Cumulative Time vs. Stage Points

[kurtm]

Heretic, heretic, burn him, burn him!!!

Edited October 13, 2015 by kurtm

[Stlhead]

I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe.

[Doug H.]

I will see your Martin Luther and raise you a Monty Python:

She turned me into a newt.....well I got better.

But seriously, if you enter a match and the scoring system is posted there can be no complaint that the match was scored as advertized. Could someone else have won if the scoring were different, of course. I have seen the OP lose and win the same match depending on how the scores were calculated. The difference was less than 1 match point as I remember and when the match was scored as advertised he came out on top. I know, I made the call. As for TT vs 100 points per stage it makes little difference to me because I'm not that good.

Doug

[NMBOpen]

Points don't have to be 100 for every stage. Think USPSA pistol, where available stage points = 5 x round count, 160 for 32, 40 for 8. There was a thread earlier this year about how to determine a point value for a 3-gun stage.

[openclassterror]

At the local match level, our range has only two bays with significant distance. So, when we have a match, there are typically several burner short course stages, and one or two with long range. Hence, all the cool/ difficult long range stuff is combined into a single stage. Now this plays to my advantage, because I am an accomplished rifle shooter, and I lose ground on the "run around and blaze with a pistol at 10 yds and rifle at 30" stages because I am fat and broken. So when we used to do total time scoring at the club level, I usually ran away with the match every month. Here is how it worked:

Stage 1: long range

Long range stage has a plate rack at 200, flashers at 275 and 350. Total of 8 long targets on a single stage. Assorted other rifle, shotgun and pistol stuff. Average stage time, say 140 sec. I go one for one on the 8 targets in 11 sec. Second place averages two shots per target, and takes 26 seconds. Otherwise we are within 2 or 3 seconds. My time=98 sec, second place 111 sec.

Total Time: 98 to 111

Points: 100 to 88.2

Stage 2: classifier

Lets say there is little movement, so his foot speed advantage is negated, but he is a little faster with the pistol. I shoot a decent 14.2 second time, he shoots a quick 12.6

Total time: 98+14.2= 112.2 for me, 111+12.6= 123.6 for him

Points: 100 to 88.7 his advantage. Total points 188.2 for him, 188.7 for me.

At this juncture, points has us in a dead heat, and the trophy is up for grabs on the third stage. BUT, in total time I still have more than an 11 second lead going into the final stage. Even though I was about 12% faster on my good stage, and he was about the same faster on his. So, for argument, let's say that he is a GM with the pistol, and I am a B class shooter, and the classifier turns out a little different. Say I shoot my 14.2, and he blazes it in 8 seconds. He is DEFINITELY a better shooter, since I only beat him by a small margin on the long stage, but he has barely half my time on the classifier. Unfortunately for him, he only regained 6 seconds back of my 13 second lead, because the course is so short. So, due to our range layout restrictions, essentially the guy who wins long range wins the match, even if he is only mediocre in ALL OTHER DISCIPLINES. So, this is a valid scenario where total time is useless, and that is why our local club abandoned it.

Having said all that, I go to matches that fit my travel/ vacation/ budget, regardless of how they are scored. The scoring methods simply weight the values of given shooting disciplines differently. So, if you are getting your a$$ kicked with one type of scoring system and not the other, you simply need to improve your game in the area that scores the weakest in that system. Simple as that.

[Stlhead]

There will be a tie in to this thread, but at the end.

Doug, I won a giant beer mug at your match a few years ago, I think it was the first year it was held in Bend, but I am not certain. I wanted to thank you again for giving out the most useful trophies in our sport. Plaques and trophies are cool, and fill the shelves and walls of the den, but a giant beer mug is infinitely more useful. That was the year that I badgered you into offering true heavy metal. 308 irons, open sights, 10 round .45, and 12ga pump. There where not very many of us in the division, I don't remember how many but certainly not more than 5. I was doing pretty well until on a rifle pistol stage the rear sight drum on my rifle came loose and my rear sight started flopping around. Fortunately the targets where pretty close so I made do and finished with the rifle took a little time, but nothing too bad. Pulled my pistol and the second shot on the first target PHEW. Squib. 1 fail to neutralize and the entire rest of the targets failure to engage. I figured I would finish the rest of the match for fun, I was there to shoot and there where still stages to shoot, in fact it was a great match. Stage points let me still win the beer mug. Did I deserve it no, but the rules are the rules and I won the beer mug.

Fast forward to this summer, Montana Multigun. The best 4 stage 1 day match that I know of. Every stage is a beast with 3 guns and a ton of shooting and movement. Great friends to shoot with and plenty of good shooters. My first two stages are pretty good for me, I am having fun, shooting well, I think i was even penalty free. Then the third stage, I am kicking it's ass, the plan is solid, the rifle is a hammer, no extra shots with the shotgun, (I did miss a flyer but hell it happens), third round from my pistol made it nearly out of the muzzle, not quite, but nearly. I think I earned over 300 seconds in penalties in one stage, about the same time I had spent shooting the preceding 2 stages. The next stage I goofed off a little, shot all the rifle off hand standing, all the pistol strong or weak hand, skipped between bays on the clock while humming the carnival / circus song from the siaga ironman video that Tuttle did a few years ago. Total time match.

The tie in to the thread is simple. It does not matter if the match is total time or stage points if you have a keg in your reloading room. I could not imagine loading the amount of ammo that the guys that I shoot with and I use without drinking. I will take the squib every few years. I still thank Doug for the giant beer mug. If you shoot with good people, and drink enough afterwards, you don't care how the score is kept. It really does not matter.

[DocMedic]

I shoot several matches a year that use cumulative time, and from my own experience and opinion, "Cumulative Time" is the most brutally honest scoring system there is. A 10 sec missed flying bird is worth 10 secs of your total match time regardless of where you missed. In stage% a 10 sec penalty in a 20 sec stage is 50% of the stage points (pending winner), but a 10 sec penalty on a 100 sec stage is only worth 10% (pending winner). Even USPSA hit-factor can soften the blow of penalties depending if its Comstock vs Virginia count and how many points you actually scored.

When I shoot Cumulative time matches I tend to shoot the match more conservatively. As where in Stage% points, depending on stage length I'll chance going faster and accept possible penalties.

Shooting Cumulative time matches have actually help me understand myself better as a shooter, it forces me to stay consistent and push the skills i develop in practice to hone for a match, instead of "hey watch this" mentality.

Edited October 13, 2015 by DocMedic

[Benelli Chick]

I shoot several matches a year that use cumulative time, and from my own experience and opinion, "Cumulative Time" is the most brutally honest scoring system there is. A 10 sec missed flying bird is worth 10 secs of your total match time regardless of where you missed. In stage% a 10 sec penalty in a 20 sec stage is 50% of the stage points (pending winner), but a 10 sec penalty on a 100 sec stage is only worth 10% (pending winner). Even USPSA hit-factor can soften the blow of penalties depending if its Comstock vs Virginia count and how many points you actually scored.

When I shoot Cumulative time matches I tend to shoot the match more conservatively. As where in Stage% points, depending on stage length I'll chance going faster and accept possible penalties.

Shooting Cumulative time matches have actually help me understand myself better as a shooter, it forces me to stay consistent and push the skills i develop in practice to hone for a match, instead of "hey watch this" mentality.

I admire the plan. However, when I hear about 3GN stages (where they are cumulative), you can't win if you shoot conservative...a half a second or even a tenth of a second can mean the difference between..."bye-bye" and continuing on. I think the big money on that makes people go for broke and that's why (in my opinion) there are more DQ's and such, because people are pushing it!

I do think that at a regular cumulative match, shooting a little conservatively, but consistent, might turn out okay...but the same is true for points. Solid 85% on all stages ends up in the top 5 almost every time!

JMO

[DocMedic]

I shoot several matches a year that use cumulative time, and from my own experience and opinion, "Cumulative Time" is the most brutally honest scoring system there is. A 10 sec missed flying bird is worth 10 secs of your total match time regardless of where you missed. In stage% a 10 sec penalty in a 20 sec stage is 50% of the stage points (pending winner), but a 10 sec penalty on a 100 sec stage is only worth 10% (pending winner). Even USPSA hit-factor can soften the blow of penalties depending if its Comstock vs Virginia count and how many points you actually scored.

When I shoot Cumulative time matches I tend to shoot the match more conservatively. As where in Stage% points, depending on stage length I'll chance going faster and accept possible penalties.

Shooting Cumulative time matches have actually help me understand myself better as a shooter, it forces me to stay consistent and push the skills i develop in practice to hone for a match, instead of "hey watch this" mentality.

I admire the plan. However, when I hear about 3GN stages (where they are cumulative), you can't win if you shoot conservative...a half a second or even a tenth of a second can mean the difference between..."bye-bye" and continuing on. I think the big money on that makes people go for broke and that's why (in my opinion) there are more DQ's and such, because people are pushing it!

I do think that at a regular cumulative match, shooting a little conservatively, but consistent, might turn out okay...but the same is true for points. Solid 85% on all stages ends up in the top 5 almost every time!

JMO

Thats actually true, I haven't shot any 3GN style match due to proxy, from what I see they tend to be very crash and burn stages due to the shortness of the overall stage.. but then again it makes for good TV

Edited October 13, 2015 by DocMedic

[MarkCO]

Short stages with similar times, cumulative time is fine...Rimfire Challenge, Steel Challenge, 3GN.

When you get to more complex stages, or longer stages mixed with shorter stages, those that test a larger number of skills, the total time tends to fall apart.

[mpeltier]

I have shot many matches over the years, Hit factor, Cumulative time and points. Never chose a match due to the scoring system. Everybody plays by the same rules. Many other more important considerations (In my opinion). Looking over my finishes of different scoring methods I seldom finished in a position that was significantly different because of the scoring system (and I do finish closer to the front than back of the pack). Shoot straight, shoot fast, and do it with good equipment.....the rest will sort itself out. Theres always the "What-If" perception after the match. Its easy to perceive that if your third and only a few points off the leader you could believe the scoring method was your downfall....but was it really? No matter the scoring system your finish is due to the guys above you either shooting faster, straighter or with better sorted out equipment (or a combination there of) based on the scoring system and ruleset used. At the top it can be so close that a different scoring method could have resulted in a different winner, but so could a better performance by those that didn't win.

[DaveG]

I just hope I finish, I shoot for fun, At the 3GN nationals there were over 40 DQ's(I wasn't one of them) so I feel I did OK..

[Stlhead]

As supposed earlier in this thread could there be a possible link between total time or stage points and DQ rate?

[Jim Norman]

Straight time plus makes for one long race. Don't even bother to publish the stage results, they don't matter! The match is simply the entire event, period, end of story. You screw up one stage, especially a long stage, you have one death jam, you can probably save the cost of the rest of your ammo as you aren't in it any longer, not if you were aiming for the top.

Points is a tournament. 10 stages? 10 matches, you add up how you did in each and the most points wins.

In points you could arguably still screw up a stage (match) and still finish well.

We recently ran a small club 3Gun, Point plus the top 4 were DM, VG, NL, JN Changed ti to straight time and the results were VG, DM, JN, NL.

Interesting, I didn't check the rest to see how many others flipped or moved appreciably. Which is better? I think that as has been stated, if all your stages are going to wind up very close in total time straight time is fine, if you have one or two LONG stages that someone can blow away the crowd on, then points make more sense. A couple really long stages and someone saves 20-40 seconds on them can really skew things. THey could even screw up royally on a couple other stages and still win.

A near perfect example is sort of USPSA where you have 5 stages that area ll in the 160 point range and one or two really short fast stages like say and El Prez. You can go hero or zero on El Prez and still win if you do well enough on the remaining stages. I know, I've done it several times, I need to have 90% + classifiers so it is let it all hang out, as often as not, I crash and burn at that level, but the rest of the match I grab 1,2, or 3 on a stage and win the division.

So, will i shoot a time plus or a Time Plus points match, Yup! Of course, I just try to keep in mind what matters on what COF and where my weaknesses and not so weaknesses are and have fun.

[CJW]

This, ever so loving much. I there ANY racing series, in any bloody sport, where cumulative time applies over multiple events? Because we sure shoot multiple individually scored heats in our type of racing?

Olympic bobsled.

This does not mean I endorse Olympic bobsled as a model for 3-Gun scoring. (It is basically Steel Challenge scoring without dropping the lowest "heat" from the score.)

[Moltke]

I like both methods but I see some issues with stage points because we use it -

1) penalties don't count equally from stage to stage

2) passive benefit to people who have meltdowns (gun or brain)

3) weighting stages with a point value is subjective

Here's an idea on how to solve #3 and remove the subjectivity from weighting stages -

If someone crushes a tactical bay course of fire in 20.55 seconds and sets the curve for a match, then they get 20.55 match points and everyone who shoots slower gets a % of their match points. Then on a natural terrain stage with long range, some pro shoots it in 66.75 sec and they'd get 66.75 match points, and everyone who shoots slower gets a % of their points. Then whoever has the most match points at the end of the match wins.

Pretty damn simple as the leader sets the curve and it directly reflects the amount of shooting / moving / loading / etc, involved.

[RiggerJJ]

Ummm, I think what you are saying is the same as cumlative time...

[Moltke]

Well, no. Let's take that bay course of fire for example -

Some pro sets the curve at 20.55 sec, then regular me comes along and shoots the same course in 41.10 sec. The pro gets 100% of the match points which would be 20.55 points (curve set by the leader), and I would get 50% which would be 10.275 points (half of their match points). All it is doing is weighting courses based on the high score instead of a subjective number, and at the end of the match the person with most points wins like stage points already does.

If it was cumulative time then the pro would shoot 20.55 sec and that would be their score, mine would be 41.10 sec, and lowest score wins like time plus does now.

[RiggerJJ]

Reverse cumulative then...

I get what you mean thou.

[Moltke]

By the way, this discussion is hilarious.

Socialism

Comrade Kelley

Robin Hood

All in one thread, what a gem!!

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Why would I not dog pile onto this mess of a thread that shows up every 3-6 months?

So far, I agree with Kurt here on an aspect.....shoot the matches you like, and if the scoring is a big issue to you, make that a reason you do or don't shoot that particular match if you wish.

I try to build my schedule out as much in advance as possible, and there is EVERY match in the country on the "maybe" list as I begin to line my schedule out, schedule, and scratch off, matches. Factors like: whos running the match, style of the match, rifle v shotgun v pistol heavy match, location of the match, how close the match is to hotels/food, drive vs fly, how the prize table is handled (not how much is on the prize table)..... these are all factors I consider in choosing matches I want to attend.

Scoring system is a secondary issue for me. I'm not going to rule in, or rule out, a match based on the scoring system alone. It's a bigger issue to others, and I do know that some currently rule out matches based on the scoring used.

SO....here is what I have realized....

100pt stages...

-Doing well on short burner stages bumps you up big

-Doing well on long range and big time stages may bump you up a little

-Targets are not worth the same from stage to stage, know where you need to go fast, and where to slow down and make it count

-The value of a penalty or pain from a 10 second malfunction will vary heavily depending on the stage it occurs on

-Winning a big specialty stage (all shotgun) can be a massive bump if you can screw the curve up.

Total Time....

-Doing well on a short stage can help you by a couple of seconds

-Doing well on long stages or specialty stage (all shotgun) can separate you by a good margin

-targets are usually worth about the same amount, penalties will vary based on type of target and distance

-a 10 second malfunction is the same regardless of stage

-any penalty is the same worth the same regardless of stage

SO.....here is how i deal with the issue.

1: I shoot matches that I consider "good matches." My criteria is usually based around the match being inventive, challenging, and fun. I tend to watch some match video, take advice from others, rely on my previous experiences,....

2: I shoot matches I consider "fair".... If there legitimately comes something into question about how RO calls are handled, match integrity, shooter favoritism, or anything else....I'm out.

3: I change my strategy on how I shoot stages based on the type of match I'm planning to shoot.....see below.

Strategy....for me...

100pt stages

-Put emphasis on the short stages, you can't stumble here and need fast times. Wins here are huge.

-Don't give it away on long stages, but you don't have to burn it down. Wins are bragging rights, just don't give away the farm.

-Big all shotgun stage- for me, this can be a huge boost to my match while being a failure point to others. Bragging rights + lots of points.

Total Time

-Short stages- find the same plan as a points stage, shoot more conservatively and try not to give up too much.

-Long stages- Put an emphasis here, going one for one on long range will pay off big.

-Big all shotgun stage- try to be within a 5-15 seconds of the top guy, don't need to win it, but don't lose it. A win is bragging rights.

Now.....here is where my standpoint is originating from, because most of you have been at this longer than me.

-started shooting mid-2012....I still consider myself relatively new to the sport in comparison.

-five top five finishes this year in tacops(Generation III Gun, Missouri 3-Gun, Rockcastle ProAm, Fallen Brethren, Arkansas Section Multigun)......all at matches using stage points

-my total time match finishes were: 3GN Regionals- 18th, 18th, 11th, 19th

-In 2016, I have both stage points and total time matches on the schedule, and am still building my schedule.......because I like pulling a trigger, a LOT!

[Jeff F]

I would have to say I like time plus penalty over a point based scoring. Like most said, we all bring gear that should work, if it runs and you shoot well you can win. Stuff breaks and other factors that are beyond our control.

I say let the clock run!

[Vespid_Wasp]

3) weighting stages with a point value is subjective

Here's an idea on how to solve #3 and remove the subjectivity from weighting stages -

If someone crushes a tactical bay course of fire in 20.55 seconds and sets the curve for a match, then they get 20.55 match points and everyone who shoots slower gets a % of their match points. Then on a natural terrain stage with long range, some pro shoots it in 66.75 sec and they'd get 66.75 match points, and everyone who shoots slower gets a % of their points. Then whoever has the most match points at the end of the match wins.

Pretty damn simple as the leader sets the curve and it directly reflects the amount of shooting / moving / loading / etc, involved.

That's a pretty good idea.

[ziebart]

Molke,

I like your solution to problem #3. The problem is when people want to know how well they are doing throughout the match. One score at the end of the match could drastically change the standings. This secondary problem may not be that big of an issue as points matches still require that 100% score.

[HCH]

I like points, but instead of each stage being worth 100 points, I think stages should be scored according to the required number of rounds. For instance: in a USPSA match, a 100 point stage requires twenty rounds, and a 160 point stage requires 32 rounds. Basically, I think the stage should be worth the number of required rounds times five points per required round.