2 Revolver Subdivisions in USPSA Revolver

[j33716]

One additional problem with adding divisions is scoring programs.

They do have major and minor but it would be a major update to include new divisions

Jay Corn

Candidate for 2014 Area 6 Director

So .... we're more concerned with the inconvenience of updating the scoring program versus brining more revolver shooter into the fold?

Nope. Just pointing out what some may not know. Its a bit complicated to get the programs updated. Adding divisions may take a bit longer to implement since scoring programs cannot do it. Going with major/minor is not an issue. Its just one factor to think about.

[Tom E]

I'm going to stand on:

8 shooters scored minor with a >120PF

6 & 7 shooters, moonclip fed, scored major with a >160 PF, scored minor with a >120 to 160 PF

6 & 7 shooters, speedloader fed, scored major with a >120 PF

No scoring changes required, just revolver, major or minor

Don't like it? Then offer a viable alternative.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Tom E

[Grim]

I thought it was stated in previous posts that 6-shot speedloader fed revolvers were dead?

With that 'logic' all that is left is the 6 and 8 round moonclip revolvers. It's a pretty neat self-fulfilling prophecy when you think about it. Marginalize a small section of the competing population, abet one with the greatest potential for growth, so that they either switch to a pistol to compete or they walk away.

[PatJones]

Why all of this talk about speedloaders?

The typical gun shop in the US doesn't even have enough of them on the wall to complete a USPSA stage nevermind a way to hang them on your belt.

[caswellranch2013]

I hope they go 6 shot speedloader and moonclip gun, as stated before people feel behind the curve running speedloader against moonclip, if you have a place to play with like gear (not against) more shooters may get in (may). Skill will sort out 8 shot moon 'V' 6 shot moon.

PS I like shooting my speedloader fed Ruger, have 8 speedloaders and holders.

[kmca]

Why all of this talk about speedloaders?

The typical gun shop in the US doesn't even have enough of them on the wall to complete a USPSA stage nevermind a way to hang them on your belt.

I've never seen STI mags on the shelf, but I have seen speedloaders

[Bubber]

Speedloaders Not Competitive? The only reason that I switched to moonclips was I hated picking up my brass and having all my friends doing the same for me. I hated to impose on these people. Moonclips get me all my brass back. Moonclipped 45's are the most forgiving at reloading. But at one time (I used to practice my reloads quite dilgently) it was a wash from mooncliped 38 supers to 38 specials in a speedloader. If you want to discuss getting something for speedloaders then get out there and shoot them at the local level in numbers. I gave an honest try with the 45 major loads and I am switchng back to minor, whether it be 8 or 6 shot. I will continue to battle the opressive windmills. Where is my pard Sancho Panza? Roge Davis

[Tom E]

I thought it was stated in previous posts that 6-shot speedloader fed revolvers were dead?

With that 'logic' all that is left is the 6 and 8 round moonclip revolvers. It's a pretty neat self-fulfilling prophecy when you think about it. Marginalize a small section of the competing population, abet one with the greatest potential for growth, so that they either switch to a pistol to compete or they walk away.

Why all of this talk about speedloaders?

The typical gun shop in the US doesn't even have enough of them on the wall to complete a USPSA stage nevermind a way to hang them on your belt.

So what's the problem with making it plausable to shoot a speedloader fed gun? Think speedloaders are dead? ICORE created a class for them and they're alive and doing well. I thought the idea was to offer ideas to increase participation.

Have something constructive to add?

[Racinready300ex]

SSR is the speedloader division of IDPA, and is doing much better than ESR.

I just bought a 625, for uspsa. Before I drop another 1k on a 8 shot revolver I'll probably stop shooting revolver.

[COF]

I believe what we're seeing from the limited data we have that 8-minor is not a lock and 6-major can be competitive. It just frustrates the hell out of me why folks think they've got to spend X to get Y or they're not competitive and if they have to do that they're going to take their ball and go home

We're trying to find ways to increase participation. Let's try it first before we predict the sky is falling.

[Tom E]

I believe what we're seeing from the limited data we have that 8-minor is not a lock and 6-major can be competitive. It just frustrates the hell out of me why folks think...

I agree. When you figure in the classification system it could be a toss.

[Cd662]

"SSR is the speedloader division of IDPA, and is doing much better than ESR."

I think this is much much less about moonclips versus speedloaders and much much more about 105 PF versus 165 PF. I recently ran my first ESR Classifier with my SSR gun and 357 magnum and my hand was pretty tore up. It was neither fun nor pleasant.

" So what's the problem with making it plausable to shoot a speedloader fed gun? Think speedloaders are dead? ICORE created a class for them and they're alive and doing well. I thought the idea was to offer ideas to increase participation. "

Let's have a look-see...

2013 ICORE Attendance:

IRC: Classic, 36 Limited, 107 Open 81

Southwest Regional: Classic 12, Limited 35, Open 40

Rocky Mountain Regional: Classic 5 (Two A class guys and three unranked, with a 200 second gap between 2nd and 3rd...) 7 Limited, 23 Open

New England Regional: Classic 15, Limited 10 Open 9

Central States Regional: Classic 12, Limited 15, Open 8

East Coast Regional: Classic 8, Limited 21, Open 7

Obviously the attendance ratio varies in different regions. Who knows if this actually reflects attendance trends or if its just chance. For example, last year's East Coast Regional Championship only had 3 people shooting Classic. Not too good. The amount of Unranked shooters may also be telling: these might be people just "trying" Classic at a sanctioned match, as opposed to people who primarily shoot Classic. Or, perhaps they shoot a lot of Classic but just don't send in their classifiers - again, there's not enough data to be conclusive. That having been said, if you compare the ratio of speedloader to moonclip fed guns in all of these cases, it's always skewed towards moonclip guns.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Cd662

[Grim]

So if there is there is open discussion and a possible decision about allowing an 8-shot moonclip division, why not go a little further and allow a 6-shot speedloader division? Its really not that much more of a stretch.

[Cd662]

Because 6 shot guns using speedloaders are already allowed in USPSA. 8 shot moonclip fed guns are allowed but may only fire six shots before being bumped to open. A 6 shot speedloader specific division would be trying to make a certain alraedy-legal population more competitive. An 8 shot provision broadens the possibilities of who can participate.

[Tom E]

A 6 shot speedloader specific division would be trying to make a certain alraedy-legal population more competitive. An 8 shot provision broadens the possibilities of who can participate.

6 shot speedloader fed guns (almost always minor) are currently pretty hopeless.

"6 & 7 shooters, speedloader fed, scored major with a >120 PF" would give them a chance at being competitive.

[Cd662]

I'm sorry, this just still makes no sense to me. We have tangible numbers for people who shoot IDPA and ICORE sanctioned matches with speedloaders. There aren't a lot of them. There are no droves of people waiting to shoot USPSA if only they could earn more points. I could apply this thinking to every other division. All the people that shoot their Glocks in Limited division but who don't have any significant upgrades on their gun have a disadvantage compared to an STI. Let's give them more points. All the people that want to shoot a short barrel, sub-10 round magazine auto pistol in Production are at a disadvantage. Let's give them more points. And while we're at it, let's give more points to the Revolver shooters who are trying to shoot Production competitively, since that's not a total waste of time or anything...

I don't like the 8 shot thing but I'm willing to give it a try I suppose. It's something the BOD has tangibly considered. I STRONGLY DOUBT that the BOD would consider allowed a subsection of the smallest USPSA division to compete with a LOWER power factor. There are two actual things that can happen:

1. The division remains as is

2. The division allows 8 shot revolvers.

The USPSA BOD announcement was regarding discussion about allowing 8 shot revolvers. It wasn't a "Come forth with every idea" proclamation so I'm not sure why we're still discussing modifying power factor and leveling the playing field for different types of guns. Carmony talked about this on Page 2 and I agree wholeheartedly. If you're a USPSA Revolver shooter and have an opinion, I'd say get in touch with your regional coordinator.

[Tom E]

I'm sorry, this just still makes no sense to me.

The USPSA BOD announcement was regarding discussion about allowing 8 shot revolvers. It wasn't a "Come forth with every idea" proclamation so I'm not sure why we're still discussing modifying power factor and leveling the playing field for different types of guns. Carmony talked about this on Page 2 and I agree wholeheartedly. If you're a USPSA Revolver shooter and have an opinion, I'd say get in touch with your regional coordinator.

1. What I proposed was just a change WITHIN THE DIVISION to allow more to reasonably compete.

2. Maybe you missed this:http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=176874&page=3 post # 61

3. I am a USPSA revolver shooter and I did bring this up (e-mail) to my Area 5 Director.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Tom E

[RevolverJockey]

I think we should all just stop talking and brace for 8 shot or no revolver division. What I like most about revolver division is simplicity. No fancy mags, no scrounging for brass like a beach crab looking for food, no major equipment race. 6 shots or 8, what does it matter. Anyone who competes can find a way to get whatever gun is the flavor of the day. Sub divisions and special accommodations in power factor I believe should be avoided. "Count to 6, repeat" or "Count to 8 for slightly less points, repeat" seems like plenty of choices. Just my opinion.

Lee

Edited August 9, 2013 by Mitch_Rapp.45

[Grim]

I'm sorry, this just still makes no sense to me. We have tangible numbers for people who shoot IDPA and ICORE sanctioned matches with speedloaders. There aren't a lot of them. There are no droves of people waiting to shoot USPSA if only they could earn more points. I could apply this thinking to every other division. All the people that shoot their Glocks in Limited division but who don't have any significant upgrades on their gun have a disadvantage compared to an STI. Let's give them more points. All the people that want to shoot a short barrel, sub-10 round magazine auto pistol in Production are at a disadvantage. Let's give them more points. And while we're at it, let's give more points to the Revolver shooters who are trying to shoot Production competitively, since that's not a total waste of time or anything...

I don't like the 8 shot thing but I'm willing to give it a try I suppose. It's something the BOD has tangibly considered. I STRONGLY DOUBT that the BOD would consider allowed a subsection of the smallest USPSA division to compete with a LOWER power factor. There are two actual things that can happen:

1. The division remains as is

2. The division allows 8 shot revolvers.

The USPSA BOD announcement was regarding discussion about allowing 8 shot revolvers. It wasn't a "Come forth with every idea" proclamation so I'm not sure why we're still discussing modifying power factor and leveling the playing field for different types of guns. Carmony talked about this on Page 2 and I agree wholeheartedly. If you're a USPSA Revolver shooter and have an opinion, I'd say get in touch with your regional coordinator.

Nice attitude, no wonder there is a problem with attendance numbers of revolver shooters. way to marginalize!

Yes, I do shoot revolvers. Got tired / bored with shooting autos and bought a GP100 and enjoyed it. I am not interested in moonclips and have no desire to alter my GP100. I just do not understand this attitude of 'well, if you want to compete you have to spend the money to buy X, Y, Z race gear or just leave'. Not going to grow the division or the sport that way.

As I said I shoot with speedloaders only, what I would like to do is COMPETE with / against other speedloader shooters with like equipment. Speedloaders against moonclips, either 6 or 8 round, is not an equal comparison but speedloader vs. speedloader does have the ability to offer parity.

Grow revolver, and by extension, the sport. This can be done by 1) Allowing 8-shot moonclips, 2) adding a speedloader division, 3) stop marginalizing revolvers, specifically speedloader fed revolvers, 4) get the word out about the revolver changes to the shooting community as a whole, and 5) be patient and allow time for the revolver divisions to grow.

Probably too much to ask from some, but my .02 cents.

[twodownzero]

Because 6 shot guns using speedloaders are already allowed in USPSA. 8 shot moonclip fed guns are allowed but may only fire six shots before being bumped to open. A 6 shot speedloader specific division would be trying to make a certain alraedy-legal population more competitive. An 8 shot provision broadens the possibilities of who can participate.

8 shot revolvers are already allowed in the Production division.

Count me as thinking that this is both a pointless discussion as affecting far too few people and a pointless rule change as to make the equipment that has been the standard of the revolver division obsolete.

This will not be like single stack's 8/10. It will ruin the current revolver division and piss off a lot of people. Revolver is simply too small for a drastic change like this.

[jhgtyre]

The current revolver division is already in ruins or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Changing to 8 minor, 6 major, cannot piss off a lot of people because there are not a lot of people who actually shoot revolver division. This isn't about letting people play with revolvers in Open, Production or any other division, it is about fixing the worst performing division in the sport. Saying that people can shoot an 8 shot revolver in other divisions is akin to pointing out that people can shoot their 625's in ESR, it doesn't help USPSA revolver division at all.

-ld

[mcb]

Because 6 shot guns using speedloaders are already allowed in USPSA. 8 shot moonclip fed guns are allowed but may only fire six shots before being bumped to open. A 6 shot speedloader specific division would be trying to make a certain alraedy-legal population more competitive. An 8 shot provision broadens the possibilities of who can participate.

8 shot revolvers are already allowed in the Production division.

Count me as thinking that this is both a pointless discussion as affecting far too few people and a pointless rule change as to make the equipment that has been the standard of the revolver division obsolete.

This will not be like single stack's 8/10. It will ruin the current revolver division and piss off a lot of people. Revolver is simply too small for a drastic change like this.

Is it you intuition or do you have data to support the claim that that 8-shot Minor will ruin Revolver? I don't mean to be overly confrontational but so far I am not seeing it, but would love to see data either way. I have shot the last two club matches with both guns (8-shot minor in L-10 or Production) and so far in 8 stages 8-shot minor had 1 win (comparing hit factors) for me on a stage I zeroes with my 6-shot (6-misses does bad things to a HF). Now I admit my reloads are painfully slow with the 627 compared to the 625 because of the ammo I was using, but even taking that into account I am not seeing 8-Minor dominated 6-Major. If you have data that shows otherwise I would love to see it.

[cas]

Not in favor of it.

Or 6/8.

[Tom E]

Count me as thinking that this is both a pointless discussion as affecting far too few people and a pointless rule change as to make the equipment that has been the standard of the revolver division obsolete.

How does it make sense to continue a division as is where "the equipment that has been the standard of the revolver division" the 5" 625 has been discontinued for years? Add 8 shooters scored minor to the mix and IMHO also add 6 shot speedloader guns scored major at a >120 PF.

[caswellranch2013]

"SSR is the speedloader division of IDPA, and is doing much better than ESR."

I think this is much much less about moonclips versus speedloaders and much much more about 105 PF versus 165 PF. I recently ran my first ESR Classifier with my SSR gun and 357 magnum and my hand was pretty tore up. It was neither fun nor pleasant.

" So what's the problem with making it plausable to shoot a speedloader fed gun? Think speedloaders are dead? ICORE created a class for them and they're alive and doing well. I thought the idea was to offer ideas to increase participation. "

Let's have a look-see...

2013 ICORE Attendance:

IRC: Classic, 36 Limited, 107 Open 81

Southwest Regional: Classic 12, Limited 35, Open 40

Rocky Mountain Regional: Classic 5 (Two A class guys and three unranked, with a 200 second gap between 2nd and 3rd...) 7 Limited, 23 Open

New England Regional: Classic 15, Limited 10 Open 9

Central States Regional: Classic 12, Limited 15, Open 8

East Coast Regional: Classic 8, Limited 21, Open 7

Obviously the attendance ratio varies in different regions. Who knows if this actually reflects attendance trends or if its just chance. For example, last year's East Coast Regional Championship only had 3 people shooting Classic. Not too good. The amount of Unranked shooters may also be telling: these might be people just "trying" Classic at a sanctioned match, as opposed to people who primarily shoot Classic. Or, perhaps they shoot a lot of Classic but just don't send in their classifiers - again, there's not enough data to be conclusive. That having been said, if you compare the ratio of speedloader to moonclip fed guns in all of these cases, it's always skewed towards moonclip guns.

No Classis division would have ment 88 less shooter in the listed matches, while the numbers are low the % on some matches is high.

Some state that speedloader is already legal in USPSA but nobody shoots it (or only a few), this is true but look at or for the reason.

Revolver shooting is a passion, you have to want to shoot it, it's hard work to get the reloads perfect, figure out stages 6rds at a time (or 8, ha easy) etc,etc, most people want to shoot on the weekend and have fun and to most, revolver is not fun and looks to be much like work.

I thought the point of this was "how to get more in the game".