New Division Production Optic

[grapemeister]

It may be another 10-15 years, but I think there is a pretty good chance we'll have a production optics division. You don't see it much at the range but the small Burris type optics on production guns are catching on very slowly. I think that's why the folks at Smith & Wesson have put out an optics ready M&P.

Mark my words, the small optics on production guns will be very common one day. I can see a larger law enforcement agency going to them within the next few years and once that happens I think the civilian market will really take off. When or if there is enough demand by the membership, a new division will be created.

[h4444]

Does anyone remember the long and drawn out process to get the singlestack division? And in my opinion there was a much stronger case for SS.

[Gary Stevens]

I would love to see a new division ( Production Optic's ). A slide mounted optic on a production gun would give the people that's starting out or for us that our vision isn't as good as it use to be the opportunity to use a red dot without the committing completely into full open race setup. Having shot the M&P and a Glock with slide mounted optic's no other mods and I can say it was fun and we were using lead bullets shooting minor out of std kydex holster we have several people at our club have already made the switch they said they will shoot with the open guys till the new division is implemented even though they are at a big equipment disadvantage against full open race setup. Mark,

Just for conversation, couldn't the same argument be made for L, L-10, SS, and Revolver and wouldn't they have the same validity?

[mark carr]

Stir Stir Stir This division is coming you stick in muds stand back and watch

[BritinUSA]

As someone said earlier; this is Modified division. Everything had to fit in a box Major was .40 and above, anything else was Minor. You could get more rounds in 9mm but scored lower just like SingleStack.

I think you could make a stronger case for Modified than you could for Production Optics as it opens the door for a wider variety of gun-types.

[Sarge]

Can't see? Get glasses. Don't want to get glasses? Get an optic and shoot open. Don't want to spend a ton of money on an open gun? Get glasses and shoot Production. Don't want to shoot production with glasses? Buy an open gun.

Leave the damn divisions alone. There is a division for just about everything out there already.

lololol

[mark carr]

Sarge I think that he has the right avatar . I guess thats blunt enough and to the point. lol

[bigfish]

They do make threaded barrels and comps for m&ps pretty cheap compared to the cost of playing this sport. It would make you fairly competitive in open. There is a classification system in place for a reason.

Another division would just dilute the competition. If production optics would catch on and good shooters would start shooting it, turning it into a division that you aren't good enough to be competitive in than what? Start crying for limited optics so you don't have to compete against the best guys?

That being said limited optics would make more sense. How do you enforce the plus/minus 2oz when you have people machining weight off to add a base plate and adding weight with an optic? Not long until someone figures out how to lighten the slides and refinish them in a way that would make you think its just another production gun with an optic on it since we cant enforce weight very well. We cant have a division for one gun from manufacture.

[mark carr]

Hey a guys got to stir the pot every once in while you never know maybe a good idea will pop up and as far as coming up with appropriate rules I don't think that would be a problem we have a great bunch of guys at the USPSA that could figure that out in no time.

[JakeMartens]

Hey a guys got to stir the pot every once in while you never know maybe a good idea will pop up and as far as coming up with appropriate rules I don't think that would be a problem we have a great bunch of guys at the USPSA that could figure that out in no time.

Ah yes.....

This is what I want, but please someone else go make it happen for me

[mark carr]

Give me a break they have the weights of the guns that would be so hard getting the weights of the optics what a d.. ....

[a.roberts]

Hey a guys got to stir the pot every once in while you never know maybe a good idea will pop up and as far as coming up with appropriate rules I don't think that would be a problem we have a great bunch of guys at the USPSA that could figure that out in no time.

Ah yes.....

This is what I want, but please someone else go make it happen for me

Yep!

OP, if you want the division so bad, why don't you draft a set of rules to govern what may be used in it?

For inspiration, look at Appendix D in the USPSA rulebook. Also, take a look at the Production Gun list. Then, compile a chart of all micro "slide-ride" red dots ever made, being sure to include their weights. Now make another chart that includes all possible combinations of guns and micro optics.

[Chuck D]

It may be another 10-15 years, but I think there is a pretty good chance we'll have a production optics division. You don't see it much at the range but the small Burris type optics on production guns are catching on very slowly. I think that's why the folks at Smith & Wesson have put out an optics ready M&P.

Mark my words, the small optics on production guns will be very common one day. I can see a larger law enforcement agency going to them within the next few years and once that happens I think the civilian market will really take off. When or if there is enough demand by the membership, a new division will be created.

I've been an LE Firearms Instructor for over 10 years. No one in my neck of the woods has even suggested slide mounted optics (or any optics period) on a duty gun. In fact, they're dead set against anything other than standard night sights on a duty pistol because of a real or perceived chance of sight/component failure and the fact that they are more fragile than iron sights.

The S&W Core pistol is a "gimmick" pistol in the eyes of my fellow instructors so please excuse me if I don't mark your words because I know better...from 1st hand experience.

No disrespect intended.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Chuck D

[bigfish]

While we are talking about allowing open division enhancements in a production division can we start "Production Compensated" division? I'm sure there are people that would love to use their compensated Glocks in a non-open division.

The point is we need to draw the line somewhere and until a optic is pretty much standard on all factory handguns I don't see any point in adding a new division.

[grapemeister]

It may be another 10-15 years, but I think there is a pretty good chance we'll have a production optics division. You don't see it much at the range but the small Burris type optics on production guns are catching on very slowly. I think that's why the folks at Smith & Wesson have put out an optics ready M&P.

Mark my words, the small optics on production guns will be very common one day. I can see a larger law enforcement agency going to them within the next few years and once that happens I think the civilian market will really take off. When or if there is enough demand by the membership, a new division will be created.

I've been an LE Firearms Instructor for over 10 years. No one in my neck of the woods has even suggested slide mounted optics (or any optics period) on a duty gun. In fact, they're dead set against anything other than standard night sights on a duty pistol because of a real or perceived chance of sight/component failure and the fact that they are more fragile than iron sights.

The S&W Core pistol is a "gimmick" pistol in the eyes of my fellow instructors so please excuse me if I don't mark your words because I know better...from 1st hand experience.

No disrespect intended.

None taken. I'm just old enough to remember when a good many folks in law enforcement were against semi-autos. By the way, a revolver was the 1st gun I qualified with as a Police Officer.

(Edited)

I'm not saying it will happen (no matter what), and I think they've (Burris type optics on duty guns)yet to be proven to a certain extent. But, many years back when I was carrying an M16 in the army, I didn't imagine in my wildest dreams anything like an M4 with optics, range finders, lasers, and good lord knows what else they're attaching to them these days. (Back then I would have considered red dots a gimmick, but it happened!)

I'm not saying you don't have an imagination, but just look at attitudes of the past compared to where we are today.

By the way, the OP, and myself, are not talking about anything like the old Modified division of IPSC or the current Open division. The idea is strictly a production gun with the current limitations, except for a slide mounted red dot in the same place or very near the rear sight.

It's way too soon to consider a new division, and I'm not saying that I would be for or against it,but I hope folks keep an open mind, and maybe take a little peak into the future.

Edited July 7, 2013 by grapemeister

[Steve RA]

I still think allowing slide mounted optics for Senior and Super Senior would be a good idea. After all, Senior and Super Senior was started by USPSA to help keep older shooters in the sport. It isn't a division so would not add any more bookeeping, other than adding s/optic or ss/optic. They would be allowed in any division but could only be slide mounted and the rest of the gun would have to conform to the rules for that division.

Let the fireworks begin.

[GrumpyOne]

I still think allowing slide mounted optics for Senior and Super Senior would be a good idea. After all, Senior and Super Senior was started by USPSA to help keep older shooters in the sport. It isn't a division so would not add any more bookeeping, other than adding s/optic or ss/optic. They would be allowed in any division but could only be slide mounted and the rest of the gun would have to conform to the rules for that division.

Let the fireworks begin.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=177519#entry1961588

[Chuck Anderson]

It may be another 10-15 years, but I think there is a pretty good chance we'll have a production optics division. You don't see it much at the range but the small Burris type optics on production guns are catching on very slowly. I think that's why the folks at Smith & Wesson have put out an optics ready M&P.

Mark my words, the small optics on production guns will be very common one day. I can see a larger law enforcement agency going to them within the next few years and once that happens I think the civilian market will really take off. When or if there is enough demand by the membership, a new division will be created.

I've been an LE Firearms Instructor for over 10 years. No one in my neck of the woods has even suggested slide mounted optics (or any optics period) on a duty gun. In fact, they're dead set against anything other than standard night sights on a duty pistol because of a real or perceived chance of sight/component failure and the fact that they are more fragile than iron sights.

The S&W Core pistol is a "gimmick" pistol in the eyes of my fellow instructors so please excuse me if I don't mark your words because I know better...from 1st hand experience.

No disrespect intended.

Yeah, I wouldn't guarantee you speak for all Law Enforcement. We've kicked the idea around. Not for anything real soon but looking down the road. They get a bit more durable and with the capability of having backup iron sights I can see some value. Lights, lasers, red dots on rifles and shotguns. All stuff that 20-30 years ago (or this year for some agencies) laughed about with derision. I'm not saying I will be bolting one on to my Glock any time soon. But it's a possibility.

That said I'm not in favor of splitting up the divisions any further.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Chuck Anderson

[ima45dv8]

I'm not in favor of slide-mounted optics in Production today, but I do see that they may well be allowed in the future based on common and general usage.

A few of us are permitted to carry firearms at work, and have access to all current technologies. One of my associates who is young and is naturally afforded excellent eyesight, and is an excellent shot-at-speed in competition with iron sights, chooses to carry a pistol with slide-mounted optics as a "work gun". His arguments are solid and I don't have a problem with them.

I'm not in favor of creating a new or revised division to accommodate them, but I see it coming down the road.

===============

ETA: Seems Chuck beat me to many of my points.

[Lifeislarge]

It's not like the USPSA is against evolving the equipment rules. Just this year they allowed gas pedals (thumb rests) on Limited guns. I can't wait for them to allow tracking beams and auto aim so I just have to pull the trigger to hit alphas.

[sperman]

I'm not in favor of creating a new or revised division to accommodate them, but I see it coming down the road.

.

I agree with Mark, but I get really tired of hearing the argument "there's a division for that. It's called open."

There is a huge difference in a gun that meets all of the other production rules, but has a slide mounted optic, and a fully functioning open gun. The gun alone is 3x - 4x more expensive. Brass is probably in that same range. Mags are at least twice as expensive. (Modified might have been even more expensive.)

[Chuck Anderson]

I'm not in favor of creating a new or revised division to accommodate them, but I see it coming down the road.

.

I agree with Mark, but I get really tired of hearing the argument "there's a division for that. It's called open."

There is a huge difference in a gun that meets all of the other production rules, but has a slide mounted optic, and a fully functioning open gun. The gun alone is 3x - 4x more expensive. Brass is probably in that same range. Mags are at least twice as expensive. (Modified might have been even more expensive.)

I've seen Production guns every bit as expensive as the entry level Open gun market. By the time you add aftermarket barrels, triggers, stippling, etc. I can rack the price up on a Production gun very quickly. Not to mention if I just start expensive. Is there that much difference between a Sphinx with a dot melted into the slide and a Glock 17 based Open gun that several local guys shoot? Sure the best open gun is better than the best Production Optics gun could be. Sure it's significantly more expensive. But that doesn't represent Open entirely. I see lots of people, normally at the local level, shooting with guns in Open that I wouldn't consider competitive. We've got a local guy that shoots a .357 Sig Glock in Open (why I don't know) and another that has been running a Glock 35 with a slide ride dot. He made master in Open with it. Other than the Dot it would be just fine in Production now.

Just a thought, but rather than add Production Optics, why not add Open Lite.( or whatever name). Limited round count, minor only. If you want to use a CORE, fine. If you want to use a Steel Challenge gun, either single stack or just lightened to the point it's not really good with Major load, go for it. Factory ammo could be used easily instead of having to load. Magazines would be cheaper because you wouldn't need to buy the 35 round uber mag (crap, I wasn't supposed to talk about that in public). You could get in a lot cheaper than buying a full open gun, have your optics for bad eyes and the recoil and noise would be less than a full open gun as well. Works for seniors, juniors and heck the more I write the more I like it. Still not enough to carve up the divisions any more though.

[Nik Habicht]

I'm not in favor of creating a new or revised division to accommodate them, but I see it coming down the road.

.

I agree with Mark, but I get really tired of hearing the argument "there's a division for that. It's called open."

There is a huge difference in a gun that meets all of the other production rules, but has a slide mounted optic, and a fully functioning open gun. The gun alone is 3x - 4x more expensive. Brass is probably in that same range. Mags are at least twice as expensive. (Modified might have been even more expensive.)

I like to shoot a Glock 19 that's equipped with a laser and flashlight in a USPSA match occasionally -- but I'm not asking USPSA to create a division for that, because it's non competitive with Open blasters....

Instead, I shoot it where it fits. I know it's not the ideal equipment for the division, but it's my choice to shoot that particular run rather than a blaster specifically built for the division....

The game isn't broken. I could choose differently.....

[AWLAZS]

It may be another 10-15 years, but I think there is a pretty good chance we'll have a production optics division. You don't see it much at the range but the small Burris type optics on production guns are catching on very slowly. I think that's why the folks at Smith & Wesson have put out an optics ready M&P.

Mark my words, the small optics on production guns will be very common one day. I can see a larger law enforcement agency going to them within the next few years and once that happens I think the civilian market will really take off. When or if there is enough demand by the membership, a new division will be created.

I've been an LE Firearms Instructor for over 10 years. No one in my neck of the woods has even suggested slide mounted optics (or any optics period) on a duty gun. In fact, they're dead set against anything other than standard night sights on a duty pistol because of a real or perceived chance of sight/component failure and the fact that they are more fragile than iron sights.

The S&W Core pistol is a "gimmick" pistol in the eyes of my fellow instructors so please excuse me if I don't mark your words because I know better...from 1st hand experience.

No disrespect intended.

But an AR with a red dot and BUIS is cool

Edited July 7, 2013 by AWLAZS

[Cavy]

At 59 I tried shooting limited but found I could not see the sights well enough. Even with glasses to see the sights I found it to be very difficult. So I went back to shooting open class. I am not looking to win matches I just enjoy shooting and want to feel like I did the best I could. The challenge is doing the best you can with what you have to work with. We don't need another division. What would be next? Separate divisions for guns with 2 or 3 port comps or polymer frames vs steel?

Shoot what you have in whatever division it fits and do the best you personally can. If you want to win save your money and get a division specific pistol and practice practice practice!