Member Proposed Rule Changes is now open!

[BillR1]

This is a bit off topic..

When reading the USPSA subforum, the negativity seems to be from their own active members. I can respect that.

When reading the IDPA subforum, much of the negativity comes from former IDPA members and USPSA members. I find this a bit odd.

Why is it that people admit to having left IDPA still feel the need to come back and vent about how much they disliked the sport? Maybe I overlooked all the posts from IDPA members on the USPSA subforum recruiting disgruntled members. But that seems to be the norm here on the IDPA subforum.

Former customers are the best way to gauge why your product needs improvement. Why does that customer not come to buy your product any more. What can be done to get hat customer back, if there is anything that can be done. Companies spend millions of dollars figuring out how to best retain and get back former customers.

I can guarantee the best way to gain customers and get back former ones is to NOT say "oh you don't shop here any more, we don't care what you think".

Oh, we all KNOW what the "former customers" think...because they come on here and tell us again...and again...and again.......and then some more.

I see quite a few shortcomings and things I don't care for with the other game, but somehow I'm able to resist getting on those forums and whining constantly about needed changes and why I'll never join. I simply contribute (money, time, energy, etc.) to the games and the forums that I like and agree with. I realize that's a highly unusual concept, but it's worked well for me so far.

[motosapiens]

Oh, we all KNOW what the "former customers" think...because they come on here and tell us again...and again...and again.......and then some more.

I see quite a few shortcomings and things I don't care for with the other game, but somehow I'm able to resist getting on those forums and whining constantly about needed changes and why I'll never join.

See, that's the difference. You'll 'never join'. Some of us actually would shoot some IDPA matches with just a small tweak or two.

My wife doesn't like constructive criticism either tho. All she hears is "you're fat".

[BillR1]

Oh, we all KNOW what the "former customers" think...because they come on here and tell us again...and again...and again.......and then some more.

I see quite a few shortcomings and things I don't care for with the other game, but somehow I'm able to resist getting on those forums and whining constantly about needed changes and why I'll never join.

My wife doesn't like constructive criticism either tho. All she hears is "you're fat".

Outstanding analogy! If your comments to your wife were daily (or hourly!), at what point would they cease to be "constructive" and cross the line to nagging/whining/bellyaching? Just a thought...

[Rob Tompkins]

5) The dust cover rule for ESP. I can shoot a factory SP-01 in SPP and the only reason it would be legal in ESP is because it is SPP legal. If I do one thing to the gun, no matter how minor that would make it illegal for SPP I am now illegal for ESP as well. (even though ESP is supposed to be allowed more modifications??)

Mike,

If the mods made are ESP legal, then you are OK to shoot in ESP. depending on the mods, you may still be able to shoot SSP if you're able to revent back to stock form.

Magwells, would be a prime example of this. While illegal in SSP, they are perfectly legal in ESP. If you removed the magwell, you would again be legal for both SSP and ESP.

The rule is:

8.2.2.1.7. All firearms legal in SSP are legal for use in ESP. This provision may be used for firearms that violate an ESP rule (for example, a firearm with a steel dust cover or rail over 3.25") to still be used in ESP, provided the firearm meets all SSP requirements.

To use the SP-01 in ESP it must still be SSP legal, if modifed to not be SSP legal (i.e., mag well) you can not use it in ESP.

[elguapo]

Why such a hard on against full length dust covers? Because not USPSA?

Edited October 16, 2014 by elguapo

[Rob Tompkins]

Why such a hard on against full length dust covers? Because not USPSA?

Me? I could not care one bit less if you have a full length dust cover or not but the rule is clear, you can have it in SSP but not in ESP unless its a fully SSP legal gun.

IDPA HQ? Not a clue.

[motosapiens]

Why such a hard on against full length dust covers? Because not USPSA?

They'll get you killed in the streets.

[elguapo]

Why such a hard on against full length dust covers? Because not USPSA?

They'll get you killed in the streets.

Well....yeah. WTH was I thinking?

[Steve RA]

These topics are fun to read as most of the content is people arguing with each other instead of a discussion of specific rules !!!

[mikeinctown]

5) The dust cover rule for ESP. I can shoot a factory SP-01 in SPP and the only reason it would be legal in ESP is because it is SPP legal. If I do one thing to the gun, no matter how minor that would make it illegal for SPP I am now illegal for ESP as well. (even though ESP is supposed to be allowed more modifications??)

Mike,

If the mods made are ESP legal, then you are OK to shoot in ESP. depending on the mods, you may still be able to shoot SSP if you're able to revent back to stock form.

Magwells, would be a prime example of this. While illegal in SSP, they are perfectly legal in ESP. If you removed the magwell, you would again be legal for both SSP and ESP.

The rule is:

8.2.2.1.7. All firearms legal in SSP are legal for use in ESP. This provision may be used for firearms that violate an ESP rule (for example, a firearm with a steel dust cover or rail over 3.25") to still be used in ESP, provided the firearm meets all SSP requirements.

To use the SP-01 in ESP it must still be SSP legal, if modifed to not be SSP legal (i.e., mag well) you can not use it in ESP.

That is how I was reading it. If you keep it legal for SSP then you can use it in ESP as long as you keep it SSP legal. But if you actually change anything to make suitable for ESP competition based on allowable additions then it suddenly becomes ESP AND SSP illegal. Makes ZERO sense.

The way the rule should be written IMHO is that any poduction gun (their definition is fine, with the exception of what a custom shop is) shall be legal in SSP. Any gun legal in SSP shall automatically be considered legal in ESP and may also be modified as follows... That makes it very clear as to what is allowed and offers a starting point.

[SonOfSpartans]

Lots of assumptions are made and logical fallacies are committed when debating on line. That said, I am not data, I am but one point.

I am a new member of IDPA (for now). I joined a year ago when I started competing in the shooting sports as a mature adult. I have a smart phone and can dual screen and tab browse and navigate any multitude of forums. I did not come from the "old" IDPA so I have ALWAYS been loading flat footed. I also shoot USPSA limited, 3Gun, 2Gun, Shotgun only matches, Steel Challenge as well as DMR. (Catching up for lost years)

So here is my two cents. I have not been shooting IDPA as much recently. The reason for me is clear. Too much restriction. When a stage can really only be executed in a very narrow manner or only one way, I find that restrictive. The standing reloads DO bug me on many stages and the reason given is why. So I must stand still and remain behind cover. I will get called while shooting if my toes stick out past a wall, but as long as I stand all flat footed I can leave my head around the corner looking at the targets while I reload an empty gun!?!?!?! The rules for tactics sake are dated and inconsistent so give it a rest. Some of the gun restrictions are a little over the top too.

I am not going to get into it except to say this. Participation has dropped at our local matches. My GF got frustrated with all the procedural stuff and has started trying USPSA. She is liking it better. I did not feel inclined to take my time to interact with the organization and give feedback. Why? Because of how they implemented their new rules and changes and the message sent to those unhappy. I have another way of voting.........with my wallet and time. I am due to renew now. To shoot these matches I need to give the parent organization more money. I am making that value judgment now and I am inclined to keep that $40 and do other things with it.

So I cannot be called an old guy that does not handle technology, nor can I be called a USPSA shooter or put in ANY real category other than customer and shooter. There are lots of things to do in my area. I do not have to engage in changing the place I purchase from. I have lots of "vendors" to chose from. That is easier.

[logiztix]

Brooke, you're having an argument all by yourself. I'll get off your lawn now.

[Mike21STI]

I have a feeling that after the response to the last input period "we hear you but you are wrong we are right" many just didn't bother.

This

[Glock3422]

When reading the IDPA subforum, much of the negativity comes from former IDPA members and USPSA members. I find this a bit odd.

Why is it that people admit to having left IDPA still feel the need to come back and vent about how much they disliked the sport? Maybe I overlooked all the posts from IDPA members on the USPSA subforum recruiting disgruntled members. But that seems to be the norm here on the IDPA subforum.

I haven't been an IDPA member since September 2012. I wanted to see what the Tiger Teams would actually do before spending any more money on IDPA.

From my personal interactions with Joyce, et al, I was convinced that things were going to get weird. Well, they did.

I was a CSO, a member since 2002, and enjoyed shooting a minimum of two matches a month and four or five sanctioned matches a year.

After the new rules, I did not renew, no longer SO, but I still shoot two matches a month. I find the rules in many areas to be, dumb and without rational explanation.

There is a rule against knee pads, which I really need after years of abuse and landing on too many pieces of brass and blue stone.

There is a rule against stiffeners in concealment, because it is apparently too effective and real worldy.

There is a rule against the most effective flashlight I have ever seen and purchased specifically to shoot with.

There is a rule against the moving reload, which completely negates any skill one might possess at performing a tac load.

The sport I started shooting has been dumbed down to avoid embarressing the multitude of new MM and SS, which are not overcoming the number of experienced shooters who have chosen to not renew, but rather do something else. Oh, or just not pay Berryville.

After "officially" suspending training any new SOs, IDPA, generally, does not have enough experienced SOs to run a major match. Tribal rules are on the rise. The new rules have destroyed what ever institutional knowledge there was.

The strict equipment rules have been bent and revised too many times at this stage to trust the motivations of those writing the rules. Big sponsor, no problem, that looks good. Not a sponsor, you can't use that, next week.

By the time this is over, you will probably be able to buy IDPA for a little over the annual dues take. Good luck finding out what that might be, but it is a lot less than it used to be. The only reason to stop issuing member numbers sequentially, is to conceal the number of members.

In a nutshell, the new rules have created a game that isn't worth my money or the time I invested to help build and staff matches.

Outlaw 3-Gun baby!

[GOF]

I was talking to a couple of retired Air Force pilots at a recent IDPA match I shot, and one mentioned that it is a bad idea to fly above 10,000 feet without wearing an oxygen mask. It seems that lack of oxygen does some funny things to the brain and repeat occurances can be cumulative in the long run. Don't know how that applies here, but I thought that bit of wisdom was worth passing on to any new pilots out there who enjoy shooting action pistol matches, like IDPA.

[manderson2228]

I have a feeling that after the response to the last input period "we hear you but you are wrong we are right" many just didn't bother.

This is why I didn't waste my time. I just bought a USPSA membership and bought more magazines carriers. Problem solved.

[Jim Watson]

You might want to follow the GADPA soap opera.

I wonder if "Georgia Rules" might be the solution.

[M1911]

You might want to follow the GADPA soap opera.

I wonder if "Georgia Rules" might be the solution.

Do you have any insight into why GADPA left?

[Brooke]

Yes, their BOD was tired and probably frustrated by not getting much local help in setting up and running a large match. They made some mistakes and in their frustration neglected to take the corrective actions suggested because some shooters were sure to complain loudly. The BOD seemed to ignore the fact that their shooters actually turned them in or maybe that frustrated them even more.....Damned if you do or don't!

They made a big mistake in leaving IDPA and hopefully they or their members will rethink that situation and return shortly. Their loss is a hit to IDPA, but it is also a hit to the local shooters. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and both IDPA and GADPA will get together again.

[elguapo]

They made a big mistake in leaving IDPA

That remains to be seen, doesn't it.

[elguapo]

I have a feeling that after the response to the last input period "we hear you but you are wrong we are right" many just didn't bother.

This is why I didn't waste my time. I just bought a USPSA membership and bought more magazines carriers. Problem solved.

Sounds like me

[S-Hurt]

When reading the IDPA subforum, much of the negativity comes from former IDPA members and USPSA members. I find this a bit odd.

Why is it that people admit to having left IDPA still feel the need to come back and vent about how much they disliked the sport? Maybe I overlooked all the posts from IDPA members on the USPSA subforum recruiting disgruntled members. But that seems to be the norm here on the IDPA subforum.

I haven't been an IDPA member since September 2012. I wanted to see what the Tiger Teams would actually do before spending any more money on IDPA.

From my personal interactions with Joyce, et al, I was convinced that things were going to get weird. Well, they did.

I was a CSO, a member since 2002, and enjoyed shooting a minimum of two matches a month and four or five sanctioned matches a year.

After the new rules, I did not renew, no longer SO, but I still shoot two matches a month. I find the rules in many areas to be, dumb and without rational explanation.

There is a rule against knee pads, which I really need after years of abuse and landing on too many pieces of brass and blue stone.

There is a rule against stiffeners in concealment, because it is apparently too effective and real worldy.

There is a rule against the most effective flashlight I have ever seen and purchased specifically to shoot with.

There is a rule against the moving reload, which completely negates any skill one might possess at performing a tac load.

The sport I started shooting has been dumbed down to avoid embarressing the multitude of new MM and SS, which are not overcoming the number of experienced shooters who have chosen to not renew, but rather do something else. Oh, or just not pay Berryville.

After "officially" suspending training any new SOs, IDPA, generally, does not have enough experienced SOs to run a major match. Tribal rules are on the rise. The new rules have destroyed what ever institutional knowledge there was.

The strict equipment rules have been bent and revised too many times at this stage to trust the motivations of those writing the rules. Big sponsor, no problem, that looks good. Not a sponsor, you can't use that, next week.

By the time this is over, you will probably be able to buy IDPA for a little over the annual dues take. Good luck finding out what that might be, but it is a lot less than it used to be. The only reason to stop issuing member numbers sequentially, is to conceal the number of members.

In a nutshell, the new rules have created a game that isn't worth my money or the time I invested to help build and staff matches.

Outlaw 3-Gun baby!

+ 1 ...... good post. We could be brothers!

[GOF]

More than a few shooters, and an increasing number of clubs feel the same way. And, it doesn't bode well for IDPA. Their business plan depends upon clubs generating and attracting paying members ... through the club's volunteer work... to create the $40 annual members that the for-profit IDPA depends upon to make a profit. The clubs do pay a nominal annual fee, but when you multiply that fee by the number of clubs, it wouldn't pay IDPA's electric bill.

New members, and renewing members, are what keeps IDPA in business and shows a profit. Advertising in the Tactical Journal does little more than help offset printing & mailing costs. Sponsorship dollars do little more than help defray the expenses to put on a IDPA-generated sanctioned match (Nationals, World, etc.).

To survive, IDPA needs as many $40 a year members as they can get. And, those members are generated by the volunteers at the clubs - who not only pay an annual fee to be a club, but the 'volunteers' also have to pay their annual membership. Those are the people who welcome new members, teach them the game, coach them along, and convince them to send their $40 yearly to Berryville.

When the clubs say "The hell with it, we're outa here"... where does IDPA get those $40 annual checks From? IDPA HQ does nothing to generate them. It is all on the local clubs. When the clubs leave... as a number have, and will... where does that leave IDPA's business plan?

IDPA HQ seems to have done its best to not only alienate long time shooters (and a lot of veteran SOs who knew how to deal with a new shooters in a way that would convert them to dues paying IDPA members) but to alienate the clubs that are IDPA's life blood. The Tiger Team/NRB was a start. RangeLog was another, the GADPA situation was just another.

I had a conversation with a few MDs at a recent match. Someone opined that IDPA had shot itself in the foot. Several of them disagreed. They said "They had shot themselves in the head."

Time will tell. But all is not happy in IDPA-ville.... and it's all coming from Berryville. If you fly above 10,000 feet, it's wise to wear an oxygen mask.

Edited October 31, 2014 by GOF

[M1911]

They made a big mistake in leaving IDPA

Time will tell. I don't think GADPA made this decision quickly or lightly. From their statement, it sounds as though the issues at the GA State Match were the straw that broke camel's back, but that their problems with HQ started long before this match.

[MWP]

Anyone else just get that email from HQ?

Please tell me there is a typo, third paragraph, third sentence. Should the word "not" be there?