Game changer

[Carmoney]

No, that can't be. We were all assured it was equal footing. Surely you must be kidding.

Tell you what, Mark, why don't you go find the post where anybody said 8-minor and 6-major were on equal footing? (At least while you're busily looking for something that doesn't exist, we can all get a break from your inane remarks.)

[Carmoney]

The third post here was my prediction. I felt like it was pretty obvious that the new rule would kill the 625

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=176874&hl= rip

You really can't kill something that is already dead, can you Gregg? It remains to be seen whether the rule change will revive the division (with only five wheels at Area 5, I'm not feeling very optimistic right at the moment), but something needed to happen to try to keep Revolver Division alive.

[MarkCO]

No, that can't be. We were all assured it was equal footing. Surely you must be kidding.

Tell you what, Mark, why don't you go find the post where anybody said 8-minor and 6-major were on equal footing? (At least while you're busily looking for something that doesn't exist, we can all get a break from your inane remarks.)

This is afterall a discussion, and when guys like Mike choose to attack me personally instead of have a discussion...well that is an answer in itself.

Your true colors are more vibrant everytime you attack instead of discuss.

[Guest]

Why does two extra rounds (score minor) make shooting the round gun more appealing?

Fair question.

Here are my reasons:

1. Although section 1.2 states any shooting location or view shouldn’t require more than eight shots the reality is eight is the magic number more than not. Since I am horrible at reloading a revolver it is easier to fit 3 reloads in on a 32 round stage vs. 5 reloads and standing reloads are always frustrating whether it be a wheel gun or bottom feeder.

2. Cost of components. It is cheaper to load for .38 (and I already had a boat load of 160gr bullets that weren’t being used so I figured this is a good way to expend them).

3. If I am going to shoot .45acp I’d tend to just go with a single stack.

4. Shooting minor vs. major is part of the challenge as I need to get the A’s. I’m hoping this will help my focus in my open gun game, too.

Keep in mind that my perspective is that of a casual/crossover revolver shooter so I am not saying these are great reasons, but they are the reasons the rule change got me into playing in revolver division.

[GOF]

The only reason the 45 ACP 625 revolver was popular was because of a Major PF and 6 shot rule. The 625 was legitimized by Rule. It was never popular as a carry gun, or an 'everyday' gun. It was sanctified by Rule. Revolver shooters tend to be more accurate than the average semi-auto shooter, so when a 8 shot Minor gun was Ruled on equal footing, the results were pre-ordained. Alphas count the same for Minor as Major. Eight round moon clips instead of six, and with less recoil. Like "Duh!"

[thermobollocks]

The only reason the 45 ACP 625 revolver was popular was because of a Major PF and 6 shot rule. The 625 was legitimized by Rule. It was never popular as a carry gun, or an 'everyday' gun. It was sanctified by Rule. Revolver shooters tend to be more accurate than the average semi-auto shooter, so when a 8 shot Minor gun was Ruled on equal footing, the results were pre-ordained. Alphas count the same for Minor as Major. Eight round moon clips instead of six, and with less recoil. Like "Duh!"

Why would Major be an advantage if revolver shooters are more accurate?

Also, don't forget the 625's roots as an issue gun.

[GOF]

The 625 was never at issue gun. The basic 1917 was, using moon clips. That's because in WW1 they didn't have enough 1911 .45 ACPs. You ever see anyone shooting a 1917, fixed channel sight revolver in competition?

Where are both of those guns now? The .45 ACP needs it's own division (Single Stack in USPSA and CDP in IDPA) to be competitive. In USPSA the Rules dictate a 1911. In IDPA, they screwed up and allowed polymer frame guns in, and they are kicking steel frame 1911 butt. The 1911s that are succeeding are updated versions (2011). They can run with the polymer framer guns, but they're not the original 1911 design. The 625? Where does that fit? Cops carry them? Civilian CCWers carry them? No, just shooters forced into them by Rules. Rules change. Guns die.

With revolver shooters being more accurate, why not a 8 shot minor caliber gun instead of a 6 shot Major gun. The later is a bit uncomfortable to shoot for extended periods of time. 8 shot Minor replace 6 shot Major?... like Duh!

Edited June 17, 2014 by GOF

[thermobollocks]

The 625 was never at issue gun. The basic 1917 was, using moon clips. That's because in WW1 they didn't have enough 1911 .45 ACPs. You ever see anyone shooting a 1917, fixed channel sight revolver in competition?

I meant its grandparent, not the exact model. I'm well familiar with the story.

I see about as many fixed sight 1917s as I do pre-A1 1911s in competition, which is also the same number of STIs I see getting carried.

With revolver shooters being more accurate, why not a 8 shot minor caliber gun instead of a 6 shot Major gun. The later is a bit uncomfortable to shoot for extended periods of time. 8 shot Minor replace 6 shot Major?... like Duh!

You can drop points just as easily with a 627 as with anything else. If revolver shooters are more accurate, then, back to my original question, why would anyone have bothered with revo major before this rule change? Surely there must be an advantage.

[GOF]

There certainly is an advantage to Major caliber. A Zone hits counts the same for both Major and Minor. C hits cost Minor more points than Major. When six shot revos were all that was allowed many shooters chose Major (which meant a 625, or of you could find one, a 610) because of that. What's hard to understand about that?

Now that eight shot Minor is allowed, the dropped points for C Zone hits are negated by the extra 2 rounds in eight shot gun, lesser reloads (those take time) and the lesser recoil (that adds up for some during the course of a 150+ round match and impacts their performance on the last stages). Speed wins in USPSA. More bullets, less reloads, less recoil? What's not to love?

Theory is one thing. Match results are another. The 8 shot Minor is posting better scores. That is the bottom line, and the one that counts to competitors. That's why the 8 shots are getting a lot of attention.

[Gregg K]

The third post here was my prediction. I felt like it was pretty obvious that the new rule would kill the 625

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=176874&hl= rip

You really can't kill something that is already dead, can you Gregg? It remains to be seen whether the rule change will revive the division (with only five wheels at Area 5, I'm not feeling very optimistic right at the moment), but something needed to happen to try to keep Revolver Division alive.

Yep, We are a dying breed. When I saw Phil at the Oil Field Classic I told him that I was looking for him to kick him in the nuts for killing my 625.

I told him I was just kidding because I was sure that something needed to change and since I had no solution to offer to the problem that I would just go with the flow and keep an open mind that the 8 shooter rule was the answer. I'm not convinced that it is the answer but there may not be an answer to revive the wheelgun. As us old timers go away I fear that the revolver will go with us. I'll keep shooting revolver and keep dragging as many new guys as I can into the game with hopes of sparking some new interest to keep it alive.

[underlug]

"Also, don't forget the 625's roots as an issue gun."

Actually, a bowling pin gun

[underlug]

The third post here was my prediction. I felt like it was pretty obvious that the new rule would kill the 625

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=176874&hl= rip

You really can't kill something that is already dead, can you Gregg? It remains to be seen whether the rule change will revive the division (with only five wheels at Area 5, I'm not feeling very optimistic right at the moment), but something needed to happen to try to keep Revolver Division alive.

Do you have some information the rest of us do not? I have an email from Strader saying he tried to kill Revolver and Limited 10 and that he could not. I do not think the "issue" of revolver going away is currently extant

[pskys2]

The third post here was my prediction. I felt like it was pretty obvious that the new rule would kill the 625

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=176874&hl= rip

You really can't kill something that is already dead, can you Gregg? It remains to be seen whether the rule change will revive the division (with only five wheels at Area 5, I'm not feeling very optimistic right at the moment), but something needed to happen to try to keep Revolver Division alive.

Do you have some information the rest of us do not? I have an email from Strader saying he tried to kill Revolver and Limited 10 and that he could not. I do not think the "issue" of revolver going away is currently extant

Really? This from the guy who set up a separate Revolver Nationals?

[L3324temp]

There certainly is an advantage with 8rd guns even with minor scoring. I think it was wrong to screw all the regular 625 shooters by allowing this. You attract a few new shooters and force your regulars to sell their 625's at a loss and buy new guns and all the accessories. Not cool.

[fishhunter3]

There certainly is an advantage with 8rd guns even with minor scoring. I think it was wrong to screw all the regular 625 shooters by allowing this. You attract a few new shooters and force your regulars to sell their 625's at a loss and buy new guns and all the accessories. Not cool.

I don't know about that it was just another excuse to buy a new gun, very cool and most of the accessories were the same that I used with my 610 except for the moon clips, and most of us wont sell our old guns

[revoman]

There certainly is an advantage with 8rd guns even with minor scoring. I think it was wrong to screw all the regular 625 shooters by allowing this. You attract a few new shooters and force your regulars to sell their 625's at a loss and buy new guns and all the accessories. Not cool.

How does this differ from any other division when new guns or new equipment is introduced. Look at all the single stack comp 45 that are no longer used or worth much. Also nobody forces anyone to sell at a loss unless you just want to sell at a loss. Change is hard to accept but change did come and now it is time to embrace and see where it takes us and those who want to complain need to go play elsewhere.

[polymerfeelsweirdman]

There certainly is an advantage with 8rd guns even with minor scoring. I think it was wrong to screw all the regular 625 shooters by allowing this. You attract a few new shooters and force your regulars to sell their 625's at a loss and buy new guns and all the accessories. Not cool.

How does this differ from any other division when new guns or new equipment is introduced. Look at all the single stack comp 45 that are no longer used or worth much. Also nobody forces anyone to sell at a loss unless you just want to sell at a loss. Change is hard to accept but change did come and now it is time to embrace and see where it takes us and those who want to complain need to go play elsewhere.

Revolver seems to be the true one gun division though. Take the rule change in limited that dropped the 500 unit requirement- if anything it made limited have more variety. I know one might say limited is a one gun division as well because of the 2011 but I would argue that other guns like the CZ TS and Glocks are competitive as well plus it isn't like just one company makes 2011 type guns. Even with single stack there is variety in that more than one company makes 1911s which fit the rules. With revolver you basically only have Smith and Wessons. Before you had the 625 and to some extent the 610 and 646, now you have the 627 (and the 929 and 327 I suppose). Taurus is the only other major producer of 8 shot revolvers but Taurus quality is hit or miss and the 8 shots are ported and therefore not legal. The thing I dislike is that there is literally one manufacturer that makes guns which are competitive in the division and I think that is a result of the rules. From that company there is one choice if you consider that the 929 and 327 are not all that different from the 627.

Just trying to give a different perspective on it.

[twodownzero]

Why does two extra rounds (score minor) make shooting the round gun more appealing?

Something about the rule requiring 8 round neutrality.......

Still was a poor decision to allow 8 shots in Revolver, in my view. We had a division for that--it was called "Production."

[thermobollocks]

Wasn't Production supposed to be the plastic wonder nine division? You could argue as well that L10 (or even Limited or Open) can accommodate 8-shot revolvers, but let's be real about what's competitive and what isn't.

What shooting skills is revolver division testing? DAO and round gun reloads, in my experience. DAO will put you at a disadvantage against any of the striker guns, and box mags quite handily destroy moon clips. Quite plainly, if a 627 worked well in prod or l10, you'd see more of them.

[PatJones]

Quite plainly, if a 627 worked well in prod or l10, you'd see more of them.

I think I was the only idiot in eastern Colorado campaigning a 627 in L10. Now with the rules change we had 10 revo shooters shooting 8 shot guns at the Rocky Mountain 300, more than L10 or single stack.

[pskys2]

Quite plainly, if a 627 worked well in prod or l10, you'd see more of them.

I think I was the only idiot in eastern Colorado campaigning a 627 in L10. Now with the rules change we had 10 revo shooters shooting 8 shot guns at the Rocky Mountain 300, more than L10 or single stack.

Wow, that does sound promising.

Did they have bandolers of moon clips?

[71Commander]

all I know is if they don't do something with the classifers there are going to be a whole lot more M and GM in revo, I'm A 69% B shooter( about were I should be).I have 2 GM scores on file now 96 and a 100 ( and I shot slow I thought)that don't count yet and 86 that does a couple more and there is going to be a M or GM after my name and I not ready for that yet, don't want to sand bag them becouse the count for match score.

They have did something with the classifiers. I stand at 74.7%. I have 3 classifiers excluded under condition "A" as shot too high.

[mcb]

At club level matches shoot your 6-shooter in Revolver division to keep an 8-shot friendly Classifier from artificially boosting your classification percentage and then shoot your 8-shooter in Production and embarrass the bottom feeders!

[alecmc]

I shoot all alphas anyway, so the extra 2 shots are pretty advantageous

[mcb]

I shoot all alphas anyway, so the extra 2 shots are pretty advantageous

I have heard that, "If your shooting all alphas you're not shooting fast enough."