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2 Revolver Subdivisions in USPSA Revolver


mactiger

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"LOOK at who has something to GAIN here! This is being pushed and politicked by a certain few that want/need to step away from major or a sponsor looking to boost sales in this area. It's just another case of what one or a few want(s) getting pushed on the rest of us."

Dude can you stop this? Are you the same guy that posted this last time? You can't say "I don't think there's an evil plot afoot" when you obviously just insinuated that. There is no grand conspiracy from Smith and Wesson to sell guns. Put two and two together. The two major viable options for 6 shot major are the 625 and the 610, those are both Smith and Wessons. Besides the Ruger Alaskan dude on here, I don't see people running around with .41 magnum Tauruses or whatever. Even if there was some massive conspiracy to make people buy 627s, do you think Smith would care about some niche market when they can get people to buy ridiculous Model 500s that people will never shoot, or if they can sell a ton of J-frames? As for the sponsored shooter conspiracy theory, anyone that is really legit is still going to be legit with 8 shot minor. Those guys do shoot the most in terms of round count and I don't think I've talked to anyone that shoots revolver and says "Gee, I really love shooting major!" Its more recoil, and its more expensive.

I think Carmoney is right, I don't really want the 8 shot thing but I'm willing to deal with it. I also wonder how many people here are just saying stuff without having a horse in the race. Obviously everyone should be allowed to have an opinion, even non-USPSA members, but one would suppose that active revolver shooters should have the most say. Right?

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What I said was look who has something to gain by this. I don't perceive this change as evil, but I resent people saying it's not going to be any different and others not realizing who benefits. You're putting eight shots on the field. Scoring will be outweighed by the increased capacity and lack of standing reloads. Two shooters of the same classification will not be equal shooting 6 vs. 8. I have a horse in this race, a 6 shot major gun. It's not the same as single stack. The array maxes out at eight shots and you're wishfully thinking if you believe that you're going to out plan the eight shot gun with a six shooter, he can always plan down to six. You're not just adding makeup shots here, you're adding the ability to get out of the array without a standing reload.

I know you are correct in saying that the greats will still be great. They'll also all be shooting 8 shot minor because it is making the best sense. The only way I see to keep the major scoring at nationals(or any other place where revos shoot by themselves)would be to make it six shot neutral.

I'm not opposed to giving the 8's a place to play, but it's a sad affair that it must be at the expense of the six shooter.

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The hope is that all Revolver shooters will benefit by having some actual competition take place. I ran these numbers the other day for the BOD but I'll post them again here. (I'm probably going to have missed one or two, but it'll be pretty darn close). In 2012, the last complete year, there are 38 matches listed as majors where Revolver was an option. I'm not including the Single Stack Nationals and other matches that don't recognize Revo even if someone wanted to shoot it. Of those 38, 30 didn't have enough to recognize Revolver under the rules. 4 of 8 Area matches couldn't even pull enough revo shooters to hand out a plaque. Other than the Memphis match, Nationals, and a 4 Area matches there were only 2 matches that had 10+ shooters. And the majority of the matches that did have enough, just barely had enough. 10 maybe 11.

Revolver is not working as is. There are a small handful of people shooting it that are die hards. Not a lot of new blood coming in. Unless something changes I don't see the numbers going up, but down.

I also don't agree with the folks that say that 8 minor will dominate 6 major. It may, but it's certainly not as clear cut as people seem to think. I'm certainly not basing that on my own experience since I suck with a revo and you can time my reloads with a sundial. But I talked to a handful of hard core revo guys and they can't even decide which will be better. It's going to depend on the match. I also think it's going to depend on the skill level of the shooter more than anything. I think the GM's will be better served by 6 Major, and the rest of us by 8 minor. The reload speed for someone at the top is significantly less than a C/D class shooter. But hey, what do I know.

As far as the classifiers. That's an easy fix. Remove some, tweak others, add some new ones. It's easy enough to make the classifiers neutral to 6/8 shot differences. Make them 6 before a load (which a bunch already are), or 9-12 rounds so both have to reload, or ... There are a lot of different options. But until it's decided to make the change there's no reason to mess with the classifiers or decide the best way to fix them. It has been discussed and there are plenty of options to even the field. (Actually if I had to bet it will probably favor 6 shot guns since they will be scored major)

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I don't know which would be better either, as others have said I believe that depends on the stage. I think 6 Major/8 Minor should be considered, and it 'may' improve participation (may not but it is worth trying).

I believe that additional subdivisions would not improve participation though.

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Just my 2 cents, most people that have 6 shot 38spl speedloader fed guns feel behind the curve when running against a moonclip 625, this is what led to the split in IDPA and would have been fine but for the PF change ( they do not compete against each other so why), if PF had stayed at 125 for both I feel we would have more shooters in revolver (more so in ESR). The same reason that many do not shoot 38spl speedloader fed 686/19/GP etc in USPSA, if the division gave a place to play with both but not against each other it may lead to more shooters (may), PF should be based on what box you check no matter what you shoot, if you shoot SS etc you can shoot MIN/MAJ. If it's moonclip who cares 6 shot-8 shot maj-min both have pros and cons.

IDPA, what's that? Oh yeah. It's that shooting sport that penalizes you for dropping an empty magazine on the ground.

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6/8 all one Division with major/minor scoring. Same as SS.

It's not the same as SS. With SS, whether you are shooting major(8) or minor (10) and have an 8 round array, neither competitor is forced into a standing reload - not true with revolver 6/8.

Edited by cheryl
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What I said was look who has something to gain by this.

I figure I have something "to gain by this". I'm not going to pointlessly get pounded by major loads to punch holes in paper and I won't have to deal with the futility of endless standing reloads on 8 round arrays. I'd had enough and haven't been shooting USPSA. If this, 8 minor / 6 major, goes thru I'll be back with an 8 shooter.

Edited by Tom E
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6/8 all one Division with major/minor scoring. Same as SS.

It's not the same as SS. With SS, whether you are shooting major(8) or minor (10) and have an 8 round array, neither competitor is forced into a standing reload - not true with revolver 6/8.

I understand that. I was alluding to minor having a round advantage but major having a scoring advantage while shooting in one division.

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I too found the multitude of standing reloads no fun. I sold my 625 and stopped shooting USPSA altogether. I'm not a big fan of bottom feeders. I use my 627 for Steel Challenge , NRA Action and steel matches at Briar Rabbit Shooting Sports where my 8 shooter is allowed to compete heads up with the 6 shooters in their revolver division. If the 6 major / 8 minor rule passes, I will be back to shoot some USPSA matches.

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8 shot minor will necessarily mean that the winner and one's relative position in a match will be dictated by course design. While in a major revolver match like a revolver nationals advantage can be negated, lesser more local matches and other major matches will not be designed with revolver in mind. Advantage 8 shot.

The correct perception will be that you need an 8 shot to do your best. This will harm participation not increase it.

I know one shooter that will switch to production and limited 10 because it is a flat table wherever you shoot

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How about if you allow 8 shot minor and do a provisional season like was done with SS and see what shakes out?

Can't. The USPSA bylaws would have to be changed to allow anything like that. No small task, and might be a box of trouble.

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How about if you allow 8 shot minor and do a provisional season like was done with SS and see what shakes out?

Can't. The USPSA bylaws would have to be changed to allow anything like that. No small task, and might be a box of trouble.

Create a new provision 6-Major/8-Minor Revolver division that incorporates the new rules. Leave the existing Revolver division as is. At the end of the Provisional period BOD votes and picking the one that proves better.

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Create a new provision 6-Major/8-Minor Revolver division that incorporates the new rules. Leave the existing Revolver division as is. At the end of the Provisional period BOD votes and picking the one that proves better.

As much as I love gaming stages, I don't think I want any part of gaming the USPSA bylaws like that. I'd be fearful of any BOD that did.

Creative thinking, though.

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Create a new provision 6-Major/8-Minor Revolver division that incorporates the new rules. Leave the existing Revolver division as is. At the end of the Provisional period BOD votes and picking the one that proves better.

As much as I love gaming stages, I don't think I want any part of gaming the USPSA bylaws like that. I'd be fearful of any BOD that did.

Creative thinking, though.

LOL, thanks Flex, I guess I snapped into gamer mode on the discussion.

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If I was King, revolver division would have:

8 shooters scored minor with a >120PF

6 shooters, moonclip fed, scored major with a >160 PF, scored minor with a >120 to 159 PF

6 shooters, speedloader fed, scored major with a >120 PF

Perfect? No. But it's the bestest I can conjure up.

I have my flame proof undies on.

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If I was King, revolver division would have:

8 shooters scored minor with a >120PF

6 shooters, moonclip fed, scored major with a >160 PF, scored minor with a >120 to 159 PF

6 shooters, speedloader fed, scored major with a >120 PF

Perfect? No. But it's the bestest I can conjure up.

I have my flame proof undies on.

I have to say at first blush I sort of like it.

I am curios why you suggest the 120 and 160, that are 5 PF under the other divisions for Minor/Major?

How do you think the shoot Minor score Major for the Speedloads would go over with the BOD?

It would really open up the number of potentially viable revolvers that could be used.

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If I was King, revolver division would have:

8 shooters scored minor with a >120PF

6 shooters, moonclip fed, scored major with a >160 PF, scored minor with a >120 to 159 PF

6 shooters, speedloader fed, scored major with a >120 PF

Perfect? No. But it's the bestest I can conjure up.

I have my flame proof undies on.

I have to say at first blush I sort of like it.

I am curios why you suggest the 120 and 160, that are 5 PF under the other divisions for Minor/Major?

How do you think the shoot Minor score Major for the Speedloads would go over with the BOD?

It would really open up the number of potentially viable revolvers that could be used.

I matched Icores' 120 PF to make it easier for Icore shooters to (legally) shoot. Same PF ammo. 160 major PF because revolvers just beat you up more than semi-autos at the same PF. Don't know about the BOD but my thought was that speedloadered 6 scored major at 120 would make it at least feasible to come play with a speedloadered 6 shooter. No way I see it becoming "the gun of choice" but it gives them a chance to come play.

Edit: Thinking about this more, with our classification system, I can see any class short of GM being won by any of the 4: 8 minor, moonclip 6 major or minor, or speedloader 6 scored major.

Edited by Tom E
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I really don't think the answer to our problems is making everything more elaborate. USPSA has always been minor and major. This isn't ICORE. ICORE is it's own game. Why would we make a sub/major and sub/minor and this uses this feeding system and that uses speedloaders?

For the record, I've been shooting USPSA the past two years with minor, and speedloaders, and frequently with a 4" barrelled gun. On a lot of classifiers where you're doing a standing reload, it's not really a big deal.

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I really don't think the answer to our problems is making everything more elaborate. USPSA has always been minor and major. This isn't ICORE. ICORE is it's own game. Why would we make a sub/major and sub/minor and this uses this feeding system and that uses speedloaders?

For the record, I've been shooting USPSA the past two years with minor, and speedloaders, and frequently with a 4" barrelled gun. On a lot of classifiers where you're doing a standing reload, it's not really a big deal.

Elaborate? I summed it up in 12 words:"8 minor, moonclip 6 major or minor, or speedloader 6 scored major". It would just be a matter of registering as Revolver then declaring major or minor.

What classification have you attained "with minor, and speedloaders, and frequently with a 4" barrelled gun"?

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No, USPSA isn't ICORE but if the goal is increasing revolver participation and we're in the brainstorming stage, let's look at all the options. This one opens the door for the 6-shot speedloader guys to compete on less of a slope than there is right now.

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No, USPSA isn't ICORE but if the goal is increasing revolver participation and we're in the brainstorming stage, let's look at all the options. This one opens the door for the 6-shot speedloader guys to compete on less of a slope than there is right now.

Indeed. A forum like this is where all of the ideas, even my hare-brained notions, aren't hurting anything by being opened for critique and discussion.

I still like my "Major/Minor X 2" scoring for revolvers. Allow a "possible" score on a target with one A-zone hit.

This definitely puts the "practical" into the game, as you certainly don't need to go double tapping everything in sight if you only have 6 shots.

It also greatly closes the gap between 6 and 8-shot guns, indeed it greatly closes the gap between revolvers and the other guns in general.

It negates the need to make stages "revolver neutral", allowing designers more freedom without hanging the wheelgun shooters.

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