Time Allowed?

[Rambo]

Recently I watched one of the top shooters prepare to shoot a stage. Even though the stage was completely reset and the ROs ready they preceded to do another full walk through of the stage. The make ready command was given and then shooter proceeded to do 3+ practice draws... A couple practice shoots (draw and engage the first visible targets...in this case 4)... They finally loaded their gun and holstered... Then air gunned the entire stage again from the start... Practiced the start position to gun maneuver a couple more times and then finally allowed the RO to give the are you ready command (RO had already tried twice).

Are there any rules pertaining to this? IMHO this seems unfair as it seems unlikely the ROs would be as patient if the shooter had not been famous... An unknown 'C' class shooter should get the same opportunities as a famous GM....

[jdphotoguy]

A few rules come to mind about the additional walkthrough

3.2.4 After the written stage briefing has been read to competitors, and questions

arising there from have been answered, competitors should be permitted

to conduct an orderly inspection ("walkthrough") of the course

of fire. The duration of time for the inspection must be stipulated by the

Range Officer, and it should be the same for all competitors

8.7.3 No person is permitted to enter or move through a course of fire without

the prior approval of a Range Officer assigned to that course of fire

or the Range Master

I don't see anything about how long a competitor has to "Make Ready"

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of

Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor

must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range

Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance

with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume

the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

8.3.1.1 Once the "Make Ready" command has been given, the competitor

must not move away from the start location prior to issuance

of the "Start Signal" without the prior approval, and under the

direct supervision, of the Range Officer.

Super star or not, the RO should treat all competitors the same, obviously that was not the case here.

Edited April 30, 2012 by jdphotoguy

[tackdr1ver]

I believe it's 5 mins per the rule book. Although I could be mistaken.

[remoandiris]

it seems unlikely the ROs would be as patient if the shooter had not been famous

Why would you think this? ROs have to treat every shooter the same. There is no room for preferential treatment. If an RO gives someone preferential treatment, the RO is at fault, not the shooter.

[jdphotoguy]

I believe it's 5 mins per the rule book. Although I could be mistaken.

I loaded up the latest rules in PDF format and searched for "time" and "minute", but could not find anything related to how long a competitor has to "Make Ready".

Edited April 30, 2012 by jdphotoguy

[moverfive]

Recently I watched one of the top shooters prepare to shoot a stage. Even though the stage was completely reset and the ROs ready they preceded to do another full walk through of the stage. The make ready command was given and then shooter proceeded to do 3+ practice draws... A couple practice shoots (draw and engage the first visible targets...in this case 4)... They finally loaded their gun and holstered... Then air gunned the entire stage again from the start... Practiced the start position to gun maneuver a couple more times and then finally allowed the RO to give the are you ready command (RO had already tried twice).

Are there any rules pertaining to this? IMHO this seems unfair as it seems unlikely the ROs would be as patient if the shooter had not been famous... An unknown 'C' class shooter should get the same opportunities as a famous GM....

And did you see where this RO treated other shooters differently? And especially treated them differently because of their classification?

I have shot many a matches where the lower classed shooters took a lot of time themselves to make ready......and I have yet to see where a RO said a word to them......much less stop them, had them show clear, and then tell them to go away until they can make ready in less than 30 seconds. Have never seen it.

[spanky]

You won't find a rule on time limit for make ready because there isn't one. Did the RO actually stop lower classed/unknown competitors from taking a long time to make ready but allowed the "super star?" Or did you simply just witness the "super star" take a longer make ready? While it is annoying, I don't know that I've ever seen an RO say anything to a competitor about taking too long to make ready. And and I've seen plenty shooters view the stage one final time after the competitor before him has shot. Some ROs will ask you to come to the line, others will let you finish. It depends on the RO and not the shooter in every instance I've ever witnessed

[jdphotoguy]

I personally don't care how long it takes for a competitor to "make ready", what gets me is the part the OP mentioned about being allowed to do another walk through after the stage was reset and ready to roll. If you want another walk through, do it when you are the shooter on deck and everyone is scoring, pasting and resetting targets, not after that is all finished.

Edited April 30, 2012 by jdphotoguy

[Jim Norman]

While there is no set time limit, I believe that you could have the shooter step down and come back to the line when he or she is ready under the following:

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of

Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor

must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range

Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance

with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume

the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

I highlight the pertinent parts, but essentially the whole rule is pretty clear, I say "Make Read" You MUST, repeat MUST fit your eye an dear protection and prepare the gun, it says nothing about after you spend ten minutes (slight exaggeration here)air gunning, drawing and in particular running through the entire COF again. "Make Ready" means get your butt in gear. You just had the original walk-through and the reset time to play. Put on your big boy pants and get ready.

Now if an RO allows a 'famous shooter' all that extra time, he had darned well allow a new D shooter every bit as much play time. As ROs we are not to show favoritism to any shooters. In point of fact, I believe that we should be more accommodating of the newbie, he is still learning his way through a match, the "Famous Shooter" should already know. Usually this type of behavior is used to psych opponents and often the rest of the squad, if it is a 'Super Squad' will get on that shooters case. They are not easily psyched so all he is doing is wasting everyone's time and tying up the match. A practice draw, A load, a sight picture, especially shooting open where one needs to verify the dot is on and set at the correct brightness, no problem, check every mag twice, three draws an d4 sight pictures and a run through the COF, that is a bit much.

There is that clause about failure to follow the reasonable commands of an RO, maybe this is a place to invoke it?

[tackdr1ver]

I don't have any issues with people taking another look, getting set etc. You encounter all types in this sport, some people take longer to get ready than others. While I agree that sometimes it can be annoying when a shooter wants to take 3 years to get ready, I don't have much room to talk. Sometimes it takes me 6 or 7 looks before I can figure out how to shoot a stage(if I ever get it figured out). I try and have a plan together before I get to the line, then it's just hit play, run program time.

Also there have been times when I have had a stage somewhat figured out and something will happen or someone will say something and my concentration goes right out the window. Then it's definitely time to take another look. It's tough being mentally challenged!

[Kagemusha]

"They finally loaded their gun and holstered... Then air gunned the entire stage again from the start... Practiced the start position to gun maneuver a couple more times... "

Did he leave the start with a loaded/holstered gun and walk the stage? I thought this was a no-no regardless of what class?

[sperman]

While there is no set time limit, I believe that you could have the shooter step down and come back to the line when he or she is ready under the following:

8.3.1 "Make Ready" – This command signifies the start of "the Course of

Fire". Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor

must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range

Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance

with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume

the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

I highlight the pertinent parts, but essentially the whole rule is pretty clear, I say "Make Read" You MUST, repeat MUST fit your eye an dear protection and prepare the gun, it says nothing about after you spend ten minutes (slight exaggeration here)air gunning, drawing and in particular running through the entire COF again. "Make Ready" means get your butt in gear. You just had the original walk-through and the reset time to play. Put on your big boy pants and get ready.

Now if an RO allows a 'famous shooter' all that extra time, he had darned well allow a new D shooter every bit as much play time. As ROs we are not to show favoritism to any shooters. In point of fact, I believe that we should be more accommodating of the newbie, he is still learning his way through a match, the "Famous Shooter" should already know. Usually this type of behavior is used to psych opponents and often the rest of the squad, if it is a 'Super Squad' will get on that shooters case. They are not easily psyched so all he is doing is wasting everyone's time and tying up the match. A practice draw, A load, a sight picture, especially shooting open where one needs to verify the dot is on and set at the correct brightness, no problem, check every mag twice, three draws an d4 sight pictures and a run through the COF, that is a bit much.

There is that clause about failure to follow the reasonable commands of an RO, maybe this is a place to invoke it?

I'm pretty sure if you talk to the NROI instructors they will tell you that there is no time limit at MR. I know of a couple of national champions who have a rather protracted make ready routine. Maybe you should DQ one of them at VaMd in a couple of weeks and see how that works out for you.

[DarthMuffin]

The key point here is that per 8.3.1.1 they can't leave the start position without your OK once you give the "Make Ready" command.

While there's no time limit there's also only a limited number of things you can usefully do from the start position. Just wait for them to get their mojo together. If a guy is continually holding up a squad, hopefully his squad-mates will have a little chat with him.

I find it kind of ironic that the super squads are generally the slowest squads. Not because they don't help tape and reset (they do), but due to the long starts and walkthroughs. Maybe there's a lesson for me to learn here?

Edited April 30, 2012 by DarthMuffin

[coldchar]

It is allowed in the rules. I would point out that some of the best shooters spend the greatest amount of time to make ready. I suspect it is getting their head together for that stage. Given the level of competition at that level, I have no problem with this. For beginning shooters, I also do not have any problem. They need to definitely have their head in the game. Shooters like me, need so much basic work that it would be time wasted.

Jim

[ima45dv8]

I've seen some seriously exaggerated MR performances, but they're generally offset by the more-prevalent folks who, when given the command, are ready to rock in about 10 seconds.

On a rare occasion, I have leaned in close to a competitor and asked if maybe we could see the 'short version' of their git-ready rountine.

[Skydiver]

In Jay's RO Level I class, as I recall he advises to give the shooter time, but if it's starting to become ridiculous, he says just give the "Unload and Show Clear" set of commands, and call up the next shooter.

[Gary Stevens]

In Jay's RO Level I class, as I recall he advises to give the shooter time, but if it's starting to become ridiculous, he says just give the "Unload and Show Clear" set of commands, and call up the next shooter.

IMO, this is not a wise move. It can backfire, if the next shooter says they are not ready, and the next and the next. Eventually you are back to the original shooter and you have to start all over again, but you have lost all that time.

[Sarge]

In Jay's RO Level I class, as I recall he advises to give the shooter time, but if it's starting to become ridiculous, he says just give the "Unload and Show Clear" set of commands, and call up the next shooter.

I don't agree with that at all. It won't gain anything and he still gets to come back and do it ALLLLLL over again, thereby wasting more time than it initially would have.

[GrumpyOne]

In Jay's RO Level I class, as I recall he advises to give the shooter time, but if it's starting to become ridiculous, he says just give the "Unload and Show Clear" set of commands, and call up the next shooter.

I don't agree with that at all. It won't gain anything and he still gets to come back and do it ALLLLLL over again, thereby wasting more time than it initially would have.

+1 I may not like it, the RO may not like it, the rest of the squad may not like it, but it is every shooters perogative to make sure they are ready for the COF, in whatever way they deem necessary....If they need to pysch themselves up, slap themselves against the head, hop around on one foot, whooping like a dodo bird, it's their thing, let them do it, within a reasonable time frame, that is....

Me, I'm never ready, so it usually takes me all of say, 15 seconds after Make ready to say shooter ready....Doesn't matter how much time I spend, ain't gonna get any better, once I step in that box or position.

Plan? I don't need no stinking Plan!

[Chris Keen]

In Jay's RO Level I class, as I recall he advises to give the shooter time, but if it's starting to become ridiculous, he says just give the "Unload and Show Clear" set of commands, and call up the next shooter.

I don't agree with that at all. It won't gain anything and he still gets to come back and do it ALLLLLL over again, thereby wasting more time than it initially would have.

+1 I may not like it, the RO may not like it, the rest of the squad may not like it, but it is every shooters perogative to make sure they are ready for the COF, in whatever way they deem necessary....If they need to pysch themselves up, slap themselves against the head, hop around on one foot, whooping like a dodo bird, it's their thing, let them do it, within a reasonable time frame, that is....

Me, I'm never ready, so it usually takes me all of say, 15 seconds after Make ready to say shooter ready....Doesn't matter how much time I spend, ain't gonna get any better, once I step in that box or position.

Plan? I don't need no stinking Plan!

I hear you on that one.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Chris Keen

[Skydiver]

My plans usually disappear when the buzzer goes off...

[Jim Norman]

I'm pretty sure if you talk to the NROI instructors they will tell you that there is no time limit at MR. I know of a couple of national champions who have a rather protracted make ready routine. Maybe you should DQ one of them at VaMd in a couple of weeks and see how that works out for you.

Not sure how I would go about that seeing as I am not an RO at the VAMD.

However, If he leaves the start position without asking he is in violation and again the rule does say MUST not SHOULD.

In other words, maybe we need to come to the line READY TO SHOOT. If you are not ready, maybe you need to stand down and let someone else go ahead of you.

[jdphotoguy]

In Jay's RO Level I class, as I recall he advises to give the shooter time, but if it's starting to become ridiculous, he says just give the "Unload and Show Clear" set of commands, and call up the next shooter.

The reason I don't like that way of handling it is it screws over the next competitor, now his/her time to prep while on deck is cut short and the dude causing the problem is generally not affected.

[The Antichrome]

Let 'em have their time. If they leave the start area, use the STOP command.

If their routine is extremely looong, throw an "Are You Ready?" in there, and do it again if needed, until they get a clue.

I myself, take my time at MR, but I dont waste time at MR.

[Ben Stoeger]

Recently I watched one of the top shooters prepare to shoot a stage. Even though the stage was completely reset and the ROs ready they preceded to do another full walk through of the stage. The make ready command was given and then shooter proceeded to do 3+ practice draws... A couple practice shoots (draw and engage the first visible targets...in this case 4)... They finally loaded their gun and holstered... Then air gunned the entire stage again from the start... Practiced the start position to gun maneuver a couple more times and then finally allowed the RO to give the are you ready command (RO had already tried twice).

Sounds about right.