Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[AWLAZS]

Chuck, If you look back through the thread some of the folks that think it the rifle division should be added to the pistol matches say because its so popular.

I think if its worth doing do it right. It should be its own thing. I think more people would shoot it if they didn't have to decide between pistol or rifle. Heck I would give it a try. But I am not going to leave my pistol at home to shoot a rifle at my pistol events.

A stand alone sport under the banner of uspsa would not be that big of a deal if the interest is there. The people interested in the sport would have to do the work.

I have discussed this topic with my club members. They did not have a lot of interest in it. A couple of guys said they might try it out but were not keen on missing the pistol match. It seemed to me, after talking with my club, a stand alone match would be more popular.

[OPENB]

Agree, Chuck. My local match directors will either offer it or they won't. I'll still be there shooting something. Those that don't want PCC at the match will either show up or they won't. Why are we still kicking this? No one is changing any one's mind. Same circular jibber jabber taking up band width.

[Strick]

There is a significant difference between running an existing match for an existing sport and trying to start something on its own from scratch. Could you point out where I said it's going to be so popular? Let alone so popular to support a new standalone match. Actually never mind. I don't care enough about it to argue with random people on the internet.

I forgot to add.....If running a PCC match is significantly different than a handgun match then how are no changes required to put a rifle in a handgun match. It is not starting from scratch, it is using the handgun and 3gun rules as a guideline and making changes where needed. All it takes is the people that want to shoot it setting it up.

[FearsomeCritter]

Why wouldn't the rules apply to everyone shooting the same match?

What shooters would I be turning away? I have never had to tell someone with the proper equipment they could not shoot the match.

Because changes in start position only applies to PCC as stated in the provisional appendix.

[FearsomeCritter]

There is a significant difference between running an existing match for an existing sport and trying to start something on its own from scratch. Could you point out where I said it's going to be so popular? Let alone so popular to support a new standalone match. Actually never mind. I don't care enough about it to argue with random people on the internet.

I forgot to add.....If running a PCC match is significantly different than a handgun match then how are no changes required to put a rifle in a handgun match. It is not starting from scratch, it is using the handgun and 3gun rules as a guideline and making changes where needed. All it takes is the people that want to shoot it setting it up.

Running a PCC only match is not significantly different than running a USPSA match with PCC. What is being argued is that tacking PCC onto USPSA is different and easier than setting up and organizing a completely separate match.

Edited March 7, 2016 by FearsomeCritter

[jhgtyre]

In order to make people happy with the addition of PCC perhaps we should forbid the posting of "overall" results. There seems to be a faction that thinks the "overalls" matter and I feel that those people shouldn't have to fear seeing someone from another division ahead of them in a make believe list of scores. Honestly the only people who should feel proud of themselves when they look at the "overalls" are those shooting one of the low capacity divisions.

[Walküre]

I am another who sees trying to add rifles to a pistol match as a bad thing. I'm all for trying out all kinds of divisions, but this is adding a whole new discipline, and one that presents some very real differences when it comes to designing stages.

Differences in basic start positions aren't really the problem. Other things are harder to address, and any of these may - and I would argue, will likely - lead to stage designs being modified to accommodate rifles at the expense of pistols.

For example, I would expect that matches offering PCC would tend to:

- Eliminate props that force SHO/WHO, because people will be uncomfortable forcing one-handed rifle shooting.

- Eliminate some tight port shots, because of concerns with maneuvering a 16" carbine in there.

- Eliminate any sections requiring tight movement, again because of concerns with taking a rifle through them.

And with regards to starts, people may just start deciding not to have any "boxed" starts, or other unconventional start positions, because it's easier and simpler to have one start position for everybody rather than have two that depend on what the person is shooting.

Not everybody runs stages that would present problems for rifles, but some do. Adding in rifles limits the potential stage design possibilities - things that are entirely possible (and safe) with pistols - and I see that as a bad thing.

[ctay]

In order to make people happy with the addition of PCC perhaps we should forbid the posting of "overall" results. There seems to be a faction that thinks the "overalls" matter and I feel that those people shouldn't have to fear seeing someone from another division ahead of them in a make believe list of scores. Honestly the only people who should feel proud of themselves when they look at the "overalls" are those shooting one of the low capacity divisions.

This kind of condescending attitude does not make anyone more likely to support you. Just because overall results are not important to you doesn't make the fact that they are important to some less valuable.

This is really tiring. For the umpteenth time, having concerns about this change does not mean that I 1) don't like fun 2) am some sniveling jerk inflating my ego by looking at overall results 3) am some backwards Luddite that is against change or 4) any other condescending or insulting descriptor that you can arrange to serve your purpose.

There are legitimate concerns that legitimately need to be addressed before making what is, in truth, a major change to what has always been a pistol match.

Moreover, this is not a either / or decision. In fact, there are many ways to introduce PCC into USPSA. Shoe horning it into a pistol match is but one of them. Adding it as a new discipline is another. I've laid out how to have your cake and eat it too by running this new discipline separately but concurrently with an existing handgun match - a solution that has many benefits over and above the reduction in controversy.

[PPGMD]

-Eliminate props that force SHO/WHO, because people will be uncomfortable forcing one-handed rifle shooting.

Mike Foley demonstrated how it can be done on an earlier video.

- Eliminate some tight port shots, because of concerns with maneuvering a 16" carbine in there.

Look up the VTAC barricade, the ports on that barricade are tighter than anything I've seen at a USPSA match. And rifle shooters commonly shoot all the ports on the barricade.

- Eliminate any sections requiring tight movement, again because of concerns with taking a rifle through them.

Mike Foley's video dealt with that too. It is simply a technique issue similar to how we learn to run up range with our gun still facing downrange.

[Beastly]

I'm still waiting for a single COMPELLING reason NOT to do it. All I see is the spreading of a lot of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).

I would rather shoot Production than PCC, at least for now. But I still want to be able to shoot PCC as an option.

Are relatively inconsequential changes required to support PCC? Yes. Anything I am honstly concerned about? No.

Do I think that somehow including PCC will somehow be the downfall of USPSA? In a word, No.

Should USPSA need to be at the vanguard of experimenting with promising new ideas? Yes.

Will all new ideas succeed (like Carry Optics, PCC, etc.)? I don't know, but I am happy to see the experiment through and am pleased to see USPSA making active attempts to evolve and stay relevant with member and market demand.

[Alaskapopo]

Overall results don't matter to the sport. They don't matter at all hence the disclaimer on the score sheets.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited March 7, 2016 by Alaskapopo

[bikerburgess]

As a MD if I can talk my ranges BOD into allowing them (range policy on pistol bays) I can guarantee I will change nothing in the stages I design and set up. I believe the whole point of adding PCC is because there are shooters that want to shoot them on the stages we are presenting now. Changing the stages is the last thing those interested in shooting PCC want, they have seen (and probably shot) our stages and want to shoot them with their carbine, walls. ports, odd angled leans, weak and strong side only, all of it. So far as I can tell the only "change" that has been talked about is start positions for the PCCs only, and even I'm smart enough to be able to remember that the guys with the long guns start facing down range.

[caspian guy]

Has anyone seen an addendum or anything of the like to describe the correct alternate stage procedures/start positions to be used for classifier stages (so that there is consistency). I'd think for instance at a mininmum for something like Mini Mart you'd want to start with the carbine on top of the table instead of on the shelf under it?

Edited March 8, 2016 by caspian guy

[fishsticks]

In order to make people happy with the addition of PCC perhaps we should forbid the posting of "overall" results. There seems to be a faction that thinks the "overalls" matter and I feel that those people shouldn't have to fear seeing someone from another division ahead of them in a make believe list of scores. Honestly the only people who should feel proud of themselves when they look at the "overalls" are those shooting one of the low capacity divisions.

This kind of condescending attitude does not make anyone more likely to support you. Just because overall results are not important to you doesn't make the fact that they are important to some less valuable.

This is really tiring. For the umpteenth time, having concerns about this change does not mean that I 1) don't like fun 2) am some sniveling jerk inflating my ego by looking at overall results 3) am some backwards Luddite that is against change or 4) any other condescending or insulting descriptor that you can arrange to serve your purpose.

There are legitimate concerns that legitimately need to be addressed before making what is, in truth, a major change to what has always been a pistol match.

Moreover, this is not a either / or decision. In fact, there are many ways to introduce PCC into USPSA. Shoe horning it into a pistol match is but one of them. Adding it as a new discipline is another. I've laid out how to have your cake and eat it too by running this new discipline separately but concurrently with an existing handgun match - a solution that has many benefits over and above the reduction in controversy.

Agreed.

And to those wanting a listing of how those opposed have been "harmed", it isn't possible yet. Why? Because none of the clubs in this area are offering the division. At least one can't with current range restrictions (no long guns in some bays). So - we may or may not even have any USPSA matches with PCC locally. Even then, some, all or none of my concerns may come to pass.

Regardless - as the poster above stated, this is a provisional division. As such, a discussion on the relative merits should be had. Which means there will be some opposed.

[jhgtyre]

In order to make people happy with the addition of PCC perhaps we should forbid the posting of "overall" results. There seems to be a faction that thinks the "overalls" matter and I feel that those people shouldn't have to fear seeing someone from another division ahead of them in a make believe list of scores. Honestly the only people who should feel proud of themselves when they look at the "overalls" are those shooting one of the low capacity divisions.

This kind of condescending attitude does not make anyone more likely to support you. Just because overall results are not important to you doesn't make the fact that they are important to some less valuable.

This is really tiring. For the umpteenth time, having concerns about this change does not mean that I 1) don't like fun 2) am some sniveling jerk inflating my ego by looking at overall results 3) am some backwards Luddite that is against change or 4) any other condescending or insulting descriptor that you can arrange to serve your purpose.

There are legitimate concerns that legitimately need to be addressed before making what is, in truth, a major change to what has always been a pistol match.

Moreover, this is not a either / or decision. In fact, there are many ways to introduce PCC into USPSA. Shoe horning it into a pistol match is but one of them. Adding it as a new discipline is another. I've laid out how to have your cake and eat it too by running this new discipline separately but concurrently with an existing handgun match - a solution that has many benefits over and above the reduction in controversy.

Not condescending at all. "HOA" is an imaginary win and we need to stop posting it. Your place in your division is the only thing that is real. Everything else is outside the rules. To make this change easier we need to clarify the rules and stop catering to those who like to see an imaginary placing in an imaginary division.

[AWLAZS]

In order to make people happy with the addition of PCC perhaps we should forbid the posting of "overall" results. There seems to be a faction that thinks the "overalls" matter and I feel that those people shouldn't have to fear seeing someone from another division ahead of them in a make believe list of scores. Honestly the only people who should feel proud of themselves when they look at the "overalls" are those shooting one of the low capacity divisions.

This kind of condescending attitude does not make anyone more likely to support you. Just because overall results are not important to you doesn't make the fact that they are important to some less valuable.

This is really tiring. For the umpteenth time, having concerns about this change does not mean that I 1) don't like fun 2) am some sniveling jerk inflating my ego by looking at overall results 3) am some backwards Luddite that is against change or 4) any other condescending or insulting descriptor that you can arrange to serve your purpose.

There are legitimate concerns that legitimately need to be addressed before making what is, in truth, a major change to what has always been a pistol match.

Moreover, this is not a either / or decision. In fact, there are many ways to introduce PCC into USPSA. Shoe horning it into a pistol match is but one of them. Adding it as a new discipline is another. I've laid out how to have your cake and eat it too by running this new discipline separately but concurrently with an existing handgun match - a solution that has many benefits over and above the reduction in controversy.

Not condescending at all. "HOA" is an imaginary win and we need to stop posting it. Your place in your division is the only thing that is real. Everything else is outside the rules. To make this change easier we need to clarify the rules and stop catering to those who like to see an imaginary placing in an imaginary division.

I think HOA is important. We have folks that are the only person shooting in their division It gives them something to look at. I know when we stopped posting the HOA results I received a bunch of requests to get it back up on the webpage.

[ZackJones]

Has anyone seen an addendum or anything of the like to describe the correct alternate stage procedures/start positions to be used for classifier stages (so that their is consistently). I'd think for instance at a mininmum for somethin like minimart you'd want to start with the carbine on top of the table instead of on the shelf under it?

Nothing has been published yet but I posted a list of classifier issues I found on the USPSA forum so at least Troy is aware of some of the issues.

[Yardbird]

In order to make people happy with the addition of PCC perhaps we should forbid the posting of "overall" results. There seems to be a faction that thinks the "overalls" matter and I feel that those people shouldn't have to fear seeing someone from another division ahead of them in a make believe list of scores. Honestly the only people who should feel proud of themselves when they look at the "overalls" are those shooting one of the low capacity divisions.

This kind of condescending attitude does not make anyone more likely to support you. Just because overall results are not important to you doesn't make the fact that they are important to some less valuable.

This is really tiring. For the umpteenth time, having concerns about this change does not mean that I 1) don't like fun 2) am some sniveling jerk inflating my ego by looking at overall results 3) am some backwards Luddite that is against change or 4) any other condescending or insulting descriptor that you can arrange to serve your purpose.

There are legitimate concerns that legitimately need to be addressed before making what is, in truth, a major change to what has always been a pistol match.

Moreover, this is not a either / or decision. In fact, there are many ways to introduce PCC into USPSA. Shoe horning it into a pistol match is but one of them. Adding it as a new discipline is another. I've laid out how to have your cake and eat it too by running this new discipline separately but concurrently with an existing handgun match - a solution that has many benefits over and above the reduction in controversy.

Not condescending at all. "HOA" is an imaginary win and we need to stop posting it. Your place in your division is the only thing that is real. Everything else is outside the rules. To make this change easier we need to clarify the rules and stop catering to those who like to see an imaginary placing in an imaginary division.

Your arrogance astounds!

This is getting slammed through asap, with not a lot of forethought. It's unfortunate even, that President Foley's video includes illegal, one handed, PCC shooting.

[mrpredictable]

Illegal?!?

[fishsticks]

Illegal?!?

The video notwithstanding, how do we reconcile 8.1 and 8.2 with what has been published? All I have seen is the appendix, which talks briefly about start position but doesn't address some of the conflicts with existing rules if you start touching the firearm.

[motosapiens]

Not condescending at all. "HOA" is an imaginary win and we need to stop posting it. Your place in your division is the only thing that is real. Everything else is outside the rules. To make this change easier we need to clarify the rules and stop catering to those who like to see an imaginary placing in an imaginary division.

I strongly disagree with you. In local matches there may not be many good shooters in my division, so it is very helpful to me to gauge my progress against the overall winner and against other known shooters in different divisions. And regardless of who shows up, SS and production are on entirely equal footing imho, so it is useful to compare oneself against everyone in both divisions if you shoot one of them.

If you don't want to look at overall results, then don't look at them, but don't infringe on my knowledge.

Edited March 7, 2016 by motosapiens

[Yardbird]

Illegal?!?

By Appendix D8, yes!

[fishsticks]

Illegal?!?

By Appendix D8, yes!

Where?

It says you have to fire from the shoulder, which he does in the video. Only one hand on gun, but fired from shoulder. Or am I missing something?

[AWLAZS]

He shoots it like a pistol and off one shoulder

[Yardbird]

Some folks only see what they want to see...

3:13 in the video...