2016 USPSA Multigun Nationals

[ChuckS]

Some stages called hits on self indicating targets and others did not.

Thanks, but I meant to ask if the ROs were not calling hits for all shooters on that particular stage?

[Doug H.]

Calling hits on reactive steel and slug gongs was considered optional and is not required under USPSA rules. I made the decision on my stage, 11, to call hits on the rifle steel unless the shooter asked us not to call hits. Not one shooter asked us not to call hits.

Doug

8.6.5 Calling hits on self indicating targets or fixed metal targets by range officials is allowed and not considered interference or coaching. If range officials call a hit in error, when an actual miss occurred, the call of “hit” will stand and is not reason for a reshoot.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Doug H.

[mike_pinto]

"Could have 10.6'd someone..."

Interesting. What was the issue?

Cursing AT the RO's for a procedure (not calling hits on slug targets 50 yards away that had big flashers) set forth by the MD and RM can and should get you DQ'd for unsportsmanlike conduct. The RO's are there to make sure we have fun and are safe and follow the stage description. Not to be the target of frustration and cursing because you suck too bad to know if you hit an 18" x 24" piece of steel with a slug, that swings and flashes, at 50 yards. I could see the frustration if the RO in question was being "that guy" but there was really nothing to incite that attitude. But it all worked out in the end and nobody got sent home or their feelings hurt.. That was the only incident and interestingly enough, the person in question went one for one on the slugs and never hesitated calling his own shots. All worked up for nothing it seems.

[ac4wordplay]

"Could have 10.6'd someone..."

Interesting. What was the issue?

Cursing AT the RO's for a procedure (not calling hits on slug targets 50 yards away that had big flashers) set forth by the MD and RM can and should get you DQ'd for unsportsmanlike conduct. The RO's are there to make sure we have fun and are safe and follow the stage description. Not to be the target of frustration and cursing because you suck too bad to know if you hit an 18" x 24" piece of steel with a slug, that swings and flashes, at 50 yards. I could see the frustration if the RO in question was being "that guy" but there was really nothing to incite that attitude. But it all worked out in the end and nobody got sent home or their feelings hurt.. That was the only incident and interestingly enough, the person in question went one for one on the slugs and never hesitated calling his own shots. All worked up for nothing it seems.

Thanks for the info.

[ziebart]

I assume that the ROs on each stage were consistent across all squads. I didn't stay to watch them or look at videos to check. I feel the quality of the ROs were good, and I don't feel the need to second guess their decision.

Our squad had a discussion about some ROs calling and some not. To me it came down to the background of each RO. I only wish I would have paid better attention or asked a question during the brief. It sucked having to watch a teammate try to have a conversation on the clock. But calling hits is optional and we don't do it for flying clays which also can't be checked after the ULSC.

[mike_pinto]

I think all shots that are at a distance (say past 100 yards) that you cannot be 100% clear on whether you are hitting or not with non-magnified optics or irons, should be called for everyone by the RO. But, that's my personal opinion. The stages in Vegas that all the shots were in a bay, probably didn't need to be called since it was pretty easy to tell. Doug was on stage 11 and they were out to 200 or so, so calling them was in the best interest of everyone.. Even the 150 yard triple steel flashers were a little tough to see at points during the day..

All in all it was a great time shooting and working the match. Had a blast with my old friends Scott and Doug for sure. You boys are crazy!!!

Mike

[CJW]

At every stage with reactive targets, the ROs clearly stated during the stage briefing one of the following (1) hits would be called; (2) hits would no be called; (3) hits would be called unless the shooter requested otherwise. Sure, it varied by stage, but on any given stage the RO intentions were clearly stated and consistently followed. One stage had a very strange definition of "low ready" for the rifle (it was actually IPSC port arms, the way they described it), but their intended position was explained during the briefing and enforced for everyone.

Honestly, this was one of the best ROed matches I have been to. I wish my shooting had been up to the level of the ROing.

[CraigS.]

I thought the match was the best yet, since Pete took over the MG nationals.

I was surprised at the RO's (not Mike P) reason given for not calling slug hits on the flash targets on stage 12

quote: "That would be considered coaching" even though they didn't need to be called.

It struck me funny as hell that was the standard (calling hits) for the other stages even stage 5 with 50 yards rifle flash targets.

Edited April 20, 2016 by CraigS.

[bishop414]

I thought the match was the best yet, since Pete took over the MG nationals.

I was surprised at the RO's (not Mike P) reason given for not calling slug hits on the flash targets on stage 12

quote: "That would be considered coaching" even though they didn't need to be called.

It struck me funny as hell that was the standard (calling hits) for the other stages even stage 5 with 50 yards rifle flash targets.

That was our concern on stage 12 as well. It is not coaching but the CRO was adamant that it was.

[StealthyBlagga]

Whether to call hits on targets inside 100 yards is very stage-dependent, and so it is proper that the decision fall to match staff. IMHO the default should be to call hits, except when doing so has a high potential to yield errors or disrupt the competitors performance; typically this only happens when the targets are very close and thus the cadence of fire is very fast.

On the stage in question, there were three large swinging flash-type slug plates at about 50 yards. I had two solid hits, and the flash card showed clearly, but my third hit was very marginal (top corner) and I barely saw the card bobble. I was really close to doing a standing reload to fire another shot, even hesitated for a fraction of a second before moving on through the stage, and it was only at the end of the stage that the RO confirmed he did see the flash card move. In this case, given the cadence of fire, I might have come down on the side of calling hits, but it was a close call either way.

So long as it is done consistently for every competitor, I am OK with continuing to let staff make the final determination inside 100 yards. However, beyond 100 yards, all self-resetting targets should have hits called.

[Chuck Anderson]

It's been 100 points since before Practiscore, iPads and even iPhones even existed. It's based on 100 percent which makes it easier to understand the numbers. Ft Benning experimented with different values (and I'm sure other) around 2006. Didn't really fix much.

Chuck, it maybe easier to understand, but it doesn't make much sense to have the same number of points for stage you shoot in 3 seconds and for stage you shoot in 80 seconds. You shot 3sec stage for a 0.5 second slower and you already lost 25 points for the match.

Fortunately most quality 3 Gun matches don't have stages that are only three seconds. That would be ridiculous and a complete waste to call it a stage. Any MD that put a 3 second stage in a match and actually called it a stage should be ashamed.

[outerlimits]

It's been 100 points since before Practiscore, iPads and even iPhones even existed. It's based on 100 percent which makes it easier to understand the numbers. Ft Benning experimented with different values (and I'm sure other) around 2006. Didn't really fix much.

Chuck, it maybe easier to understand, but it doesn't make much sense to have the same number of points for stage you shoot in 3 seconds and for stage you shoot in 80 seconds. You shot 3sec stage for a 0.5 second slower and you already lost 25 points for the match.

Fortunately most quality 3 Gun matches don't have stages that are only three seconds. That would be ridiculous and a complete waste to call it a stage. Any MD that put a 3 second stage in a match and actually called it a stage should be ashamed.

you wouldn't be referring to stage 11 at superstion?

[JayWord]

I thought the match was the best yet, since Pete took over the MG nationals.

I was surprised at the RO's (not Mike P) reason given for not calling slug hits on the flash targets on stage 12

quote: "That would be considered coaching" even though they didn't need to be called.

It struck me funny as hell that was the standard (calling hits) for the other stages even stage 5 with 50 yards rifle flash targets.

That was our concern on stage 12 as well. It is not coaching but the CRO was adamant that it was.

Answer out of context. If the WSB does not state we will be calling hits and a shooter turns and asks if that was a hit, it could be considered coaching. I made the decision not to call hits on the steel. It was my stage and I will take the responsibility for my decision. For 290+ shooters in the match it did not seem to be an issue.

Jay

[StealthyBlagga]

NEW SUBJECT:

I emailed Pete a few days ago to compliment him on another excellent match. IMHO, this was the best Nationals I have shot (2013-2016).

My one criticism was the long range target presentation, which - as a Limited Division shooter - I would characterize as "unacceptably poor". This is not a new complaint, as I felt the same way in 2013, 2014 and 2015, but 2016 was particularly bad IMHO. I did make some (hopefully) constructive recommendations to Pete for ways that target presentation might be improved for 2017, plus I have written to my AD and DNROI suggesting that long range target presentation "best practice" be encoded in USPSA Multigun rules. Hopefully my suggestions will get some traction.

I am definitely looking forward to the 2017 match returning to Las Vegas... targets I can see will be a welcome bonus.

[Religious Shooter]

Whatever you emailed him will it survive the howling winds for two days?

Is 2017 going to be in Vegas again?

[StealthyBlagga]

Whatever you emailed him will it survive the howling winds for two days?

Yes. For such circumstances I suggested using backers comprising white plastic 55 gallon barrels weighed down with rocks. Corplast sheet works better as a backer (less variation as the sun moves), but is vulnerable to wind damage unless really well secured. Just about ANY contrasting backer is better than nothing.

Is 2017 going to be in Vegas again?

That's the goal according to El Prez, assuming they can get a contract in place.

Edited April 22, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[Neomet]

Richard knows of what he speaks when discussing backers. His matches have the absolute lowest "Where's Waldo" factor on long range targets of any I have shot anywhere and they have survived some pretty rough weather here. As an old blind guy I really appreciate it.

[El Guapo]

Is 2017 going to be in Vegas again?

I for one hope not. Nationals has been on the wrong side of the Mississippi River for far too long.

[AFguywhoshoots]

They pretty much already said it will be in Vegas again. Desert Sportsman's complex has some stuff the need to take care of, so they are taking a year off according to a board member that was on our squad. We should know within a couple of weeks where 2017 will be held, but it will be put on by Pete Rensing again.

[bmiller]

Is 2017 going to be in Vegas again?

I for one hope not. Nationals has been on the wrong side of the Mississippi River for far too long.

??????????

[Chuck Anderson]

They pretty much already said it will be in Vegas again. Desert Sportsman's complex has some stuff the need to take care of, so they are taking a year off according to a board member that was on our squad. We should know within a couple of weeks where 2017 will be held, but it will be put on by Pete Rensing again.

Desert Sportsman is kicking us out. They are shutting down the bays USPSA helped build where stages 9-12 were located at to put in another rifle bay. It'll be awhile before we go back to DS. But it'll probably happen. They booted us in the early 2000's also. Mike said they have a range in mind but want to wait until there is a signed contract before announcing it. Seemed like a really good idea to me.

[Religious Shooter]

Is 2017 going to be in Vegas again?

I for one hope not. Nationals has been on the wrong side of the Mississippi River for far too long.

If it goes back east or anywhere out of Vegas I doubt Rensing would be a significant factor in that match.

I wouldn't go. But it would be interesting to hear how the match turns out post-Rensing.

[ac4wordplay]

The discussion here http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=232375 and the position of some RMIs, prompted a few people to say they wouldn't work such a match again. That's unfortunate, because most ROs do a tough job pretty well, and skilled help can be hard to find. As the issue in the link above may have an effect on anyone who attends USPSA MG, you may want to weigh in.

I enjoyed most of the match and hope to be at the 2017 USPSA MG Nationals.

Edited April 23, 2016 by ac4wordplay