Unannounced Chrono stage at Level 1 Club Match

[waktasz]

I like the idea of an unannounced chrono. While we have to have a chrono stage at major matches, I'm not sure how much good it does, other than keep the honest folks honest. You're never going to catch the cheaters at chrono, only guys who made mistakes when loading(not that it matters with respect to the rules), the cheaters ammo will always make PF.

I wish they would have an RO grab a mag off of your person after shooting a stage then take it directly to chrono. I'm not saying a lot of people cheat but I do find it funny that you get to choose your "best 8" rounds to hand to the chrono man.

[Maksim]

I like the idea of an unannounced chrono. While we have to have a chrono stage at major matches, I'm not sure how much good it does, other than keep the honest folks honest. You're never going to catch the cheaters at chrono, only guys who made mistakes when loading(not that it matters with respect to the rules), the cheaters ammo will always make PF.

I wish they would have an RO grab a mag off of your person after shooting a stage then take it directly to chrono. I'm not saying a lot of people cheat but I do find it funny that you get to choose your "best 8" rounds to hand to the chrono man.

Well, as per the rules, the RO is to select the ammo from you, but in the major matches I have shot so far... it has been... give me your 8 best.

[Neomet]

If people get their panties in a wad about a "surprise" chrono I think of two things.

1. People who only play by the rules when they think they will get caught. (I;m being polite here.)

2. Fix the "Surprise" by announcing every so often chrono will be a stage at future matches. There, you are on notice.

3. Yes I know the folks in (1.) above will simply bring their box of special chrono ammo. in their range bag, but that is a whole other subject.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Neomet

[Skydiver]

One way to deal with "special chrono ammo" is to take apart one of the rounds submitted, and weigh that one. When the shooter makes it to the chrono station, return the other seven bullets, and take two or three bullets from each of the shooters currently loaded magazines.

[MarkCO]

I wish they would have an RO grab a mag off of your person after shooting a stage then take it directly to chrono. I'm not saying a lot of people cheat but I do find it funny that you get to choose your "best 8" rounds to hand to the chrono man.

On two separate occasions, at Nationals, I became suspicious of a few competitors ammo. Told the RM who promplty showed up with a baggie, pulled ammo off the belt and told the competitors to report to chrono after the stage. On one, there was no issue and the suspicious behavior was later explained to me. The other was minor, by a good margin.

[warpspeed]

If you think someone might be cheating then just make it part of the match. Put in on the flyer/website that a chrono stage will be part of the match. Then everyone comes prepared.

If you are being sneaky and trying to catch someone, grow up. What are you, in high school ? Really. Grow up.

Edited February 11, 2012 by warpspeed

[Maksim]

If you think someone might be cheating then just make it part of the match. Put in on the flyer/website that a chrono stage will be part of the match. Then everyone comes prepared.

If you are being sneaky and trying to catch someone, grow up. What are you, in high school ? Really. Grow up.

the point is, there should not be people who try to game the game unethically by breaking all the rules, and shooting with less powerful ammo.

Same as doping in sports... does it mean you have to test every player every game?

bringing a special box of ammo is sneaky, doing what is already written in the rules is hardly sneaky. At best, you inform someone of their load, and you save them from wasting a match fee at a major match, at worst, you call out someone being immoral.

[warpspeed]

If you think someone might be cheating then just make it part of the match. Put in on the flyer/website that a chrono stage will be part of the match. Then everyone comes prepared.

If you are being sneaky and trying to catch someone, grow up. What are you, in high school ? Really. Grow up.

the point is, there should not be people who try to game the game unethically by breaking all the rules, and shooting with less powerful ammo.

Same as doping in sports... does it mean you have to test every player every game?

bringing a special box of ammo is sneaky, doing what is already written in the rules is hardly sneaky. At best, you inform someone of their load, and you save them from wasting a match fee at a major match, at worst, you call out someone being immoral.

I've gotten past people trying to game the system and cheat. Put in a deterrence and get on with it. Cheaters will always cheat regardless. The chrono is there just to make it all seem legit. It is a little game within the game to some. Ask Contador.

If you are worried about another shooter and whether or not his ammo meets pf, he has succeeded in getting into your head. Do you think Dave S. cares ? I doubt that any of the Big Dogs even think about.

[ima45dv8]

If you think someone might be cheating then just make it part of the match. Put in on the flyer/website that a chrono stage will be part of the match. Then everyone comes prepared.

If you are being sneaky and trying to catch someone, grow up. What are you, in high school ? Really. Grow up.

the point is, there should not be people who try to game the game unethically by breaking all the rules, and shooting with less powerful ammo.

Same as doping in sports... does it mean you have to test every player every game?

bringing a special box of ammo is sneaky, doing what is already written in the rules is hardly sneaky. At best, you inform someone of their load, and you save them from wasting a match fee at a major match, at worst, you call out someone being immoral.

I've gotten past people trying to game the system and cheat. Put in a deterrence and get on with it. Cheaters will always cheat regardless. The chrono is there just to make it all seem legit. It is a little game within the game to some. Ask Contador.

If you are worried about another shooter and whether or not his ammo meets pf, he has succeeded in getting into your head. Do you think Dave S. cares ? I doubt that any of the Big Dogs even think about.

I don't know Contador, so I'll have to pass on that one.

Even if it's unannounced, and most Level I matches I've been to don't publish a flyer in advance, it's still part of the match, as you suggested. It's not 'sneaky' to have a test that's in the rulebook. All portions of the rulebook apply to all matches. Grown-ups know that, too.

Cheaters always cheat? Only if we let them.

[pskys2]

I like to see them done on occassion as there are a lot of local competitors who don't have easy access to a chrono.

Plus for those of us who are serious, it's nice to have your loads checked on different chrono's.

Going Minor/Sub Minor means little at a local club, unless your fighting for a Nationals Slot!

But doing so at a Major Match is a real bummer.

Another note if you let everyone know in advance, I guarantee you'll have a whole lot of "Can I just Check these loads also?"

So if you don't want to spend extra time, don't advertise.

If some get dinged, and then get mad then they probably deserved the wake up call.

Most just seem to be disappointed if they don't make what they want.

We used to pick the ammo for chrono from mags dropped, or off the belt. Seems like that stopped in the late '90's during a brief layoff from competing. I surmise one reason is the sheer number of competitors at bigger matches anymore, and less issues due to chrono availability, better procedures and such. I've really just quit worrying over someone gaming the chrono, I've just never seen it help anyone.

Edited February 11, 2012 by pskys2

[Rob Boudrie]

How about if a club simply announces that it will have unannounced chronographing from time 2 time?

[kalaur]

The chrono at this match made me sweat, since I had not yet chrono'd a new load I was shooting. Did it piss me off because it was 'unannounced'? Absolutely not. Did it make me sweat? Absolutely, but more so because I load for friends and was worried they would go minor as well. I ended up shooting 165.5 or something like that. Needless to say, it kept me from having to make an extra range trip to chrono. Bumped up the load a bit and all is well.

I would also like the idea of setting up a chrono and making it 'optional' for people to use if you have the space/time during the match. Gives people the opportunity to check their ammo if they have not verified, or under different weather conditions from what you chrono'd at last time.

[Wild Gene]

I think it's a great idea.

I quit cowboy shooting because the rules only applied to some shooters and guys were shooting .32's with a grain of Bullseye and a magnum primer. You had to wait for the ding. Guys would get to the unloading table and hear this "ding, ding, ding", it was their own bullets hitting the targets.

If you have rules, they need to be enforced, nothing wrong with that.

wg

[Seth]

If you DECLARED major and submitted your scores to be counted (particularly the classifers) you should expect the possibility of being called on it. I think its a marvelous idea and completely fair. The local MD here did it off the clock and I watched several shooters go minor.

Then there were guys like me that shot a 181pf .40.

[RePete]

What's the problem?

Only cheaters are going to bitch about it.

You want to play a game, play by the rules.

I don't care, I'm going to make PF anytime, anywhere.

[HI5-O]

....because I believe in playing within the rules....

Nuff said.

ditto

[blaster113]

I think its a good idea

[mildot1]

Very surprised at some of the responses viewing this as a "Gotcha" approach. The first thing that comes to mind is if you are worrying about the chrono is. 1 you are cutting it very close 2.you know you are under. I would much rather know that I was under or even marginal at a level 1 match than find out the hard way at a level 2 or higher. What about mag gauges and gun box? I think that they should be seen at the level 1 match every now and then.

Hard to cry about requirements that are clearly stated in the rulebook!

[diehli]

Even if you know/are pretty sure you're okay, I can understand not liking having it sprung on match attendees as a way to catch folks trying to skirt the rules.

From a marketing standpoint, couching it as a service to attendees ("hey, test your load to make sure you're making PF, but also bring other loads if you want to try 'em out") would catch the scofflaws (or, at least, put them on notice and maybe they won't show up) but also make it seem as though there's an added benefit and not just the attempt to catch scofflaws.

To analogize it to a government practice: we all want drunk drivers off the street, but the 4th Amendment violation (irrespective of what SCOTUS says) of DUI checkpoints is a PITA and offends some peoples' notions of how things should be run.

So, while I don't have a problem with it, I do think there are other, better ways that chrono could be handled at Level I matches.

[Skydiver]

So, while I don't have a problem with it, I do think there are other, better ways that chrono could be handled at Level I matches.

Make it something like a charity event. Put down $5 at the chrono station. Guess what your PF is for the current weather conditions. Match gets to keep the number of dollars difference between the measured PF and and shooter's guess. Of course, encourage shooters to donate the money anyway. :-)

[Seth]

Why? Declaring ammo power factor is part of the game... more than that, its part of the scoring and a integral part of determining the speed and difficulty a problem can be solved. Hiding from the chrono in any way is disengenuous if you ask me. Frankly, I find it somewhat suspect that anyone would take issue with a chrono. Makes it seem like you have something to hide.

There's tech inspections in club level racing in all sorts of different sports. Its part of the gig.

Harsh? Perhaps, but if you wanna beat me, you gotta do it fair and square.

So, while I don't have a problem with it, I do think there are other, better ways that chrono could be handled at Level I matches.

Make it something like a charity event. Put down $5 at the chrono station. Guess what your PF is for the current weather conditions. Match gets to keep the number of dollars difference between the measured PF and and shooter's guess. Of course, encourage shooters to donate the money anyway. :-)

[pjb45]

I am all for it!

I was shooting in the NW with a guy who claimed his 45 ACP was major. His muzzle flip was less than my .22 pistol.

I was at A2 when they did random pull of ammo.

I had some ammo, people thought some of my ammo was questionable but it was the same ammo chrono'd at A2 at 166 PF.

I have no problem at all surprised chono or random pulling of ammo. If I go minor or sub minor so be it. I try not to put my PF on the edge but if it happens it happens.

For more than 6 years I used the same recipe but recently changed to a heavier bullet so I had to modify my load.

[enutees]

My only concern would be the new guy shooting factory 9mm his first time and not getting to count his score. I have seen a few factory loads (old Blazer especially) that are really close to 125 when I chronoed them. I know most of the Winchester white box is okay but there are some loads that are subminor.

For those of us that shoot regularly and know the rules I think it's fine as long as the match doesn't slow down. I'd rather find one of my loads going under at a local than something I paid big money to shoot. While my chorno may say its okay I don't have the ability or time to test my loads under all conditions so it gives you one more look at it.

[Jim Norman]

New shooters are very unlikely to win seeing as how they are usually "U", so what we do is if it is Factory Ammo we let them shoot and show their scores. We have had two different boxes of factory where one made PF and the other didn't.

If you are a seasoned competitor, then you are responsible to know the rules and make PF, if it is your first match, you are responsible to not scare the crap out of the RO or your squadmates and to get through the stages.

Seriously, if you purchase Match Ammo from the approved supplier you are good to go even if you aren't even at Nationals, so if you shoot Factory ammo at a Level 1 as a new shooter should we really send you home with no score?

[GForceLizard]

I like the idea of announced or unannounced chrono stages. The unannounced chrono may tell me something about the people I shoot with that I didn't want to know. So be it. The chrono at a level 1 match is a service to shooters that don't chrono. If the don't make FP then they learned something. If they do chrono and this one doesn't match what they think their PF should be. Again it's a service, they learned something. I'd rather miss PF at my local range. Then it can be fixed before it really matters.