2 Revolver Subdivisions in USPSA Revolver

[ed_henry]

Dcloudy777 this sound like Paldin scoring. Back in the 80 and early 90 you could see it sometimes.

[dcloudy777]

I figured someone had figured this out before... I'm not that smart.

To me, it just seems to bring the most benefit while having the least negative impact.

[caswellranch2013]

All stages must be set up in 6 shot groups, no more revolver problem, no need for new divisions, no advantage for 8 shots. SS and prod would have a few more reloads on some stages, O.K. It's been done before (8 shot groups) for SS.

Edited August 3, 2013 by caswellranch2013

[dcloudy777]

All stages must be set up in 6 shot groups, no more revolver problem, no need for new divisions, no advantage for 8 shots. SS and prod would have a few more reloads on some stages, O.K. It's been done before (8 shot groups) for SS.

I'm willing to bet that match directors and stage designers would not be real happy with that.

[ed_henry]

Dcloudy good luck on 6 shot arrays. But matches can be set up so it is not just stand here shoot this Stand there shoot that.

Present a problem and let the shooter solve he problem.

[mcb]

I shot the Gem City's August match with both the 625 in Revolver and 627 in Production. The 6-shot Major won every stage even with 8-shot Minor fired second. My raw Minor score was 98.7% of my raw Major score but I was slower on every stage even with 3 of 4 stages being 30+ stages. That said my 627 reloads are painfully slow using JHP and SWC. In the end I shot 89.5% of my 6-shot Major score with the 8-shot Minor. I really need to get round nose 38's loaded. None the less I was pleased, I shot both runs clean, no misses, no penalties and no extra shots. I have not done that in quite some time. The one thing I notice was that despite 8-shot Minor having a theoretical 2 reload advantage on a 32 rd stages putting one or more ridged 7-round arrays in there cancels much of the reload advantage.

This is the video from the match. 6-shot Revolver first on each stage followed by 8-shot Production.

[Chuck Anderson]

It's interesting. Your split times, shot to shot sounded just about exactly the same between guns. Did minor make any difference recoil wise? Or are you just so used to major you didn't go as fast as you could with the .38.

Looked like any difference in the .38 times were based more on reloads than anything else. I'm betting RN bullets and a bit more time behind the .38 and the times will get better.

[mcb]

It's interesting. Your split times, shot to shot sounded just about exactly the same between guns. Did minor make any difference recoil wise? Or are you just so used to major you didn't go as fast as you could with the .38.

Looked like any difference in the .38 times were based more on reloads than anything else. I'm betting RN bullets and a bit more time behind the .38 and the times will get better.

I agree, my split times are probably similar partial because I am use to shooting major. Some of it may also be that my 625 has a very smooth trigger job. The 627 trigger is a bit heavier and not as smooth. Something I am still working on. I also was think about shooting more accurately because of the minor scoring and thus not going as fast as I might have.

And yeah my 8-shot reloads are really bad mostly because of the crappy ammo I am using. The dies for my 650 should arrive today and I can start working up a good load. I am fairly certain that the 158gr round nose I have for reloading will be better than the HP and SWC I was using in the above video.

[RevolverJockey]

I think it is worth mentioning, even if the reloads had been smoother, say 1/2 second faster each, the 8 shot does not look discernible faster on the stages in the video. Any idea how your scores would have panned out if both were scored as minor or major?

Lee

[mcb]

I think it is worth mentioning, even if the reloads had been smoother, say 1/2 second faster each, the 8 shot does not look discernible faster on the stages in the video. Any idea how your scores would have panned out if both were scored as minor or major?

Lee

So perfect for the match would have been 560pts. 6-Shot run scored major was 529, scored minor was 502. 8-Shot run scored major was 539, scored minor was 522. The break down was 6-shot (85-A, 25-C, 2-D) 8-shot (95-A, 15-C, 2-D). Scored Major the 8-shot run only wins on one stage. Clearly I need to get my reloads with the 8-shot polished up for the comparisons to have more meaning.

[Grim]

The division won't grow if it's kept the way it is. It probably won't gain new shooters by adding 8 shot revolvers, they'll probably come from the other divisions. If there was a way to get all the 6 shot 38's out of the safe, and use them as close to "out of the box" configurations, that would get new shooters.

Sorry, I wish I knew how to do that

jhgtyre hit the nail on the head with "Classic Revo - 6 shot guns only. No moon clips. Speed loaders only. No optics (post and notch sites only). No ported or compensated barrels."

This is the only way that I see to get NEW shooters with their EXISTING / CURRENTLY owned revolvers to come out and play. A Classic Revolver division would be the cheapest and easiest way to introduce and draw out / introduce new shooters to the sport and to the Revolver division(s) as most revolver owners already have a holster they can use, either an OWB/IWB, and would only have to purchase additional speedloaders and pouches to get started. Over time some if not most of these shooters will update their equipment to be more competitive, maybe even their guns to 625s or 8-shooters which is great. but they have to come out and play first.

Does this not make sense?

[Grim]

I believe that two major issues are being glossed over here:

1)An 8 round minor gun will now be the ticket and the six shot minor will be obsolete. Accuracy has always been a requirement in Revo, so discussion of that is moot. If you cant shoot straight, you are already limited in your ability to do well in this division; no room for mistakes. The ability to eliminate standing reloads and reloads in general will far out weigh any minor scoring. A minimum of three reloads to get to 32 as opposed to 5 in a six shot gun. Thank you for that four to six seconds.

2)Where is the data coming from that suggests there are copious amounts of folks sitting on the sidelines with 8 shot Revos? I believe that most of the people who own them are already invested in moon clip .45's or 10's. Think about it. I started out as a single action guy, then moved into double action speed loader, and then into double action only moon clip. The gear is not hanging on most gun shop walls for the eight shots much less the moon clip six.

LOOK at who has something to GAIN here! This is being pushed and politicked by a certain few that want/need to step away from major or a sponsor looking to boost sales in this area. It's just another case of what one or a few want(s) getting pushed on the rest of us. If it is going to be done IT MUST BE SEPARATED ON THE SCORE SHEETS. There is no other way to do it without making all the six shooters obsolete.

Speedloaders are obsolete. There just aren't enough categories to cover all the different guns.

I wish someone had told me that before I bought all those speedloaders over the last couple of years, I could have saved a ton of cash. Maybe I can make some of it back by selling them as 'collectors items' in a few years.

[seanc]

I think it is worth mentioning, even if the reloads had been smoother, say 1/2 second faster each, the 8 shot does not look discernible faster on the stages in the video. Any idea how your scores would have panned out if both were scored as minor or major?

Lee

So perfect for the match would have been 560pts. 6-Shot run scored major was 529, scored minor was 502. 8-Shot run scored major was 539, scored minor was 522. The break down was 6-shot (85-A, 25-C, 2-D) 8-shot (95-A, 15-C, 2-D). Scored Major the 8-shot run only wins on one stage. Clearly I need to get my reloads with the 8-shot polished up for the comparisons to have more meaning.

So, scoring was very close points wise. That aside you are MUCH smoother with the 6 shot gun for reasons you list(fp ammo is making for reloads that are lacking, rough action)....

You are also shooting through the second time, so you are shooting with more fatigue which is effecting performance.

Its hard to really argue that 6 major "wins"..

[mcb]

I think it is worth mentioning, even if the reloads had been smoother, say 1/2 second faster each, the 8 shot does not look discernible faster on the stages in the video. Any idea how your scores would have panned out if both were scored as minor or major?

Lee

So perfect for the match would have been 560pts. 6-Shot run scored major was 529, scored minor was 502. 8-Shot run scored major was 539, scored minor was 522. The break down was 6-shot (85-A, 25-C, 2-D) 8-shot (95-A, 15-C, 2-D). Scored Major the 8-shot run only wins on one stage. Clearly I need to get my reloads with the 8-shot polished up for the comparisons to have more meaning.

So, scoring was very close points wise. That aside you are MUCH smoother with the 6 shot gun for reasons you list(fp ammo is making for reloads that are lacking, rough action)....

You are also shooting through the second time, so you are shooting with more fatigue which is effecting performance.

Its hard to really argue that 6 major "wins"..

6-shot clearly won but not because its better. There where lots of factors that let my 6-shot run beat my 8-shot run. The "jury is still out" IMHO. By next match I should have a 627 specific load worked up and I will shoot it first. First is better from a fatigue point of view. Second is better from an experience point of view. In most cases I shooter a stage better the second time through. That said I helped setup the match that morning so fatigue certainly was playing its role.

Edited August 5, 2013 by mcb

[alecmc]

It was nice seeing some of the area 8 stages come to life for this weekend!

[Blueridge]

MCB

I am curious. Were you trying to take advantage of the 8 shot capacity? From watching you shoot the stages with both it appeared that your tactics were the same shooting both the 6 shot and the 8 shot. How often did you reload the 6 shot before using all the rounds in the moonclip compared to the times that you reloaded the 8 shot before you used the all the rounds from the moonclip? If you are reloading pretty much as often with both the 6 shot and 8 shot, then the possible advantage from capacity is negated.

Maybe I missed something when I watched the video.

[TGO]

I support 8 minor / 6 major. I'd also like an across the board 125PF for revolver. Everybody gets 125 PF but 8 shooters are scored minor, six shooters are scored major. Getting beat up with major loads in a revolver to make holes in paper makes no sense to me. It's considerabley more abuse than major in a semi-auto.

Wouldn't that pretty much eliminate the "V" in DVC?

Doesn't eight shot minor take away from the "V" in DVC also? If we're willing to let the 8 shot minor into the division, and there are fears that it would dominate the division over 6 shots, doesn't Tom E's idea go a little further with making them both competitive with each other. If the argument is to grow the division and make it fun for everyone, doesn't that idea help with that. It seems to me you could make 8 shot minor and 6 shot major competitive with each other, grow the division by allowing other styles of revolvers in, and make it appealing by raising the fun factor......I think the idea has promise.

What style of revolver is not currently allowed in?

[TGO]

The division won't grow if it's kept the way it is. It probably won't gain new shooters by adding 8 shot revolvers, they'll probably come from the other divisions. If there was a way to get all the 6 shot 38's out of the safe, and use them as close to "out of the box" configurations, that would get new shooters.

Sorry, I wish I knew how to do that

You are not alone in your wishes. Quite obviously, no one knows how to get that done. The reason is not many are wanting to shoot a stock 6 shot .38 with speedloaders at a USPSA match. The support for this statement is that you currently can and few if any shooters do. I also hope we get a vote on this sometime soon.

[TGO]

I wouldn't be willing to score a 126 PF gun major but what about scoring everything minor like we do in Production? It wouldn't make any guns obsolete...

With 8 shooters in the mix "scoring everything minor like we do in Production" would obsolete all the 6 shooters. Major 6 and minor 8 makes it workable. Making it viable for more 6 shooters should make for more participation. 165PF for major .40 and up, 110 PF for major for sub .40 (.38)?

Sorry, that would be leaving the 8 shooters out. We'd lose some potential ICORE folks but there are a lot more Model 10 Smith's out there than Model 627's. And, no way would I agree to drop PF down to 110. We'd have to change how we calibrate steel and some just doesn't want to be set that light. To be blunt, and this is only me speaking, it's not worth it to make that much of a change to cater to what is likely less than a 100 shooters it would effect.

Listen to this you all. He's telling you how the board is thinking. Get real in your wishes and expectations. This ain't Christmas and Chuck ain't Santa! The revolver shooters are on the naughty list, and we need to do better to make it worth keeping. Maybe that is harsh, but it is realistic. IPSC dropped modified due to low participation and support. If you wanna division for revolver at all, something needs to be tried. Something logical, doable and attractive to the revolver competitor community at large.

[TGO]

On all these different types of schemes to make the 6 shot speedloaders competitive, let's be realistic, they cannot be. Also, no new shooter is coming to the range to shoot a USPSA match with one. They come with production and SS guns and shoot in those divisions or limited. I don't care how many there are out there, you go watch any USPSA match and you will not go home and start digging through your stuff looking for your old model 10. ALSO, the current proposal doesn't disqualify the current 625 major 6 shooters. And if you think you can come up with an accurate, clean burning easy to load minor load for the .45, it is more troublesome than you might think

Again, lets be realistic.

[Chuck Anderson]

I wouldn't be willing to score a 126 PF gun major but what about scoring everything minor like we do in Production? It wouldn't make any guns obsolete...

With 8 shooters in the mix "scoring everything minor like we do in Production" would obsolete all the 6 shooters. Major 6 and minor 8 makes it workable. Making it viable for more 6 shooters should make for more participation. 165PF for major .40 and up, 110 PF for major for sub .40 (.38)?

Sorry, that would be leaving the 8 shooters out. We'd lose some potential ICORE folks but there are a lot more Model 10 Smith's out there than Model 627's. And, no way would I agree to drop PF down to 110. We'd have to change how we calibrate steel and some just doesn't want to be set that light. To be blunt, and this is only me speaking, it's not worth it to make that much of a change to cater to what is likely less than a 100 shooters it would effect.

Listen to this you all. He's telling you how the board is thinking. Get real in your wishes and expectations. This ain't Christmas and Chuck ain't Santa! The revolver shooters are on the naughty list, and we need to do better to make it worth keeping. Maybe that is harsh, but it is realistic. IPSC dropped modified due to low participation and support. If you wanna division for revolver at all, something needs to be tried. Something logical, doable and attractive to the revolver competitor community at large.

I honestly don't know what the other BOD members have in mind. We haven't really discussed this since the meeting and all the input came in. The above is my opinion and mine alone.

[mcb]

It was nice seeing some of the area 8 stages come to life for this weekend!

Yeah, especial since my wife called dibs on that weekend for and archery tournament so I don't get to go to Area-8. I got to shoot three of the stages at least.

MCB

I am curious. Were you trying to take advantage of the 8 shot capacity? From watching you shoot the stages with both it appeared that your tactics were the same shooting both the 6 shot and the 8 shot. How often did you reload the 6 shot before using all the rounds in the moonclip compared to the times that you reloaded the 8 shot before you used the all the rounds from the moonclip? If you are reloading pretty much as often with both the 6 shot and 8 shot, then the possible advantage from capacity is negated.

Maybe I missed something when I watched the video.

I tried to use the capacity and felt I did an OK job, but stage design can whack that 8-shot advantage. The first stage was a fine example.

The left and right most arrays of the stage were 7 shots (3-Metric 1-PP) and none of those 4 targets could not be shot anywhere else. It made no sense to me to carry one round in the gun into the next shooting position. There where 18rds between the first and last shooting positions, so I broke it up into three 6-shot groups. I could have done 8-8-2 but then I would have come into the last array of seven shots with only 6rds in the gun. doing 6-6-6 put reloads on longer moves. So in a 32 rd stage that 8-shots should have saved me 2 reloads it only saved me one because of array sizes/placement.

The second stage it saved me a slow walking reload through the first array and a standing reload before the charge to the wall, although with how painfully slow those SWC where loading it probably did not appear too. All it all it saved me one reload on a 30rd stage.

Stage 3 the 8-shot worked great saving me two reloads. Had my reloads been smoother I should have smoked my 6-shot run on that stage. The targets where close so accuracy was not an issue, just my SWCs biting me in the butt.

Stage 4 was three 6-shot arrays not much 8-shots can help with there.

Edited August 6, 2013 by mcb

[robertson]

I support 8 minor / 6 major. Does anyone really think mod 10s are going to show up in any numbers.

Don't those guns have 4" barrels and crude sights. Even a mod 14,15, or 19 as nice as those guns are, still only hold 6 rounds. Six rounds with speedloaders and picking up brass one piece at a time doesn't sound fun. I think a bunch of guys are gearing up to shoot 627s in revolver division right now.

John Robertson

Edited August 6, 2013 by robertson

[RevolverJockey]

Another thing I wasn't really considering when I was originally thinkin the 8 minor was going to be the end all be all for revolver is if there was even the occasional fumbled reload and the need to occasionally show down to get all A's will factor in. It is almost like we would need 2 identical people to shoot the stage with identically skilled run to have a true comparison but that isn't possible. Is there a clear numerical advantage? I think it is clear 6 minor is dead and speed loaders will stay that way.

Lee

[Blueridge]

MCBI am curious. Were you trying to take advantage of the 8 shot capacity? From watching you shoot the stages with both it appeared that your tactics were the same shooting both the 6 shot and the 8 shot. How often did you reload the 6 shot before using all the rounds in the moonclip compared to the times that you reloaded the 8 shot before you used the all the rounds from the moonclip? If you are reloading pretty much as often with both the 6 shot and 8 shot, then the possible advantage from capacity is negated.Maybe I missed something when I watched the video.

I tried to use the capacity and felt I did an OK job, but stage design can whack that 8-shot advantage. The first stage was a fine example. The left and right most arrays of the stage were 7 shots (3-Metric 1-PP) and none of those 4 targets could not be shot anywhere else. It made no sense to me to carry one round in the gun into the next shooting position. There where 18rds between the first and last shooting positions, so I broke it up into three 6-shot groups. I could have done 8-8-2 but then I would have come into the last array of seven shots with only 6rds in the gun. doing 6-6-6 put reloads on longer moves. So in a 32 rd stage that 8-shots should have saved me 2 reloads it only saved me one because of array sizes/placement. The second stage it saved me a slow walking reload through the first array and a standing reload before the charge to the wall, although with how painfully slow those SWC where loading it probably did not appear too. All it all it saved me one reload on a 30rd stage. Stage 3 the 8-shot worked great saving me two reloads. Had my reloads been smoother I should have smoked my 6-shot run on that stage. The targets where close so accuracy was not an issue, just my SWCs biting me in the butt. Stage 4 was three 6-shot arrays not much 8-shots can help with there.

Thanks for the clarification. While I can watch the video and see what was done, I cannot know what mental engagement decisions are being made. Seeing those stages shot by the same person using a 6 shot and an 8 shot then seeing the comparison of the results suggest to me that the competition difference might not be that wide.

I for one will be sticking with my 6 shot revolver (using speedloaders), and if the new rulebook changes come into play I want to remain competitive (yeah I know that is a relative term) even against some 8 shot revolver participants. Along with the some 6 shot participants.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Blueridge