Time Allowed?

[Flexmoney]

I personally don't care how long it takes for a competitor to "make ready", what gets me is the part the OP mentioned about being allowed to do another walk through after the stage was reset and ready to roll. If you want another walk through, do it when you are the shooter on deck and everyone is scoring, pasting and resetting targets, not after that is all finished.

Right.

The way I handle that is to make a reasonable request by calling out "Shooter to the start position, please". I have given that request numerous times while running shooters at matches. I have rarely ever had to repeat it.

They come back to the start position, as requested. Once there, they get the MR command...which keeps them there.

There is nothing in our rule book about a time limit for MR. Just a location.

[JakeMartens]

I used to walk up to the start position MR, and be good to go. But now that I am more experienced and have learned the value of being visually and mentally prepared I take the time to get a couple of unloaded sight pictures on my first array, load and then give it another mental/visual walk-through before I get my start position.

[mhop]

This isn't a race to see who can be done shooting for the day first. It's a race to see who is fastest on the stage.

[Jim Norman]

I don't think anyone would deny a draw, sight picture, verify mags are loaded, mental run through. What happens is that this begins to run to the ridiculous. Most matches whether we like it or not have a schedule. We have imposed and natural time limits. Most matches run on a 3-4 minute per shooter, if we exceed this, we can find ourselves without daylight to shoot in.

[MHicks]

A higher percentage of very good shooters will usually have a more involved, longer make ready routine. Assuming that this does help in their preparation to do their best on the stage, it would probably also be to lower level shooters advantage to do the same. But,When good shooters take it to a ridiculous level, the lower level shooters are less inclined to follow suit because it may seem silly to them to take that much time to prepare when they don't get a great result on the stage anyway. The only way this would change is if every shooter decided to take whatever the maximum time was that is being tolerated to make ready. If everyone took 4 or 5 minutes to get ready, it would take forever to shoot a match. Then, you would see a change made, eventually. Mark

[Jim Norman]

Maybe what we need is a ruling on time limits. Yes you need time to make ready, but at some point you need to shoot! I have watched in a few rare cases where the sun was in your eyes unless it was behind a cloud where a shooter would fiddle around waiting on the sun to duck back and give him a better chance at a stage. OK, 30 seconds, I don't have a problem, drop a mag, wipe it off, reload, take the top rounds out, then put them back, burn time, I start to have a problem.

Perhaps we need a rule along the 2 minutes to clear a malfunction rule. Come to the line ready to shoot, You have 30 seconds to LAMR or you stand down, Maybe a minute, but that is a LONG time. Actually I might drag out a stop watch and time a few of the people that this thread is about or their local counterparts, and see how long they REALLY take. Sometimes it is all a matter of perception as opposed to reality.

[JakeMartens]

Maybe what we need is a ruling on time limits. Yes you need time to make ready, but at some point you need to shoot! I have watched in a few rare cases where the sun was in your eyes unless it was behind a cloud where a shooter would fiddle around waiting on the sun to duck back and give him a better chance at a stage. OK, 30 seconds, I don't have a problem, drop a mag, wipe it off, reload, take the top rounds out, then put them back, burn time, I start to have a problem.

Perhaps we need a rule along the 2 minutes to clear a malfunction rule. Come to the line ready to shoot, You have 30 seconds to LAMR or you stand down, Maybe a minute, but that is a LONG time. Actually I might drag out a stop watch and time a few of the people that this thread is about or their local counterparts, and see how long they REALLY take. Sometimes it is all a matter of perception as opposed to reality.

Why?

Are we having a national problem with club and majors running into not getting done before the sun sets?

Leave it alone, let the shooter do what they need to to prepare themselves.

When RO's are trying to hurry a squad and get things done at record speed that is how scores sheets and things don't get reset and pasted.

[bbbean]

Maybe what we need is a ruling on time limits.

Not every problem needs an "official" solution. Not every annoyance is a problem.

If you get behind the Super Squad, you might get a few minutes before each stage to watch one or two of the GMs do their pre-stage ritual. There are worse things that could happen at a match.

[Jim Norman]

Perhaps I should have been clearer. My last sentence "Actually I might drag out a stop watch and time a few of the people that this thread is about or their local counterparts, and see how long they REALLY take. Sometimes it is all a matter of perception as opposed to reality." would seem to indicate that I beleive that this MAY NOT be a problem and that a real check of just how long people are really taking might dispel the entire situation. It might be how long we perceive the ritual to be, not how long it really is.

More matches run long due to stage design and REF than to airgunning.

I do wish people would move through the walk-through a little more orderly however, exit the rear and walk around the COF, not back up through it, Let the ondeck shooter have the stage instead of trying to get an extra walk-through. This would more than offset the LAMR rituals.

[Steven Cline]

If the RO allowed each competitor to make ready as they want (absent clear violation of the rules) then the RO treated all shooters the same.

As the CRO I don't stipulate how the shooter makes ready. They have different routines, it's all good. Follow 8.3.1 and I'm happy.

[Steven Cline]

I personally don't care how long it takes for a competitor to "make ready", what gets me is the part the OP mentioned about being allowed to do another walk through after the stage was reset and ready to roll. If you want another walk through, do it when you are the shooter on deck and everyone is scoring, pasting and resetting targets, not after that is all finished.

Actually I don't think the OP said he did another walk through, he said air-gunned the stage. Though I might be the one assuming, I read that to me he stood at the start location and mimicked shooting the order of targets with mimicked reloads. I do that sometimes.

[Sarge]

I personally don't care how long it takes for a competitor to "make ready", what gets me is the part the OP mentioned about being allowed to do another walk through after the stage was reset and ready to roll. If you want another walk through, do it when you are the shooter on deck and everyone is scoring, pasting and resetting targets, not after that is all finished.

Actually I don't think the OP said he did another walk through, he said air-gunned the stage. Though I might be the one assuming, I read that to me he stood at the start location and mimicked shooting the order of targets with mimicked reloads. I do that sometimes.

Sure he did:

Recently I watched one of the top shooters prepare to shoot a stage. Even though the stage was completely reset and the ROs ready they preceded to do another full walk through of the stage. The make ready command was given and then shooter proceeded to do 3+ practice draws... A couple practice shoots (draw and engage the first visible targets...in this case 4)... They finally loaded their gun and holstered... Then air gunned the entire stage again from the start... Practiced the start position to gun maneuver a couple more times and then finally allowed the RO to give the are you ready command (RO had already tried twice).<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">Are there any rules pertaining to this? IMHO this seems unfair as it seems unlikely the ROs would be as patient if the shooter had not been famous... An unknown 'C' class shooter should get the same opportunities as a famous GM....

[Chris Keen]

Like Jake said ..... Until we have a Nationwide epidemic of matches running out of daylight ....... I say let it go. It's not really a problem. In fact the guys that take 2 minutes to "Make Ready", and the same ones who take 20 seconds to shoot a stage that might take someone else 40-60 sec. so it all balances out in the end.

[Ben Stoeger]

IPSC has taken steps to "crack down" on this. They have the one sight picture rule.

The result is that IPSC matches do not run any faster than USPSA.

[Skydiver]

IPSC has taken steps to "crack down" on this. They have the one sight picture rule.

The result is that IPSC matches do not run any faster than USPSA.

Actually, they now have a no sight picture rule in 2012:

8.7.1 Competitors are prohibited from taking a sight picture and/or dry firing prior to the start signal. Violation will result in a warning for the first occurrence and one procedural penalty for each subsequent occurrence in the same match. Competitors may, while pointing their firearm at the ground, adjust electronic sights.

[JakeMartens]

IPSC has taken steps to "crack down" on this. They have the one sight picture rule.

The result is that IPSC matches do not run any faster than USPSA.

Actually, they now have a no sight picture rule in 2012:

8.7.1 Competitors are prohibited from taking a sight picture and/or dry firing prior to the start signal. Violation will result in a warning for the first occurrence and one procedural penalty for each subsequent occurrence in the same match. Competitors may, while pointing their firearm at the ground, adjust electronic sights.

Good for them

Thank god we have our own set of rules

I have not invested all this time, money and traveled these distances to have some RO get his panties in a bunch because I am going to take 10-20 extra seconds to prepare myself before I shoot a stage.

If an RO's goal is to hurry and finish and get back to the bar then the problem is not with the shooter it is with the RO and maybe they need to rethink why they are there. This is a competition that I didn't come to to finish second.

Maybe if some of the people that took all the time that they do pouring over the rules and dissecting them and trying to change them to suit their needs would spend that time with a gun in their hand maybe they would then understand the importance of visualizing a stage and burning a plan in. They probably would stop saying things like everything goes out the window when the buzzer goes off.

[Flexmoney]

Yes, sometimes the tails wags the dog. I couldn't say this before on the forum (as I was running for AD5 election and that doesn't fly here), but one of my foundation principles is to be vigilant of, and help prevent, what I'll call "bureaucratic/administrative creep". It is an uphill battle, as it is fairly inevitable. The envelope always gets pushed. Sometimes good, but often...not so much.

Of particular concern to me is when somebody's pet peeve gets put into a rule under some other justification.

If it saves just one child 5 minutes...

[moverfive]

Yes, sometimes the tails wags the dog. I couldn't say this before on the forum (as I was running for AD5 election and that doesn't fly here), but one of my foundation principles is to be vigilant of, and help prevent, what I'll call "bureaucratic/administrative creep". It is an uphill battle, as it is fairly inevitable. The envelope always gets pushed. Sometimes good, but often...not so much.

Of particular concern to me is when somebody's pet peeve gets put into a rule under some other justification.

If it saves just one child 5 minutes...

THANK YOU FLEX! I so wish all proposed rule changes properly identified the problem being addressed - to ensure there was a real problem and that the problem was properly being addressed. That way we wouldn't have rule changes where a small group of folks implemented because they simply didn't like something.

[Rambo]

Wow! I didn't realize this would draw so many quality comments...thanks everyone!

Personally I like how Jim said it... Everyone need some time but at some point you need to shoot. IMHO you should be fully ready when you come to the line.

Realize that the majority of the highly successful sports in this world have time limits for everything... Ex: basketball foul shots...football play clock...baseball hitters time between pitches...golfer time for shots...etc

Perhaps my math is wrong...but take a match with 500 shooters...and 10 stages...

10 seconds to MR > 10sec * 500shooters * 10stages = 50000sec which is converted to 13.89 hours

30 seconds to MR > 30sec * 500shooters * 10stages = 150000sec which is converted to 41.67 hours

That's a huge time increase....

[bbbean]

...one of my foundation principles is to be vigilant of, and help prevent, what I'll call "bureaucratic/administrative creep". ...

Of particular concern to me is when somebody's pet peeve gets put into a rule under some other justification.

If it saves just one child 5 minutes...

+100! There doesn't have to be a rule for everything.

[P.E. Kelley]

Sorry guys this is a little off topic...

Come shoot a 3 gun match...while we have more to think about we don't take nearly as long to MR and have better prizes!

Oh and generally the better the 3Gun shooter the LESS time it takes to MR!

Mr Norman...I know you are a 3 gunner too.

Patrick

[alpha-charlie]

Perhaps my math is wrong...but take a match with 500 shooters...and 10 stages...

10 seconds to MR > 10sec * 500shooters * 10stages = 50000sec which is converted to 13.89 hours

30 seconds to MR > 30sec * 500shooters * 10stages = 150000sec which is converted to 41.67 hours

That's a huge time increase....

Yes, your math is off. 10 sec * 500 = 1,500 (converted to 83.33 mins) 30 sec * 500 = 15,000 (converted to 250 mins) for a difference of 167 mins.

Yes, the difference of almost 3 hours is a lot but I don't think that's a fair representation of what's really going on. I would say, on average, each shooter already takes about 30 seconds to make ready. It may seem faster than that but the majority of shooters draw, take a sight picture, trigger pull, and then load. A lot of limited, SS and open shooters do the mag shuffle. Also, the open guys get the dot up and running so they have the potential to take a little longer than iron sights. I see what you're saying about double or triple the time, but shooters tend to be creatures of routine. I don't see guys taking double or triple the time to MR if they are given an official "ok" by having a set time period. Most shooters take a last look and want to get shooting so they don't get distracted or forget what the plan is. If a rule were implemented it would probably only affected a very small percentage of shooters who take an unreasonable amount of time to MR. Probably not enough of a % to justify making another rule.

[Rambo]

Not to be critical but 10*500=5000 ... Not 1500... Plus you also need to account for the number of stages... Your example only accounts for one stage.

[alpha-charlie]

Not to be critical but 10*500=5000 ... Not 1500... Plus you also need to account for the number of stages... Your example only accounts for one stage.

whoops.

[Skydiver]

As I recall, some of us on the forum were teasing the video poster for not trimming down the "make ready" part of

, but to me that "Make Ready" routine (including the last minute plan change) was not even coming close to taking long. I would have felt comfortable letting a shooter futz around for more than 5 times that long before I would contemplate saying something to the shooter. Although I'm all for giving the shooter as much time as they need, at around the 4-5 minute mark, I would break from the protocol of only using range commands and ask the shooter if they wanted to stand down or continue to make ready.

I know this is pushing the absurd: You give a shooter the "Make Ready" command. He starts pulling handfuls of bullets out of his pockets and starts loading his empty magazines. Do you give him all the time in the world since there is no time limit for "Make Ready"? I would give the shooter a couple minutes before I would break away from range commands and ask him if wanted to, he could stand down and I will call up the next shooter.