New Division Production Optic

[bikerburgess]

Modified makes some sense, but why would it work here when it already failed for IPSC?

Modified is the exact opposite of what is being discussed here.

Take an open gun, that is already complicated and expensive. Now make it more of both by making it fit in a box.

Take a production gun that is relatively simple and inexpensive, and add an optic.

The only thing these two guns have in common is an optic.

Yes, we production shooters can and do spend a bunch of money on our guns (he says while looking at his $1300 shadow from CZ Custom) but it isn't necessary to be competitive in the division. My guess is the Production National Champion has won with a fairly stock gun since the division was created. When is the last time Open was won with a Glock and a slide ride optic? (Or any gun that cost less than $3k.)

Well under $3k. Last year I believe the Tanfoglio gold Eric in 38super are just over $2k on gunnroker right now but were about $1600 then

[z40acp]

Limited 10 optics. Single stack, Production gun or Limited gun, put a slide ride optic on and use 10 round mags. Everything scored minor except 8 shot Revolvers can try for major.

Edited July 10, 2013 by z40acp

[Chuck D]

It may be another 10-15 years, but I think there is a pretty good chance we'll have a production optics division. You don't see it much at the range but the small Burris type optics on production guns are catching on very slowly. I think that's why the folks at Smith & Wesson have put out an optics ready M&P.

Mark my words, the small optics on production guns will be very common one day. I can see a larger law enforcement agency going to them within the next few years and once that happens I think the civilian market will really take off. When or if there is enough demand by the membership, a new division will be created.

I've been an LE Firearms Instructor for over 10 years. No one in my neck of the woods has even suggested slide mounted optics (or any optics period) on a duty gun. In fact, they're dead set against anything other than standard night sights on a duty pistol because of a real or perceived chance of sight/component failure and the fact that they are more fragile than iron sights.

The S&W Core pistol is a "gimmick" pistol in the eyes of my fellow instructors so please excuse me if I don't mark your words because I know better...from 1st hand experience.

No disrespect intended.

Just pistols? My agency (300 officers) is in the midst of mounting optics on rifles after extensive testing showed they were much faster and more accurate under stress. Pistols might be different, but that would be pretty counterintuitive.

My experience with firearms instructors is that many of them are crotchety old guys that are VERY resistant to change.

Rifles are a completely different story. They don't ride your hip and every optic I've ever seen mounted on a patrol rifle is a larger and stronger unit then those that would be utilized on a duty pistol.

and we're not all "old and crotchety" either...lol.

[mike g35]

I agree with the majority of the shooters here. There's no need for this division. I like the set up but it's a handgun with a red dot optic and that to me is an open gun. Isnt that exactly what the first open guns were before the advent of comps, magwells, etc? If you want to shoot this setup then by all means shoot it, but I cannot see justifying a whole new division just to make it easier for a small number of competitors to shoot "their style gun" in "their division". Plus, we already have enough divisions that new shooters sometimes become confused about the rules, they buy the wrong gear, get put in a division other than what they anticipated and then end up with a sour taste left in their mouths questioning whether this is for them. The more convoluted we make the rules of our sport less new shooters will want to become a part of it. Keep it simple.

[MarkCO]

The more convoluted we make the rules of our sport less new shooters will want to become a part of it. Keep it simple.

[sfinney]

I remember when they split everythig into Open and Limited. to encourage iron sight shooters to show up. Then they added Production to encourage non-1911 platform shooters to show up. Then they added Singlestack to encouage non-hicap 1911 shooters to show up. I'm not sure we need any more divisions to draw attendance, we just need to pick a gun and shoot.

Want a red dot? Shoot open. Seems simple to me.

[Chuck Anderson]

It may be another 10-15 years, but I think there is a pretty good chance we'll have a production optics division. You don't see it much at the range but the small Burris type optics on production guns are catching on very slowly. I think that's why the folks at Smith & Wesson have put out an optics ready M&P.

Mark my words, the small optics on production guns will be very common one day. I can see a larger law enforcement agency going to them within the next few years and once that happens I think the civilian market will really take off. When or if there is enough demand by the membership, a new division will be created.

I've been an LE Firearms Instructor for over 10 years. No one in my neck of the woods has even suggested slide mounted optics (or any optics period) on a duty gun. In fact, they're dead set against anything other than standard night sights on a duty pistol because of a real or perceived chance of sight/component failure and the fact that they are more fragile than iron sights.

The S&W Core pistol is a "gimmick" pistol in the eyes of my fellow instructors so please excuse me if I don't mark your words because I know better...from 1st hand experience.

No disrespect intended.

Just pistols? My agency (300 officers) is in the midst of mounting optics on rifles after extensive testing showed they were much faster and more accurate under stress. Pistols might be different, but that would be pretty counterintuitive.

My experience with firearms instructors is that many of them are crotchety old guys that are VERY resistant to change.

Rifles are a completely different story. They don't ride your hip and every optic I've ever seen mounted on a patrol rifle is a larger and stronger unit then those that would be utilized on a duty pistol.

and we're not all "old and crotchety" either...lol.

Nope, rifles get bounced around in the trunk or in locking racks with crap hitting them all day. The worst looking police guns I've seen are long guns.

And I've seen plenty with micro red dots mounted. The exact same ones that would go on a pistol. I know one large holster manufacturer is working on duty holsters for red dot mounted pistols.

Considering the rapid evolution in red dot sights over the last 10-15 years I'd be very surprised if there weren't electronic sights mounted on a decent number of duty guns by the time I retire. And certainly some CHL carry guns.

[Dragon11]

It may be another 10-15 years, but I think there is a pretty good chance we'll have a production optics division. You don't see it much at the range but the small Burris type optics on production guns are catching on very slowly. I think that's why the folks at Smith & Wesson have put out an optics ready M&P.

Mark my words, the small optics on production guns will be very common one day. I can see a larger law enforcement agency going to them within the next few years and once that happens I think the civilian market will really take off. When or if there is enough demand by the membership, a new division will be created.

I've been an LE Firearms Instructor for over 10 years. No one in my neck of the woods has even suggested slide mounted optics (or any optics period) on a duty gun. In fact, they're dead set against anything other than standard night sights on a duty pistol because of a real or perceived chance of sight/component failure and the fact that they are more fragile than iron sights.

The S&W Core pistol is a "gimmick" pistol in the eyes of my fellow instructors so please excuse me if I don't mark your words because I know better...from 1st hand experience.

No disrespect intended.

Just pistols? My agency (300 officers) is in the midst of mounting optics on rifles after extensive testing showed they were much faster and more accurate under stress. Pistols might be different, but that would be pretty counterintuitive.

My experience with firearms instructors is that many of them are crotchety old guys that are VERY resistant to change.

Rifles are a completely different story. They don't ride your hip and every optic I've ever seen mounted on a patrol rifle is a larger and stronger unit then those that would be utilized on a duty pistol.

and we're not all "old and crotchety" either...lol.

Nope, rifles get bounced around in the trunk or in locking racks with crap hitting them all day. The worst looking police guns I've seen are long guns.

And I've seen plenty with micro red dots mounted. The exact same ones that would go on a pistol. I know one large holster manufacturer is working on duty holsters for red dot mounted pistols.

Considering the rapid evolution in red dot sights over the last 10-15 years I'd be very surprised if there weren't electronic sights mounted on a decent number of duty guns by the time I retire. And certainly some CHL carry guns.

A friend of mine who works at a city PD outside of Dayton, OH already has a dot mounted on his carry Sig 226 FWIW.

[sfinney]

My father inlaw who just retired as a Lt in the Dallas Sheriff's Dept had a J-Point on his duty G19 for years.

He shot some competition also, but mostly steel.

[Chuck D]

It may be another 10-15 years, but I think there is a pretty good chance we'll have a production optics division. You don't see it much at the range but the small Burris type optics on production guns are catching on very slowly. I think that's why the folks at Smith & Wesson have put out an optics ready M&P.

Mark my words, the small optics on production guns will be very common one day. I can see a larger law enforcement agency going to them within the next few years and once that happens I think the civilian market will really take off. When or if there is enough demand by the membership, a new division will be created.

I've been an LE Firearms Instructor for over 10 years. No one in my neck of the woods has even suggested slide mounted optics (or any optics period) on a duty gun. In fact, they're dead set against anything other than standard night sights on a duty pistol because of a real or perceived chance of sight/component failure and the fact that they are more fragile than iron sights.

The S&W Core pistol is a "gimmick" pistol in the eyes of my fellow instructors so please excuse me if I don't mark your words because I know better...from 1st hand experience.

No disrespect intended.

Just pistols? My agency (300 officers) is in the midst of mounting optics on rifles after extensive testing showed they were much faster and more accurate under stress. Pistols might be different, but that would be pretty counterintuitive.

My experience with firearms instructors is that many of them are crotchety old guys that are VERY resistant to change.

Rifles are a completely different story. They don't ride your hip and every optic I've ever seen mounted on a patrol rifle is a larger and stronger unit then those that would be utilized on a duty pistol.

and we're not all "old and crotchety" either...lol.

Nope, rifles get bounced around in the trunk or in locking racks with crap hitting them all day. The worst looking police guns I've seen are long guns.

And I've seen plenty with micro red dots mounted. The exact same ones that would go on a pistol. I know one large holster manufacturer is working on duty holsters for red dot mounted pistols.

Considering the rapid evolution in red dot sights over the last 10-15 years I'd be very surprised if there weren't electronic sights mounted on a decent number of duty guns by the time I retire. And certainly some CHL carry guns.

Patrol rifles in my neck of the woods are mounted on a rack between the seats where they should be in my opinion. The only optics mounted on patrol rifles for the City PD, County Sheriffs Dept, or the 11 Town and Village Depts are EoTech's or Aimpoints. It's obvious we are at polar opposites of the LE spectrum.

Regardless....we are WAY off from the day that microdots are seen in any significant number on duty pistols in my opinion. Using what MIGHT occur 10-15 years down the road if ever to justify the creation of a new division is a "reach."

Production Optics Division is a dead issue. I certainly wouldn't object it being afforded "category" status if there was enough participation to warrant the change.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Chuck D

[JGus]

I agree with the majority of the shooters here. There's no need for this division. I like the set up but it's a handgun with a red dot optic and that to me is an open gun. Isnt that exactly what the first open guns were before the advent of comps, magwells, etc? If you want to shoot this setup then by all means shoot it, but I cannot see justifying a whole new division just to make it easier for a small number of competitors to shoot "their style gun" in "their division". Plus, we already have enough divisions that new shooters sometimes become confused about the rules, they buy the wrong gear, get put in a division other than what they anticipated and then end up with a sour taste left in their mouths questioning whether this is for them. The more convoluted we make the rules of our sport less new shooters will want to become a part of it. Keep it simple.

No "need" for this division? If you really want to push the issue, is there really a "need" for any division but one? Get a pistol, go shoot it against other people that have a pistol. Shooters didn't "need" other USPSA divisions, they "wanted" other divisions for the sport to progress.

And we don't know that a new division would have just a "small number of competitors" until feedback was requested and trial stages were run.

I don't see the big deal about creating more divisions if there would be shooters wanting to participate in it. You create any new division and I bet it will have just as many shooters at the local club level as L10.

I personally won't ever shoot Open because I don't like optics mounted on pistols. At the same time I wouldn't want it removed as a division because a lot of people love shooting pistols with optics mounted and it brings a lot more shooters into the fold. So if another division or two gets added over time, you simply have the choice not to participate in that division. I don't see any problem with adding a few new divisions, only see a problem with removing divisions.

[mark carr]

Hey Mark CO simple ? production legal guns--rules-- scoring-- + slide mounted optic's how much simpler can it be. Mark,

[Steve RA]

MikeG35 - actually, comps and mag wells came quite a while before optics in USPSA/IPSC.

I still think allowing Seniors and Super Seniors - or possibly only Super Seniors - to use a slide mounted optic would encourage a lot of older shooters to continue shooting in competition. Someone saying "what about the younger shooters with bad vision" can be answered by pointing out that there are many things in life that you have to wait to a certain age for participation (legally) and this can be considered just another one.

Also, it would not be another division.

[MarkCO]

Hey Mark CO simple ? production legal guns--rules-- scoring-- + slide mounted optic's how much simpler can it be. Mark,

Yes, simple. Another division complicates things in many ways. I have had new shooters show up with slide mounted optics on 9mms...they shot in Open and had a blast. An equipment advantage for a class of people in a division...I would never be in favor of that.

[sperman]

I'm seriously considering putting a slide ride on my CZ just for the fun of it. If nothing else I'll get the education of shooting an optic without spending $4k on an open 2011.

[MGMorden]

MikeG35 - actually, comps and mag wells came quite a while before optics in USPSA/IPSC.

I still think allowing Seniors and Super Seniors - or possibly only Super Seniors - to use a slide mounted optic would encourage a lot of older shooters to continue shooting in competition. Someone saying "what about the younger shooters with bad vision" can be answered by pointing out that there are many things in life that you have to wait to a certain age for participation (legally) and this can be considered just another one.

Also, it would not be another division.

I really, REALLY dislike this idea. Just because one is older they'd get a major advantage in scoring. Not everyone who gets to Senior or even Super Senior status is somehow disabled. Jerry Miculek is a Super Senior - how many here honestly could beat him? Precious few regardless of how young they might be. Now if he's doing that as is, can you imagine the advantage he or similarly skilled seniors would get by shooting optics in the same division as other people who are forced to use irons?

Regardless of age, gender, or any other factor, one should not get any preferential treatment when it comes to division equipment.

[Steve RA]

They would only be competing against other Seniors or Super Seniors, not others from a scoring standpoint.

[MGMorden]

They would only be competing against other Seniors or Super Seniors, not others from a scoring standpoint.

That's not the way categories work. People in each division are only competing against each other (for the most part as are people within the same class), but the various categories (Junior, Lady, Senior, Super Senior, etc) are still competing against everyone else as well, not separately. They simply may receive additional recognition for achievements within the category.

If you put an optic on a Super Senior's Production gun and he wins the match, then he wins the match - not just a Senior subdivision of it. Retooling the whole sport so that categories are completely separated would require a lot of work (aside from ticking off a lot of people that likely don't want to be segregated), not to mention if you did this just for Seniors using optics on Production guns and you create completely separate scoring, then what you've effectively done is gone ahead and created the "Production Optics" division with its participation limited to only Seniors.

Realistically I just don't see this as beneficial (the division or this senior idea). We don't need to continue to spread our shooters thinner and thinner into more divisions. We already have some like Revolver and Limited-10 that are barely getting any attendance as is. We can't accommodate every popular type of pistol used for carry - nor should we try. Subcompact .380's, J-frame revolvers, etc all far outnumber optics usage in real life usage and are quite popular, but we still aren't rushing to create new rules and divisions to accommodate them.

[MarkCO]

Subcompact .380's, J-frame revolvers, etc all far outnumber optics usage in real life usage and are quite popular, but we still aren't rushing to create new rules and divisions to accommodate them.

Pocket gun division rules...pick 5 targets and shoot at them, throw empty 6 ounce gun at a 6th target, scream for a friend to finish the course for you...that might be fun.

[ChuckS]

They would only be competing against other Seniors or Super Seniors, not others from a scoring standpoint.

We compete by division but even so, remember TGO is getting up there.

[JGus]

MikeG35 - actually, comps and mag wells came quite a while before optics in USPSA/IPSC.

I still think allowing Seniors and Super Seniors - or possibly only Super Seniors - to use a slide mounted optic would encourage a lot of older shooters to continue shooting in competition. Someone saying "what about the younger shooters with bad vision" can be answered by pointing out that there are many things in life that you have to wait to a certain age for participation (legally) and this can be considered just another one.

Also, it would not be another division.

I really, REALLY dislike this idea. Just because one is older they'd get a major advantage in scoring. Not everyone who gets to Senior or even Super Senior status is somehow disabled. Jerry Miculek is a Super Senior - how many here honestly could beat him? Precious few regardless of how young they might be. Now if he's doing that as is, can you imagine the advantage he or similarly skilled seniors would get by shooting optics in the same division as other people who are forced to use irons?

Regardless of age, gender, or any other factor, one should not get any preferential treatment when it comes to division equipment.

Yeah, I also agree. I don't see an issue about creating another division or two, but the division should be based on the gun and accessories allowed or not allowed, and not based on age. There are 60 and 70 year old's beating me without the advantage of optics!

[Chris iliff]

Limited 10 optics. Single stack, Production gun or Limited gun, put a slide ride optic on and use 10 round mags. Everything scored minor except 8 shot Revolvers can try for major.

I actually like that. Limited 10 Optic. I would limit the choices to any current SS or legal Production gun with an Optic.

Hell, put an age requirement on it........50 or older, no joking.

What's the big deal? Sounds good to me. Hope they do it!

Edited July 16, 2013 by Chris iliff

[Nik Habicht]

They would only be competing against other Seniors or Super Seniors, not others from a scoring standpoint.

So as high senior, you'd turn down the class or division win,and the associated cash/early trip to the prize table? I wasn't really first in Production, I was high senior; the guy in second place is the class winner?

Don't think that would work....

[shtr3]

All of this back and forth, criticism, justification, and everything else on the this topic is absolutely great. IMHO, no extra division at the time, make outlaw matches, show the people that need to see this, that there is a need and go from there.

[Steve RA]

For some of the folks who don't want any more divisions, many of us on here - and not on the forum - started when there weren't any "divisions". Suppose from that point on everyone fought against anything new, think where it would be now.