage with a Tommy Gun!"

It's funner to actually shoot a match with one. I've shot two 3-gun matches where someone used a select fire Tommy Gun, and when we had to team up, I got to shoot a semi-auto version of one. Ripped my hand open with it trying to charge it.

[Boxer1]

I shot a local practice match with my 9mm AR one night and the timer would not pick up all of the shots. That was with no suppressor shooting 125 gr. bullets a little over minor so not quite super sonic. I am guessing that is why the no suppressor rule.

[Neomet]

Not mine - another shooter at a local match.

Now that's the way to shoot a match!

I SOOOooooo want to do something like that. Dad carried a Thompson in WWII and it would be damned cool to shoot one of these in PCC.

[uod]

I shot a local practice match with my 9mm AR one night and the timer would not pick up all of the shots. That was with no suppressor shooting 125 gr. bullets a little over minor so not quite super sonic. I am guessing that is why the no suppressor rule.

We had the same problem. A few of us running the PSA AR-9 and a few running JP's. The RO had to stay on top of the shooter in order for all shots to be picked up. I was surprised. I'll be experimenting and adjusting the timer sensitivity at the next match.

[rowdyb]

Another PCC question since I didn't find it in a search or the rule book, can you fun a vertical foregrip in PCC?

[JAFO]

36 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Another PCC question since I didn't find it in a search or the rule book, can you fun a vertical foregrip in PCC?

I don't think so.  PCC addendum 5.1.12 refers to App D8, with all other handgun equipment rules applying to PCC.  Since there's no provision for it in App D8, then 5.1.10 would apply.

5.1.10 Handguns with shoulder stocks and/or fore grips of any kind are prohibited.