2016 USPSA Multigun Nationals

[euxx]

Could anyone comment why such huge time difference on Stage 8 between Jerry and Daniel? And even compared to other competitors in Tactical?

[Gooldylocks]

I'm happy to see Hunter up near the top in Open. dude is a bad ass, and hilarious.

[Chuck Anderson]

Could anyone comment why such huge time difference on Stage 8 between Jerry and Daniel? And even compared to other competitors in Tactical?

The winds were really bad on that stage. Well all stages. But that was the long range one. If they died or were consistent it wasn't too bad. But I know mid stage for me the wind changed directions. You shot the targets from two positions. I had to completely change my hold to the opposite side between positions. I'm betting something similar happened to Daniel.

[euxx]

Thanks Chuck. So it was somewhat toss of a coin? Did they have any indicator flags down range on that stage or you had to guess the winds?

[Chuck Anderson]

No flags. But with each shot you could see the dust kick up. The down side was that was only the wind at the point of impact. I walked down to the targets on Thursday and you could feel the wind change on the walk based on the shape of the bay. There were definitely some inequities in this match because of the wind. Not match staffs fault. They did a great job. Just the way it goes sometimes.

[Neomet]

Just curious... was Jerry shooting with the rest of the Super Squad? Conditions would probably be closer for all of them although I've seen the wind really change as a squad shoots it or as in Chuck's case while you are on the clock.

Hell of a great stage by Jerry regardless.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Neomet

[RUSSO]

I was an RO on stage 8 ---

Over the years, I have been very lucky enough to see both Jerry and Daniel shoot in many rifle long range stages. I can honestly say that the stage conditions were very close for both of these very talented Marksmen. Jerry was on his game and had a super great stage. I hope that this is not out of line nor offensive in any way, but unfortunately Daniel just did not go "one for one" as he usually does. Simple as that.

This was a very challenging stage and I witnessed many shooters miss that normally do not have any issues. The strong winds did not let up until Sunday but that still did not prevent some shooters from still timing out.

Great to see all of you at the event - Russ

Edited April 18, 2016 by RUSSO

[euxx]

It seem was the only stage Daniel was off and he caught up some of the lost time on other stages, which was quite amazing.

But if this match scored with timeplus (without points), the overall standings would have looked very different...

[wgj3]

Thank the shooting gods for points!

[euxx]

Thank the shooting gods for points!

Yes, but why 29sec stages were given the same amount of points as 80sec stages?

[kurtm]

Because that is the way many 3-gun entities do it. USPSA does it that way because each and every skill in 3-gun should be equally important. To put it more simply, it,s their match and their rules.

[euxx]

Of course it is their match, but I tend to think it is 100 points, because that is the default points value in PractiScore.

But on equal importance of things, it seem like they have achieved the opposite. The long shots became less important in the overall match.

[bluedevil008]

Of course it is their match, but I tend to think it is 100 points, because that is the default points value in PractiScore.

But on equal importance of things, it seem like they have achieved the opposite. The long shots became less important in the overall match.

Not at all. Just because one discipline takes longer to shoot, does that make it that much more important than some of the faster disciplines? The round count on that stage was also a bit lower than some of the others, so you could argue the longer shots were worth more anyways.

[Chuck Anderson]

Of course it is their match, but I tend to think it is 100 points, because that is the default points value in PractiScore.

It's been 100 points since before Practiscore, iPads and even iPhones even existed. It's based on 100 percent which makes it easier to understand the numbers. Ft Benning experimented with different values (and I'm sure other) around 2006. Didn't really fix much.

[euxx]

It's been 100 points since before Practiscore, iPads and even iPhones even existed. It's based on 100 percent which makes it easier to understand the numbers. Ft Benning experimented with different values (and I'm sure other) around 2006. Didn't really fix much.

Chuck, it maybe easier to understand, but it doesn't make much sense to have the same number of points for stage you shoot in 3 seconds and for stage you shoot in 80 seconds. You shot 3sec stage for a 0.5 second slower and you already lost 25 points for the match.

Similarly here, Daniel lost about 40 seconds on a 80 seconds stage and it cost him 50 points. So, over 11 other stages he only had to gain about 5 seconds per stage (most of them were 20..30 second stages) to recover from a loss on a stage 8.

All in all, Daniel did a great job there, but it feels like stage 8 was rated rather low for its difficulty.

[Religious Shooter]

Great match and stages. Thanks all for the hard work that you put in.

For some of the RO's... please note that dropping the bolt on certain chamber flags will cause problems. Best to ease the bolt down on the flag.

Several of my squad mates complained of having to beat at their bolt handles at make ready on the next stage. The flag had jammed up in the chamber/ejection port area. The long gun had previously been cleared and racked by an RO.

[StealthyBlagga]

... it doesn't make much sense to have the same number of points for stage you shoot in 3 seconds and for stage you shoot in 80 seconds. You shot 3sec stage for a 0.5 second slower and you already lost 25 points for the match.

...

"Sense" is often in the eye of the beholder. If I dare make reference to the martial origins of our sport, ask yourself if the stakes in a 3 second gunfight are any less than the stakes in an 80 second gunfight?

I favor giving each stage equal weight regardless of stage time or number of targets. Other folks feel equally strongly that other schemes are superior. This is a well worn argument that you will likely never reach consensus on.

Edited April 20, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[bluedevil008]

It's been 100 points since before Practiscore, iPads and even iPhones even existed. It's based on 100 percent which makes it easier to understand the numbers. Ft Benning experimented with different values (and I'm sure other) around 2006. Didn't really fix much.

Chuck, it maybe easier to understand, but it doesn't make much sense to have the same number of points for stage you shoot in 3 seconds and for stage you shoot in 80 seconds. You shot 3sec stage for a 0.5 second slower and you already lost 25 points for the match.

Similarly here, Daniel lost about 40 seconds on a 80 seconds stage and it cost him 50 points. So, over 11 other stages he only had to gain about 5 seconds per stage (most of them were 20..30 second stages) to recover from a loss on a stage 8.

All in all, Daniel did a great job there, but it feels like stage 8 was rated rather low for its difficulty.

It's not "only" gain 5 seconds per other stages. On a 30 second stage, 5 seconds is a LOT. The difficulty to gain that time up is immense, and somehow he did that and then some. That's why stages are given equal points, because 5 seconds on a fast discipline could be 20%, but it could be as little as 6-7% on a long range stage.

Not to mention, much less decision making and stage planning goes into long range stages, so since he lost one stage by 40-50%, how should that negate the fact that he won the most stages by far and shot the rest the most consistently?

[ziebart]

I agree, a consensus may never be reached, and that is just fine. Each way has advantages and proponents as well as disadvantages depending on the perspective it is viewed from. Scoring methods are dependent on stage design and balance in the match. Unbalanced stages can exacerbate problems. I do not feel that this match had unbalanced stages. Yes some were shorter than others, but that is the nature of the game when using a range that cannot have medium/long range on every stage.

For the most part people will shoot the match regardless of how the stages are weighted. For the others there are already a dozen threads on Enos to debate the merits of each system.

ETA: Look at stage 12 for some time shifts. I was 3rd tac, and lost just under 21 match points for being 7.38 seconds slower than Daniel. That stage had several ways to shoot it with some being much faster than others if executed properly. Unfortunately if executed poorly they could get you DQd for slugs on sub min distance steel knock downs. I went with the safer plan to have 4 bird loaded with 5 slugs on top. It required extra loading, but reduced the risk of failure. Daniel bet on his skill and won. Others not so much.

Edited April 20, 2016 by ziebart

[Neomet]

I had one of my typical 12 paragraph longwinded posts all ready to go but then decided to parse it down just a bit:

See post 86. Everything else is opinions over a beer as there is no clear "best" way.

[actionshooter]

As far as scoring goes, I don't really care as long as the match is a good one......and this was one of the good ones. I'll shoot it again for sure, thank you to Pete and everyone else who made it happen!

Steve

[mike_pinto]

ETA: Look at stage 12 for some time shifts. I was 3rd tac, and lost just under 21 match points for being 7.38 seconds slower than Daniel. That stage had several ways to shoot it with some being much faster than others if executed properly. Unfortunately if executed poorly they could get you DQd for slugs on sub min distance steel knock downs. I went with the safer plan to have 4 bird loaded with 5 slugs on top. It required extra loading, but reduced the risk of failure. Daniel bet on his skill and won. Others not so much.

Daniel was a freak on that stage. I was running him and he made up almost all of that time on the pistol. There were some fine pistol shooters for sure in that match, but he shot it with reckless abandon. He also went 1-1 on the slugs and didn't slow down for the paper. IIRC the closest 2nd fastest time was 4 seconds behind. We only had one person DQ and he did some strange thing that nobody else probably even thought about. He shot the first 3 slugs, than two bird, than ran to the front and shot 3 more slugs, came back to the plates on the right. We saw one slug paper engaged with bird and we were hoping he just didn't put enough slugs in. He did. That was our only DQ. Could have 10.6'd someone, but took the higher road. If the RO's tell you they are not going to call hits, don't stand there and argue about it and call them F&ckers.. Especially after they have been continuously sand blasted for 3 days..

[ChuckS]

ETA: Look at stage 12 for some time shifts. I was 3rd tac, and lost just under 21 match points for being 7.38 seconds slower than Daniel. That stage had several ways to shoot it with some being much faster than others if executed properly. Unfortunately if executed poorly they could get you DQd for slugs on sub min distance steel knock downs. I went with the safer plan to have 4 bird loaded with 5 slugs on top. It required extra loading, but reduced the risk of failure. Daniel bet on his skill and won. Others not so much.

Daniel was a freak on that stage. I was running him and he made up almost all of that time on the pistol. There were some fine pistol shooters for sure in that match, but he shot it with reckless abandon. He also went 1-1 on the slugs and didn't slow down for the paper. IIRC the closest 2nd fastest time was 4 seconds behind. We only had one person DQ and he did some strange thing that nobody else probably even thought about. He shot the first 3 slugs, than two bird, than ran to the front and shot 3 more slugs, came back to the plates on the right. We saw one slug paper engaged with bird and we were hoping he just didn't put enough slugs in. He did. That was our only DQ. Could have 10.6'd someone, but took the higher road. If the RO's tell you they are not going to call hits, don't stand there and argue about it and call them F&ckers.. Especially after they have been continuously sand blasted for 3 days..

This may be a bit of thread drift, but did the ROs not call hits for all the shooters?

[ziebart]

Some stages called hits on self indicating targets and others did not.

[ac4wordplay]

ETA: Look at stage 12 for some time shifts. I was 3rd tac, and lost just under 21 match points for being 7.38 seconds slower than Daniel. That stage had several ways to shoot it with some being much faster than others if executed properly. Unfortunately if executed poorly they could get you DQd for slugs on sub min distance steel knock downs. I went with the safer plan to have 4 bird loaded with 5 slugs on top. It required extra loading, but reduced the risk of failure. Daniel bet on his skill and won. Others not so much.

Daniel was a freak on that stage. I was running him and he made up almost all of that time on the pistol. There were some fine pistol shooters for sure in that match, but he shot it with reckless abandon. He also went 1-1 on the slugs and didn't slow down for the paper. IIRC the closest 2nd fastest time was 4 seconds behind. We only had one person DQ and he did some strange thing that nobody else probably even thought about. He shot the first 3 slugs, than two bird, than ran to the front and shot 3 more slugs, came back to the plates on the right. We saw one slug paper engaged with bird and we were hoping he just didn't put enough slugs in. He did. That was our only DQ. Could have 10.6'd someone, but took the higher road. If the RO's tell you they are not going to call hits, don't stand there and argue about it and call them F&ckers.. Especially after they have been continuously sand blasted for 3 days..

"Could have 10.6'd someone..."

Interesting. What was the issue?