moverfive Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 So can I DQ I competitor that takes to long to shoot each course of fire because I deem that to be interfering with the operation of the match? Why don't you read what I wrote. A deliberate attempt to screw with the match yes. The amount of time you take to shoot a stage no. You're partial logic makes about as much sense as me saying I would DQ someone for having an AD while reloading and you saying I wanted to DQ them for reloading. What I wrote was that I would not DQ for what was shown in the video. If the shooter continued to do it after direction from the range official, absolutely. This conversation has gotten a bit ridiculous. I have been playing this game for several years, have seen people that are quick at 'make ready,' and then those that are beyond slow by comparison. Never once have I seen, heard, or suspected anyone intentionally doing something during the 'make ready' portion of a stage where a DQ should have entered ANYONE'S mind. Now does that mean in all of the sport somewhere that someone hasn't made a jackass out of themselves (intentionally or not) along this subject line? NO. But to also say that this type of action has even occurred enough to have this conversation about DQ'ing folks, a bit ridiculous in my opinion. Some people are quick, some people are slow, and most are in the middle. If in that RARE occurrence you have that ultra slow competitor, just ask that they please hurry up and let that be the end of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 So it's perfectly fine for somebody to "slow down" their "Make Ready" routine to wait for that cloud to pass that is obscuring the target array they are intending to hit first? Actually, it's funny because at a past Area 1 in Parma, the winds had picked up badly after lunch causing some poppers and a door to activate whenever the gusts got bad. People were actually rushing their "Make Ready" routines to avoid a REF reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 So it's perfectly fine for somebody to "slow down" their "Make Ready" routine to wait for that cloud to pass that is obscuring the target array they are intending to hit first? Actually, it's funny because at a past Area 1 in Parma, the winds had picked up badly after lunch causing some poppers and a door to activate whenever the gusts got bad. People were actually rushing their "Make Ready" routines to avoid a REF reshoot. No, but unless they tell you that's what they're doing, how would you know? In order for me to say anything to a competitor, I'd have to have prior knowledge that a deliberately slower than usual MR routine was coming -- whatever the reason..... In that circumstance, I'd probably handle it much like Chuck -- ask nicely once, and then proceed toward DQ, if ignored. (Keep in mind that "proceed toward DQ" would involve a second conversation with the shooter -- a second opportunity for the competitor to decide to knock it off, and be on their best bahavior for the rest of the match. I can generally talk people into doing the right thing....) Without prior knowledge -- it'll take what it takes. Getting through it on a first attempt will be faster than moving the shooter to the bottom of order.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 This is an internet problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 This is an internet problem. :lol: Funny 'cause it's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Stoeger Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 This is an internet problem. But if it saves just 5 minutes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I personally don't care how long it takes for a competitor to "make ready", what gets me is the part the OP mentioned about being allowed to do another walk through after the stage was reset and ready to roll. If you want another walk through, do it when you are the shooter on deck and everyone is scoring, pasting and resetting targets, not after that is all finished. Actually I don't think the OP said he did another walk through, he said air-gunned the stage. Though I might be the one assuming, I read that to me he stood at the start location and mimicked shooting the order of targets with mimicked reloads. I do that sometimes. Sure he did: Recently I watched one of the top shooters prepare to shoot a stage. Even though the stage was completely reset and the ROs ready they preceded to do another full walk through of the stage. The make ready command was given and then shooter proceeded to do 3+ practice draws... A couple practice shoots (draw and engage the first visible targets...in this case 4)... They finally loaded their gun and holstered... Then air gunned the entire stage again from the start... Practiced the start position to gun maneuver a couple more times and then finally allowed the RO to give the are you ready command (RO had already tried twice).<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">Are there any rules pertaining to this? IMHO this seems unfair as it seems unlikely the ROs would be as patient if the shooter had not been famous... An unknown 'C' class shooter should get the same opportunities as a famous GM.... huh... must have been drinking when I posted that. I think I confused a walk through after MR was given and air-gunning from the start position after the MR was given. eh, if that's the worst mistake I ever make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) dup post Edited May 10, 2012 by Steven Cline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 eh, if that's the worst mistake I ever make. Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 So can I DQ I competitor that takes to long to shoot each course of fire because I deem that to be interfering with the operation of the match? Why don't you read what I wrote. A deliberate attempt to screw with the match yes. The amount of time you take to shoot a stage no. You're partial logic makes about as much sense as me saying I would DQ someone for having an AD while reloading and you saying I wanted to DQ them for reloading. What I wrote was that I would not DQ for what was shown in the video. If the shooter continued to do it after direction from the range official, absolutely. I did read what you wrote and you stated that if you didn't know about the previous intent to screw with the time That said, for just what was in the video it wouldn't have justified a DQ in my mind. I would have ULSC'd him and dropped him to the back of the order. The second time it happened, after the warning to knock it off, would have been a DQ from me. So you would DQ him based on your belief he is taking too long. That was my point. To take it a step further why is it a DQ the second time around? All you've done is waste time by cycling him through, if its an issue DQ him at the first occurance so it can go directly to arbitration and he can get on with his match. In other words you have wasted time by loading and then unloading him, putting him to the back of the order, loading, DQing, having to write the DQ up and submit it, which then goes to arbitration where it gets overturned and the shooter comes back once more to try again. At this point, if I was the shooter, my LAMR would definitely be a long one. As an MD at that point I would likely remove you as an RO for holding up the match. As Flex said this is an Internet problem that comes up only after someone posts a video and people feel the need to comment on it. I have never seen this actually considered an issue at a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Pat, I'm pretty sure from my reading, that Chuck was working from the "prior knowledge" hypothesis..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 No he stated that if he didn't know about the prior intent and based strictly on what was seen on the video he would first UASC, shuffle the shooter to the end of the squad and then DQ if he did it again. That said, for just what was in the video it wouldn't have justified a DQ in my mind. I would have ULSC'd him and dropped him to the back of the order. The second time it happened, after the warning to knock it off, would have been a DQ from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 No he stated that if he didn't know about the prior intent and based strictly on what was seen on the video he would first UASC, shuffle the shooter to the end of the squad and then DQ if he did it again. That said, for just what was in the video it wouldn't have justified a DQ in my mind. I would have ULSC'd him and dropped him to the back of the order. The second time it happened, after the warning to knock it off, would have been a DQ from me. Yeah, after a minute of Make Ready, the shooter clearly isn't ready to shoot. If you read all my posts instead of picking and choosing the bits that support what you want to hear you'll figure something out. This was a contest to see who could screw with the RO the longest at Make Ready. The video, which was required for the contest, was made to show how long he could do it. If you think that is a normal procedure for that shooter, or that matter any other shooter...well you probably need to get out more. Flex is right, this is an internet problem. A group of guys got together on the internet and created a problem. It actually does exist, and I'm particularly aware of it because this happened in my Area and I heard about it from shooters. Will it take longer to ULSC hear him one time in a match than letting him take 2, 3, 4, 5 minutes on Make Ready? Sure. But this isn't a one time issue. Sooner or later the shooter, and his buddies get the point and stop screwing around. Have all the fun at the match you want. But when you start making the match not fun for other people, and down right a pain in the ass for others, it's time to knock it off or find another hobby. How long do you wait when a shooter is up at Make Ready? We used to have it listed the Nationals Match Book that you needed to do it in 30 seconds or you'd be dropped to the back of the order. Not sure if it's still in there or not. Haven't read it for awhile. A reasonable RO can certainly make his own judgement call on that. If we're talking about a shooter taking 4, 5, 20 times longer to Make Ready than any other shooter? I'm going to start wondering. At some point, as the RO, you need to clear the stage and deal with the other shooters in the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmanP Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 The 'contest' was mentioned as a complete joke. No one was serious about doing it and as far as I know, I'm the only one that did it because we were gonna be waiting anyway so I figured I'd have a little fun with it and my friends who I was shooting with. That's why we shoot matches, to have fun. No one got bent out of shape because all it was was an open invitation by me to invite ridicule towards me which is always a good time. No one there cared then nor do they now short of possably being entertained by all the controversy it's generated granted the real hypothetical exists. But if we're talking about the hypothetical and this video, let's talk about it. OK, so it took me 73 seconds to finally get to it. 73 seconds it added to one guy who was screwing around. Let's say that you knew what was happening as it was happening. Are you going to potentially cause more time to be wasted and added onto everyone elses day over 73 seconds? Is 73 seconds worth of squirreling around enough to generate a weeks worth of conversations about? I'll tell you from first hand experience, 73 seconds on the LAMR is a loooooooooooong time from the maker of ready's perspective. I was there forever! You think it's actually going to turn into a problem now? Not likely. Tell you what we've done though. If someone looks like they might be having an issue or isn't ready, we do the obvious thing. We ask them. "Hey, do you want to be bumped down or are you good?" And then you can ask the other guys "Hey, would you be ready to go or do you need time?". It's strange how all you have to do is communicate with others, it's it's like instant problem solved. Worst case senario, you wait a little bit but that's something we're all used to doing right? Waiting. It's all we do all day at matches is stand around and wait hours to get your 2 minutes of shooting in. We used to have this one guy here, great guy and everyone loved him, but he would chronically not pay attention. His attention span just wasn't there sometimes. Wouldn't have his mags loaded, didn't know what the stage procedure was, wasn't sure about a plan, that kind of thing. It happened so often that we'd joke with him as he walked up to the line "Hey you got your mags loaded?" It was halarious that he would go 'oh shute' and turn around and go load his mags. And he was the last shooter in the squad! Great guy and it was funny! No one got upset or anything, we just went along with it and joked about it. It was kinda worth it just to see what would happen or funny to watch him shoot a few rounds in a mag and go dry only to look inquisically at his blaster wondering why it stopped working. Entertainment is everywhere; sometimes it's you, sometimes it's me, sometimes it's the other guy. But it's the reason I don't sit at home on Sundays watching TV being antisocial. 73 seconds, 90 seconds, 120 seconds, I don't care. It's material for comedy in the making. You can enjoy it and have a good time or get all mad about it and not enjoy yourself in which case, why not go find something you can enjoy? Too much seriousness in this world, we don't need any more. I mean, non of this really matters anyway so why get bent out of shape about it? That's why it sucks to shot on the male god squad at Nationals cause everyone cares too damn much (so I've been told). We're there to have fun remember? Let's put the fun back in shooting. If it wasn't fun it'd be work and who the hell wants to work for free? Not this guy. Tomorrow, I'm gonna go have me some fun with a carbine, how about you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsmw5142 Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 (edited) So it's perfectly fine for somebody to "slow down" their "Make Ready" routine to wait for that cloud to pass that is obscuring the target array they are intending to hit first? Hmmm... I have to remember that next time the sun is peeking over the berm straight into my face Edited May 11, 2012 by dsmw5142 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmanP Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 (edited) Had sooooo much fun with carbines the other day. We had one stage that had a very awkward shooting position for most people. On that stage, after the LAMR command was given, the shooter asked if they could take a sight picture and of course it was granted. They'd then get into that position to see what worked for them since most people don't practice this stuff. Sometimes it took awhile, upwards of 2 minutes for them to get it ironed out. Then they'd have to get back to the start position and get to it. Almost everyone took advantage of that and as the RO's and MD's, we said more power to them! And in the end, it didn't really amount to any noticable increase in time to complete the overall match. We were still done normal time. There was a 2 shooter back up when we arrived and we left before the next squad arrived. If it was going to make a difference in clearance times and end match times, it would have been most evident right there and then. Even had time to screw arround a little on that stage. Edited May 14, 2012 by EmanP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisMcCracken Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 I'm amazed this conversation is still going. Talk about a tempest in a teapot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmanP Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 It's not. This last weekend we had a stage where if it was ever going to be a problem it would have been and wasn't. I was sharing that experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisMcCracken Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 That's exactly my point. This isn't a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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