Member Proposed Rule Changes is now open!

[Jim Watson]

It should not say not, but they are in Arkansas and you know the definition of the word not is not something you can take for granted.

[GOF]

I'm sure that there's more typos spread around. One that immediately caught my eye is that they're going to give us members " a peak at the new rules".

Ahh... the dangers of autocorrect. The second email missed that obvious error, but at least their heads are coming around to a bit more realistic take on the NRB. I wonder if those missing membership checks had anything to do with their "new & less dictatorial" attitude.

Edited November 4, 2014 by GOF

[zhunter]

First let me say that I'm a USPSA shooter. I have vowed to never shoot with a vest. But I have read this entire thread. Why? Slide mounted optics, that why!

I'm a black and white guy, no gray area. I'm not sure I could allow myself to be subjected to subjectively called penalties. But I'm trying to be open minded ONLY because I'm interested in the possible optics division. It seems that some good things (as in competition minded) might be in the works. I have no interest in make believe scenarios, I'm only going to show up to compete and have fun. If the "real world" crap can be eliminated, moving reloads become legal, AND I can mount an optic on my slide I'll shoot a few matches and see how it goes. But the first sign of inconsistent penalty calling would end it for me.

I'll be watching

[Glock3422]

Joyce to Robert - "Robert, send out an email and tell everyone you were wrong with the rule changes."

[RePete]

As I said in the comment box on the vote for CCW or LOP, lets get the rulebook right BEFORE we hatch 2 new divisions.

[M1911]

Anyone else just get that email from HQ?

Please tell me there is a typo, third paragraph, third sentence. Should the word "not" be there?

It's a typo. You should have received a followup e-mail that fixed that.

[Rob Tompkins]

First let me say that I'm a USPSA shooter. I have vowed to never shoot with a vest. But I have read this entire thread. Why? Slide mounted optics, that why!

I'm a black and white guy, no gray area. I'm not sure I could allow myself to be subjected to subjectively called penalties. But I'm trying to be open minded ONLY because I'm interested in the possible optics division. It seems that some good things (as in competition minded) might be in the works. I have no interest in make believe scenarios, I'm only going to show up to compete and have fun. If the "real world" crap can be eliminated, moving reloads become legal, AND I can mount an optic on my slide I'll shoot a few matches and see how it goes. But the first sign of inconsistent penalty calling would end it for me.

I'll be watching

The only way the LOP Division will happen is if the gun mounted laser crowd out votes the small carry gun crowd. I think its only a very small fraction of shooters care about a slide mounted gun optic becase facory options are limited and very expensive as compared to small carry gun.

[zhunter]

First let me say that I'm a USPSA shooter. I have vowed to never shoot with a vest. But I have read this entire thread. Why? Slide mounted optics, that why!

I'm a black and white guy, no gray area. I'm not sure I could allow myself to be subjected to subjectively called penalties. But I'm trying to be open minded ONLY because I'm interested in the possible optics division. It seems that some good things (as in competition minded) might be in the works. I have no interest in make believe scenarios, I'm only going to show up to compete and have fun. If the "real world" crap can be eliminated, moving reloads become legal, AND I can mount an optic on my slide I'll shoot a few matches and see how it goes. But the first sign of inconsistent penalty calling would end it for me.

I'll be watching

The only way the LOP Division will happen is if the gun mounted laser crowd out votes the small carry gun crowd. I think its only a very small fraction of shooters care about a slide mounted gun optic becase facory options are limited and very expensive as compared to small carry gun.

I'll be watching. If they want my $40, it's ONLY because of LOP that I'd shoot IDPA. As you put it, I'm sure the BUG will win out

[BillR1]

I'll be watching. If they want my $40, it's ONLY because of LOP that I'd shoot IDPA. As you put it, I'm sure the BUG will win out

As it should! People shooting optics and lasers are (right now) such a tiny percentage of the shooter population. The Compact pistol division seems to fit the "defensive pistol" definition much better.

[GOF]

Optical sights on carry guns are not common. But to think that laser sights are also scarce is to be VERY ill-informed. Handgun laser sights, like the Crimson Trace and LaserMax models, are common and growing in popularity on concealed carry handguns. They are even offered by several makers on their factory concealed carry handguns!

Their drawback to competitive use is that their visibility is limited to less than 5 yards under most lighting conditions found on outdoor ranges. But, they are awesome! on indoor ranges and I have shot "IDPA-like" matches on indoor ranges where they did have a laser division. But, it is something that a "concealed carry/self defense-oriented sport" should consider.

[SonOfSpartans]

I opted to renew my membership. This will be my second year as a member. I did it before this email came out just as a way of keeping local matches available to me. I am glad to see the FFR going away. I will also be intrigued to see of LOP comes into being. Going for the survey page now. I think the CCP is covered by BUG at this point. Just my opinion.

[v1911]

We already have a BUG division, this just a smaller version of that?

My money is on the optics. From an industry standpoint it also makes sense. People enjoy buying new toys. Look at how explosive 3-gun has been. People will want to buy/build new guns to play with.

[Rob Tompkins]

I opted to renew my membership. This will be my second year as a member. I did it before this email came out just as a way of keeping local matches available to me. I am glad to see the FFR going away. I will also be intrigued to see of LOP comes into being. Going for the survey page now. I think the CCP is covered by BUG at this point. Just my opinion.

We already have a BUG division, this just a smaller version of that?

My money is on the optics. From an industry standpoint it also makes sense. People enjoy buying new toys. Look at how explosive 3-gun has been. People will want to buy/build new guns to play with.

BUG is Back Up Gun - limited to 5 rnds and lumps semi's and rev's together. Its designed to provide a place for really small J-frames and pocket pistols with smaller chamberings.

The CCP Division would be a place for larger (as compared to pocket pistols) but still small (as compared to full size pistols) guns shooting 9mm or larger ammo to play on a more level field and not be scored against 5" barreled guns that have large easey to hang onto grips.

[BillR1]

Optical sights on carry guns are not common. But to think that laser sights are also scarce is to be VERY ill-informed. Handgun laser sights, like the Crimson Trace and LaserMax models, are common and growing in popularity on concealed carry handguns. They are even offered by several makers on their factory concealed carry handguns!

Their drawback to competitive use is that their visibility is limited to less than 5 yards under most lighting conditions found on outdoor ranges. But, they are awesome! on indoor ranges and I have shot "IDPA-like" matches on indoor ranges where they did have a laser division. But, it is something that a "concealed carry/self defense-oriented sport" should consider.

Interesting...what would you guess that the percentage of concealed carry handguns in use today wear some type of laser? My guess would be less than 10%, but I'm always open to education if you have some hard numbers...

[GOF]

Can't speak to hard figures because there aren't any. Can speak to my circle of shooting buddies in FL and note that 80% of them have at least one CC pistol with a laser. Most are J-frame sized, but not all.

Overall I would bet that there are more people carrying a laser-equipped concealed carry pistol than carry a 625 as a concealed carry gun.

[BillR1]

Overall I would bet that there are more people carrying a laser-equipped concealed carry pistol than carry a 625 as a concealed carry gun.

LOL...NO question!!

I also agree with your other statement that lasers would be nearly worthless in the vast majority of IDPA matches. (i.e. outdoors)

Edited November 4, 2014 by BillR1

[Bkreutz]

Lasers would make calling the 180 easier (at least indoors)

In reality, it might make the matches scarier when you can really see where the muzzle points during a string.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Bkreutz

[GOF]

I have shot indoor matches with a laser-equipped gun (3 inch Ruger GP-100 in a BUG match). It was a TOTAL HOOT! It was a real eye opener on how effective a laser sight can be in a self defense situation in dim light. Everybody should do that at least once.

As for outdoor ranges?... lasers are pretty useless. The iron sights are the first to grab the eye... they are faster!

[M1911]

I have shot indoor matches with a laser-equipped gun (3 inch Ruger GP-100 in a BUG match). It was a TOTAL HOOT! It was a real eye opener on how effective a laser sight can be in a self defense situation in dim light. Everybody should do that at least once.

As for outdoor ranges?... lasers are pretty useless. The iron sights are the first to grab the eye... they are faster!

I agree that red lasers are useless on outdoor ranges. I wonder if green lasers are more usable.

[GOF]

I've played with some green lasers. They seem (at least the ones I've T&Eed), to offer little increase in usable distance outdoors. On an outdoor range, in bright sunlight, I'd be keying on the same iron sights I've used for years. At indoor rangesa it's a TOTALLY different matter. LASERS ROCK indoors. Even if the indoors seem brightly lit.

I once went into a typical convenience store (where I knew the manager well)... no customers in the store... I asked if I could "flash" a laser-sighted pistol. He said yes, just make sure there are no customers. This place had full front glass windows, bright sunny day, and overhead fluorescent lights. It was bright. But I could see the laser clearly at 10 yards (front the counter to the rear coolers).

Lasers have a very useful place. Shooters just have to ignore the maker's 'hype" and look at what they will do in the Real World.

Although, I would not recommend walking into a convenience store and drawing a laser-equipped handgun without having made some previous arrangements.

Edited November 4, 2014 by GOF

[motosapiens]

First let me say that I'm a USPSA shooter. I have vowed to never shoot with a vest. But I have read this entire thread. Why? Slide mounted optics, that why!

I'm a black and white guy, no gray area. I'm not sure I could allow myself to be subjected to subjectively called penalties. But I'm trying to be open minded ONLY because I'm interested in the possible optics division. It seems that some good things (as in competition minded) might be in the works. I have no interest in make believe scenarios, I'm only going to show up to compete and have fun. If the "real world" crap can be eliminated, moving reloads become legal, AND I can mount an optic on my slide I'll shoot a few matches and see how it goes. But the first sign of inconsistent penalty calling would end it for me.

I'll be watching

The only way the LOP Division will happen is if the gun mounted laser crowd out votes the small carry gun crowd. I think its only a very small fraction of shooters care about a slide mounted gun optic becase facory options are limited and very expensive as compared to small carry gun.

I'll be watching. If they want my $40, it's ONLY because of LOP that I'd shoot IDPA. As you put it, I'm sure the BUG will win out

but you can already shoot that gun in USPSA. Why don't you? And why don't you get your friends to do it too? And why don't you ask the MD to break out your scores separately? I know i would happily do that. Prove that there are more than 10-15 people in the country that care about this issue.

[GOF]

I do have to wonder how many people carry a concealed handgun with an optical sight installed... as opposed to how many carry a pistol or revolver with a barrel less than 3.5-inches. I have to wonder if a self-defense organization like IDPA could look at those numbers and make an intelligent decision (that's a key, and Berryville has so far given us little clues as to whether "intelligent" figures into their thought process ..... witness the recent World Championship in PR decision, that was a major a FAIL) so will have to see how this works out.

IMHO, the CCP concept would be more attractive. But, Berryville will have to rule on this.

[zhunter]

First let me say that I'm a USPSA shooter. I have vowed to never shoot with a vest. But I have read this entire thread. Why? Slide mounted optics, that why!

I'm a black and white guy, no gray area. I'm not sure I could allow myself to be subjected to subjectively called penalties. But I'm trying to be open minded ONLY because I'm interested in the possible optics division. It seems that some good things (as in competition minded) might be in the works. I have no interest in make believe scenarios, I'm only going to show up to compete and have fun. If the "real world" crap can be eliminated, moving reloads become legal, AND I can mount an optic on my slide I'll shoot a few matches and see how it goes. But the first sign of inconsistent penalty calling would end it for me.

I'll be watching

The only way the LOP Division will happen is if the gun mounted laser crowd out votes the small carry gun crowd. I think its only a very small fraction of shooters care about a slide mounted gun optic becase facory options are limited and very expensive as compared to small carry gun.

I'll be watching. If they want my $40, it's ONLY because of LOP that I'd shoot IDPA. As you put it, I'm sure the BUG will win out

but you can already shoot that gun in USPSA. Why don't you? And why don't you get your friends to do it too? And why don't you ask the MD to break out your scores separately? I know i would happily do that. Prove that there are more than 10-15 people in the country that care about this issue.

I have a Delta Point 2 (Pro) on order. I am the scorer at our match, and as soon as I get it (assuming they actually make them) I will have a Production Optics division in our scoring every month

[logiztix]

I don't think a separate division for each frame size of Glock is the answer. I also don't believe that carry optics have risen to the level of practical for a defensive pistol sport either. The choices on the IDPA ballot look a lot like the one I just filled out for the mid-terms. I don't like either, but would I rather one than the other? Hmmm.

BUG should capture the concept of a compact carry. The Glock 26 belongs there. A 3" barreled S&W 625 does not. Fix BUG first and make it a standard division. There are problems with the divisions we have already. Adding more without fixing the ones we have seems poorly thought out. So, we keep the Glock 19 in a different division than a 17, but that 0.5" barrel difference needs addressed before we find somewhere for 40 S&W, .357 SIG and others to reasonably compete?

LOP makes a leap too far in my opinion. I have had lasers on a couple of carry and nightstand guns, in addition to night sights for years. I'm as much a gadget nerd as the next guy, but I don't think IDPA is ready for carry optics. If we can have several page discussions on who is at fault when a competitor is allowed to start without a vest, how many re-shoots will we have for dot illumination related issues? I can MAYBE see a division that allows any otherwise IDPA legal gun to add a laser and see where THAT is a couple years from now. Anything else could have people dumping $1000 into something that (much like all of their Flat-Footed Reload practice,) is deemed useless a year later. I see a lot more ports, bushings and the like on carry guns than optics. If carry optics were that mainstream, someone other than S&W would be producing a factory model with them.

[M1911]

but you can already shoot that gun in USPSA. Why don't you? And why don't you get your friends to do it too? And why don't you ask the MD to break out your scores separately? I know i would happily do that. Prove that there are more than 10-15 people in the country that care about this issue.

Glock slides milled for RMR optic, available at Brownells: http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/slide-parts/slides/tactical-19-rmr-slide-for-glock--sku100008783-45253-101546.aspx

Glock slides milled for RMR optic, available from One Source Tactical: http://www.onesourcetactical.com/tsdpistolslides.aspx

Glock slides milled for optics available from Lone Wolf: http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=156471

From Rogers Shooting School: http://www.rogersshootingschool.com/products/gunslide.php

From GlockWorx: http://www.glockworx.com/products.aspx?CAT=3720

There wouldn't be that many different places providing this service if only 10-15 people nationwide were carrying Glocks with slide-mounted optics.