2 Revolver Subdivisions in USPSA Revolver

[dcloudy777]

I'll have to take your word for it, Ty. ICORE around here is harder to find than 5" 625s.

[Jaxshooter]

All of he ICORE shooters I shoot with would shoot USPSA also if they go to 6 Major - 8 Minor. Don't think the guys in Australia would be interested in selling ICORE.

[caswellranch2013]

Classic = 6 shot speedloader, LTD = anything with moonclips, check box maj/min

[CDPMatt]

I'm classified in revolver but do not shoot it much. That being said, I like the idea of 6 major/8 minor in the same division. It actually has me looking for a 627 so I support it. I do not support a split but would like to see a category for speed loader guns as there are sure way more K/L frame .38 guns than anything else.

[pskys2]

Well the 6 shot minor guns can be used now and are as competitive as a minor open gun. Lower recoil, cheaper ammo but minor scoring. And they just don't get brought out.

I do have 3-5 guys who say they will come out if they can use their 8 shot's, how long they participate before they go back to NRA Action Pistol, ICORE or nothing? Don't know, I expect 1 or 2 would stick around.

One thing to remember is the type of shooters with what guns and who uses them.

The general masses, the ones who have 6 shot minors available don't compete, and if they do they seem to gravitate to Production. But I would hazard that a larger percentage of those with 8 shots do search out some form of Revo competition. I know they like Steel and ICORE, and I see quite a few at the NRA Action Matches. And even there I don't see a lot of 6 shots, even though TGO and Enos used them to win Bianchi Cups.

If Revo went to Minor only, I'd stick with my 19/2011's, It just wouldn't interest me. If it stays the same as now, I'll still compete at some larger matches and occasionally locally. If it goes to 8 minor, I'll dedicate to it for a year or two. Still can't say which platform I'd go with at this time though. Each has it's strengths and weakness. But it would be a new challenge to work at. And that's one of the things that keeps me in USPSA.

Edited July 30, 2013 by pskys2

[sperman]

I don't think some of you understand categories in USPSA.

6.3.1 USPSA matches may include different Categories within each Division to recognize different groups of competitors. A competitor may declare multiple Categories for a match or tournament.

Appendix As - 3. Individual Categories:

Categories approved for individual recognition are as follows:

a. Lady

b. Junior Competitors under the age of 18 on the first day of the match.

c. Senior Competitors over the age of 55 on the first day of the match

d. Super Senior Competitors over the age of 65 on the first day of the match. A competitor over the age of 65 on the first day of the match may enter Senior Category only if Super Senior is unavailable.

e. Military Military personnel on current active duty orders.

f. Law Full-time law enforcement officers with arrest powers.

Notice that categories deal with the competitors, and have absolutely nothing to do with the equipment. Divisions define the equipment.

5.1.1 Handguns are separated and defined by Divisions (see Appendix D), however, courses of fire must remain consistent for all Divisions.

[Pete Whyte]

I like the idea of 6major 8minor & drop the P.F. for major. 95% of the time I shoot revolver , so whatever is deceided, I'll still be shooting the revolver. What does DVC mean? Pete

[Forrest Halley]

I believe that two major issues are being glossed over here:

1)An 8 round minor gun will now be the ticket and the six shot minor will be obsolete. Accuracy has always been a requirement in Revo, so discussion of that is moot. If you cant shoot straight, you are already limited in your ability to do well in this division; no room for mistakes. The ability to eliminate standing reloads and reloads in general will far out weigh any minor scoring. A minimum of three reloads to get to 32 as opposed to 5 in a six shot gun. Thank you for that four to six seconds.

2)Where is the data coming from that suggests there are copious amounts of folks sitting on the sidelines with 8 shot Revos? I believe that most of the people who own them are already invested in moon clip .45's or 10's. Think about it. I started out as a single action guy, then moved into double action speed loader, and then into double action only moon clip. The gear is not hanging on most gun shop walls for the eight shots much less the moon clip six.

LOOK at who has something to GAIN here! This is being pushed and politicked by a certain few that want/need to step away from major or a sponsor looking to boost sales in this area. It's just another case of what one or a few want(s) getting pushed on the rest of us. If it is going to be done IT MUST BE SEPARATED ON THE SCORE SHEETS. There is no other way to do it without making all the six shooters obsolete.

[Trebor Snave]

I like the idea of 6major 8minor & drop the P.F. for major. 95% of the time I shoot revolver , so whatever is deceided, I'll still be shooting the revolver. What does DVC mean? Pete

Pete, DVC is short for "Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas", Latin for Accuracy, Power, Speed.

[kmca]

I believe that two major issues are being glossed over here:

1)An 8 round minor gun will now be the ticket and the six shot minor will be obsolete. Accuracy has always been a requirement in Revo, so discussion of that is moot. If you cant shoot straight, you are already limited in your ability to do well in this division; no room for mistakes. The ability to eliminate standing reloads and reloads in general will far out weigh any minor scoring. A minimum of three reloads to get to 32 as opposed to 5 in a six shot gun. Thank you for that four to six seconds.

2)Where is the data coming from that suggests there are copious amounts of folks sitting on the sidelines with 8 shot Revos? I believe that most of the people who own them are already invested in moon clip .45's or 10's. Think about it. I started out as a single action guy, then moved into double action speed loader, and then into double action only moon clip. The gear is not hanging on most gun shop walls for the eight shots much less the moon clip six.

LOOK at who has something to GAIN here! This is being pushed and politicked by a certain few that want/need to step away from major or a sponsor looking to boost sales in this area. It's just another case of what one or a few want(s) getting pushed on the rest of us. If it is going to be done IT MUST BE SEPARATED ON THE SCORE SHEETS. There is no other way to do it without making all the six shooters obsolete.

Speedloaders are obsolete. There just aren't enough categories to cover all the different guns.

[MarkCO]

Forrest, while I agree with you, I hope you have lots of nomex and no-one has your email address. But thanks for stating the obvious.

[Forrest Halley]

I agree that speed loaders are likely obsolete, although there are still some guys that are great at running them and it is an absolute privilege to watch them run.

Nomex? It is what is brother. I'm not the greatest shooter in the world and I don't have to be to have an opinion. I've spoken to shooters that I consider great and formed my opinion based of that input and my personal experience. If it can't be openly debated without kid gloves it's not for me.

I don't hold it against anyone for the attempt(that will likely succeed, if it hasn't already) to change the revolver division. The 5" .45ACP revolver hasn't been made in a while and so it makes economic sense to try and direct the sport away from an unavailable platform. From a corporate perspective it makes sense to move toward something that is more competitive with an auto loader. It fits the plinker and the competitor. Moon clips or no moon clips? Your choice. Nobody will complain about having extra rounds in a defensive, competitive, or plinking situation.

From an individual's perspective I don't know that I'd want to shoot 2 or 300k of major PF every year as I got older. For my dollar I get more rounds out of the gun and it doesn't beat me up. Powder and bullets are economized with the .38 something.

I am not saying that there is an evil plot afoot. I am saying that folks are working to change the game forever and we all need to understand how and why.

Patiently waiting by the gas can with a pack of Marlboros....

[steel1212]

Yeah don't split it. IDPA did that and it just made participation in both smaller.

How about if you allow 8 shot minor and do a provisional season like was done with SS and see what shakes out?

[COF]

While I am in support of the change to 6-major/8-minor, I also support making it a provisional change like we did with SS. Maybe that would stop some of the knashing of teeth...

[mcb]

While I am in support of the change to 6-major/8-minor, I also support making it a provisional change like we did with SS. Maybe that would stop some of the knashing of teeth...

Provisional sounds good to me, lets burn some powder!

Edited July 30, 2013 by mcb

[Carmoney]

LOOK at who has something to GAIN here! This is being pushed and politicked by a certain few that want/need to step away from major or a sponsor looking to boost sales in this area. It's just another case of what one or a few want(s) getting pushed on the rest of us.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, Forrest, but the facts do not support your position that only a certain few people want this change and it's being pushed on everybody else.

I was the person who initiated the original "Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?" thread and poll back in January. That discussion thread now has over 600 replies and 20,000 views. The poll indicates that those favoring the 8-minor options far outnumber those against the change, to the tune of approximately 3 to 1.

So I don't know what "great shooters" you've been talking to, but the reality is pretty much the exact opposite of your conspiracy theory. Most revolver people think the 8-minor option is a good idea. Many others don't really care either way. There are a few people who are very much opposed to the change--including several close friends of mine--and they can make a perfectly decent argument for their own position on the subject.

Want to know how I personally feel?.........I feel like a doctor who is trying to convince the family of a dying cancer patient that they need to consider a new experimental form of chemotherapy. There is the distinct possibility that even with the new chemotherapy regimen, the patient will die anyway, and there is a risk the drugs will detract from his quality of life in the meantime. But if we do nothing, the long-term prognosis is grim.

[MarkCO]

While I am in support of the change to 6-major/8-minor, I also support making it a provisional change like we did with SS. Maybe that would stop some of the knashing of teeth...

I agree that the "provisional" stamp would be beneficial. In that case, I believe many of those who see the potential pitfalls would be able to support the test case.

[PatJones]

It seems to me that the vast majority of these "6-shot minor" guns are chambered in a caliber that easily makes major power factor. .357 magnum.

[kmca]

It seems to me that the vast majority of these "6-shot minor" guns are chambered in a caliber that easily makes major power factor. .357 magnum.

That's true, but I for one, wouldn't want to shoot magnum loads. I'll just continue shooting my 38 using speedloaders

[Wagonburner]

I shoot both,as a 6 major shooter I understand and experience the MAJOR brings to the table,power speed and accuracy must be balanced and executed.That is the foundation of revo shooting ,the foundation as it exist. Shooting the 8 minor is fun ,fast and it brings into play more variations of the stage execution,for a lack of better term "gaming " .i am a A division shooter in revo,when competing I have few options in target sequencing with the importance on hit factors.The 8 shot game is more suited to out think and out perform the competition . The two divisions 6 Major 8 Minor will suffice in USPSA, no optics,ever

[Pete Whyte]

Thanks Bob Pete

[Forrest Halley]

I was the person who initiated the original "Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?" thread and poll back in January. That discussion thread now has over 600 replies and 20,000 views. The poll indicates that those favoring the 8-minor options far outnumber those against the change, to the tune of approximately 3 to 1.

So I don't know what "great shooters" you've been talking to, but the reality is pretty much the exact opposite of your conspiracy theory. Most revolver people think the 8-minor option is a good idea. Many others don't really care either way. There are a few people who are very much opposed to the change--including several close friends of mine--and they can make a perfectly decent argument for their own position on the subject.

Alright, "conspiracy theories" aside, adding the 8's changes the game.

How do you figure that participation is going to increase? How many 8 shots are waiting on the fence to get in the game? It's a $1000+ setup to play. I am under the impression that those who have the guns and aren't currently playing likely don't have a great quantity of moon clips or holders or a holster. I would go further to venture that you could advertise free ammo in 8 shot clips for anyone that wanted to shoot the match and had a gun and not go broke doing so. I've volunteered my equipment and ammo to folks without equipment and they always seem to go for an auto instead.

You can buy a semi-auto production setup much cheaper and all the movies use bottom feeders so the incoming crowd is terribly biased.

Do you agree that the 6 shots will then be obsolete? If not, could you please explain how the stages could break down to give benefit to keeping major?

Heading to Barnes and Noble to pick up another copy of A Catcher in the Rye....

[caswellranch2013]

Just my 2 cents, most people that have 6 shot 38spl speedloader fed guns feel behind the curve when running against a moonclip 625, this is what led to the split in IDPA and would have been fine but for the PF change ( they do not compete against each other so why), if PF had stayed at 125 for both I feel we would have more shooters in revolver (more so in ESR). The same reason that many do not shoot 38spl speedloader fed 686/19/GP etc in USPSA, if the division gave a place to play with both but not against each other it may lead to more shooters (may), PF should be based on what box you check no matter what you shoot, if you shoot SS etc you can shoot MIN/MAJ. If it's moonclip who cares 6 shot-8 shot maj-min both have pros and cons.

[Dragon11]

At this point,, if I was just wishing, my ideal solution would be for USPSA to acquire ICORE like they did Steel Challenge. Then spin it off into a separate game called USPSARevolve, and have 4 divisions

Classic: 6 shot no moonclips

Limited 6: 6 shot clips

Limited 8: 8 shot clips

Open : comps, optics, whatever.

If we're just wishin'....

DanO

Please No! Oh please NO! Leave ICORE alone. It is perfect just the way it is. USPSA just needs a little tweak in revolver division and they will see the division grow. Might loose 30-40% of the 625 guy to bottom feeder divisions out of protest, but I believe they will pick up 60% more 8 minor competitors.

Note: I say competitors cause shooting one of those automatic bottom feeders is what participants do. lol

Call me slow, or even accuse me of being a guy whose walking in circles and can't figure out how to stop, but where exactly do you get the numbers of a 60% increase with 8 minor competitors. I'm not saying I can prove you wrong, but where I live in Ohio we don't even have an ICORE club, and the closest one I know of is in Indiana which is a two and a half hour drive for me.

I hope that your right with this, because the idea of loosing 30 to 40% of the current revo guys sounds down right depressing....I'd have to go to Arbys and hope I'd find them at a roast beef sale.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Dragon11

[pskys2]

I like the idea of 6major 8minor & drop the P.F. for major. 95% of the time I shoot revolver , so whatever is deceided, I'll still be shooting the revolver. What does DVC mean? Pete

FWIW

Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas = Latin for Accuracy, Power, Speed the equation Jeff Cooper came up with to balance out real world results of self defense ammo.

Any one without the other 2 are useless at worst and severe handicaps at best.