Getting bumped to open from production

[steel1212]

One thing that I've never understood and I am sure will cause me to be flamed & flogged for ignorance:

Why, if you get "bumped" for an equipment issue, do you get bumped to Open? Seems like to me, if my gun is 0.5 oz. too heavy or the R.O. doesn't like my magazine in my front pocket at ULSC, then I just went to L-10 Minor, which is the most-appropriate Division for my "Gamey" gear.

Just sayin'....

It is a penalty that is supposed to hurt. You won't forget it...

Or because everything fits into open....

[sirveyr]

Or because everything fits into open....

I think this was last Wednesday's Maku Mozo...

[Dwain C. Baer]

It would feel like a penalty to me...

[Schutzenmeister]

One thing that I've never understood and I am sure will cause me to be flamed & flogged for ignorance:

Why, if you get "bumped" for an equipment issue, do you get bumped to Open? Seems like to me, if my gun is 0.5 oz. too heavy or the R.O. doesn't like my magazine in my front pocket at ULSC, then I just went to L-10 Minor, which is the most-appropriate Division for my "Gamey" gear.

Just sayin'....

Oh ... I'm gonna get hit. 'Cause that's the rule! (6.2.5.1)

Seriously. I think it was an evolutionary thing. A long, long time ago, in a place far, far away, there were no divisions. ALL guns competed head-to-head without regard to type or action. Then some bright soul decided the guys shooting with (what we now call) Limited (or Standard in IPSC) guns were at a serious disadvantage against the Open guns. Hence, two divisions were invented: Open and Limited (Standard). Of course, rules had to be made for those who played in Limited (Standard) but busted one or mre limitations on their equipment. The penalty ... a bump to the only other division available - Open.

Now we have 6 disivions. The only division you can safely say you can bump someone to (without having to do any real thinking) is Open. ANY gun (pretty much) can shoot in Open. (Unless it violates something there, like mags that are 175mm or something.)

The RM can move someone to a more appropriate division BEFORE the match starts only if the declared division is not recognized or becomes deleted. Otherwise, after the shooter fires his first shots, the only available path is to Open.

Probably not the answer you were looking for, but I think it's pretty close to correct.

[Braxton1]

Seriously. I think it was an evolutionary thing. A long, long time ago, in a place far, far away, there were no divisions. ALL guns competed head-to-head without regard to type or action. Then some bright soul decided the guys shooting with (what we now call) Limited (or Standard in IPSC) guns were at a serious disadvantage against the Open guns. Hence, two divisions were invented: Open and Limited (Standard). Of course, rules had to be made for those who played in Limited (Standard) but busted one or mre limitations on their equipment. The penalty ... a bump to the only other division available - Open.

I understand the rule. I was just looking for the logic behind it. This makes total sense now, historically if not logically.

I was around back in the days when "Tactical" or "Stock" matches were just side-matches, usually shot after the main show. It was really cool to see somebody with a Single-Stack non-comped 45 come out and smoke a guy with an Open gun (although the only advantage that the Open guy had was the compensator. He had Bo-Mars and an 8-round magazine too.). That happened with more regularity than you'd think.

[kimmie]

Just had the Area 7 Championship this past weekend. I spent a lot of time re-reading the rule book and reading all of the 'rules' posts here because I was r.o.'ing. I always learn something new on here. I had just read this thread prior to the match. John Amidon was at the match and at the shooters meeting, he specifically referenced this rule. And spent a fair amount of time discussing it. And how it applied. As written. I'm not making any comments one way or the other concerning whether I like the rule or not. I thought it was interesting how this was a rule he chose to stress that shooters should be aware of and that would be enforced.

[vluc]

Just had the Area 7 Championship this past weekend. I spent a lot of time re-reading the rule book and reading all of the 'rules' posts here because I was r.o.'ing. I always learn something new on here. I had just read this thread prior to the match. John Amidon was at the match and at the shooters meeting, he specifically referenced this rule. And spent a fair amount of time discussing it. And how it applied. As written. I'm not making any comments one way or the other concerning whether I like the rule or not. I thought it was interesting how this was a rule he chose to stress that shooters should be aware of and that would be enforced.

Hmm, if he referenced it and it was interpreted/enforced the same way Area 8 did it, then we may have an inkling of which direction a more definitive ruling may be going.

[Jim Norman]

To reiterate the thoughts of more than a few with regard to an unpopular or poorly written rule.

A> Enforce it. We as RO, CRO, RM, and other staff have a duty to play by the rules. I will add a caveat to that. At a Level 1 match, a new shooter should NOT be dinged for a rules infraction of the non-intuitive type so long as it is also not a safety violation. Most of us carefully cover the 180, where to handle, no ammo in the safe area, sweeping and other points with the newbie. I doubt we get into the nitty-gritty of where an extra mag cannot be carried during the 15-30 minutes we get to cover the rest.

B> Write to your SC and AD and the NROI and the Pres with a concise respectful letter to explain why the rule needs to be amended and what you think you should be the change. Generally don't advocate tossing the baby out with the bath water.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Jim Norman

[Schutzenmeister]

B> Write to your SC and AD and the NROI and the Pres with a concise respectful letter to explain why the rule needs to be amended and what you think you should be the change. Generally don't advocate tossing the baby out with the bath water.

OK ... Mr Tact and diplomacy. WHO are you, and what did you do with Jim Norman?

[lugnut]

I survived A7 as I used large paper clips to keep my front pockets shut. No I'm not kidding. I heard at least one person was bumped to Open but i don't know the details.

I will say one other thing- this sucks. Many of my back pockets have a damn velcro flap on them making insertion and removing mags- very difficult. I"m sure the ROs where wondering what the hell I was doing!

[spanky]

Add a pouch

Load from last pouch

ULSC to your first pouch

simple as pie.

[lugnut]

Add a pouch

Load from last pouch

ULSC to your first pouch

simple as pie.

I could... and may but I still want to rules changed. I have 5 mags ready to go on my belt at all times- I don't want a 6th. Yeah 5's a lot but I've seen peoples' mags fall out, etc. I really don't want to add another.. it will slow me down significantly.

[DWFAN]

I like the "May not be retrieved" addition. Stowing a mag in a front pocket (barney mag, or at ULSC), does not provide any competitive advantage if it is never retrieved.

[racerba]

OK:

- I come to the line without any mags on me...RO says "make ready"...I tell the RO I'm not ready, step off the line to retrieve my mags...all legal, no harm no foul, right?

- I come to the line and realize my holster is a little too far forward...RO says "make ready"...I make ready including fixing the position of my holster...all legal, no harm no foul, right?

- I come to the line with a mag in my front pocket...RO says "make ready"...I tell the RO I'm not ready, step off the line and remove the mag from my front pocket...STILL LEGAL?

[vluc]

Add a pouch

Load from last pouch

ULSC to your first pouch

simple as pie.

What I do!

6 pouches for production. One for loading mag, 5 for the rest. Cost $22.95. Doesn't interfere with back of chair starts, weight is inconsequential, knowing you won't go to open for it - priceless. (might go for something else, but not for that!)

[Poppa Bear]

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise

the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

As I read this the two are tied together. Under 5.2.4 you are compliant when you come to the line with all mags on your belt OR in an apparel pocket that meets the requirements of App D, Item 12. At the command "Make Ready" you need to be compliant with App D, Item 12 or be bumped to open under 6.2.5.1. If the WSB calls for the gun or mags to be in a different location for the start signal then you are authorized under 5.2.4 to move the gun and mags to that location after the COF has started but prior to the start signal. So unless the WSB calls for a non-compliant location for the mags, you need to be fully compliant at the start of the COF, during the COF and up to the end of the COF.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Poppa Bear

[spanky]

I like the "May not be retrieved" addition. Stowing a mag in a front pocket (barney mag, or at ULSC), does not provide any competitive advantage if it is never retrieved.

I agree (but I might be slightly biased).

[spanky]

Add a pouch

Load from last pouch

ULSC to your first pouch

simple as pie.

I could... and may but I still want to rules changed. I have 5 mags ready to go on my belt at all times- I don't want a 6th. Yeah 5's a lot but I've seen peoples' mags fall out, etc. I really don't want to add another.. it will slow me down significantly.

I use 6 pouches and use the Load/Unload method I outlined and there is zero chance of error.

[lugnut]

Add a pouch

Load from last pouch

ULSC to your first pouch

simple as pie.

I could... and may but I still want to rules changed. I have 5 mags ready to go on my belt at all times- I don't want a 6th. Yeah 5's a lot but I've seen peoples' mags fall out, etc. I really don't want to add another.. it will slow me down significantly.

I use 6 pouches and use the Load/Unload method I outlined and there is zero chance of error.

OK I will do this. I still want the rules changed.

[racerba]

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise

the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

As I read this the two are tied together. Under 5.2.4 you are compliant when you come to the line with all mags on your belt OR in an apparel pocket that meets the requirements of App D, Item 12. At the command "Make Ready" you need to be compliant with App D, Item 12 or be bumped to open under 6.2.5.1. If the WSB calls for the gun or mags to be in a different location for the start signal then you are authorized under 5.2.4 to move the gun and mags to that location after the COF has started but prior to the start signal. So unless the WSB calls for a non-compliant location for the mags, you need to be fully compliant at the start of the COF, during the COF and up to the end of the COF.

You're forgetting one important phrase:

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, ...

[98sr20ve]

So if I take a magazine out of my Pants cargo pocket or front pocket and use that magazine to load my production gun and I now shooting OPEN? Or is only after the "Beep" that maters.` I don't have the energy to read this entire post.

Edited September 13, 2011 by 98sr20ve

[BillD]

So if I take a magazine out of my Pants cargo pocket or front pocket and use that magazine to load my production gun and I now shooting OPEN? .

Yes. And when you finish at the ULSC, if you put the mag into your front pocket, you are in open.

[spanky]

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise

the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

As I read this the two are tied together. Under 5.2.4 you are compliant when you come to the line with all mags on your belt OR in an apparel pocket that meets the requirements of App D, Item 12. At the command "Make Ready" you need to be compliant with App D, Item 12 or be bumped to open under 6.2.5.1. If the WSB calls for the gun or mags to be in a different location for the start signal then you are authorized under 5.2.4 to move the gun and mags to that location after the COF has started but prior to the start signal. So unless the WSB calls for a non-compliant location for the mags, you need to be fully compliant at the start of the COF, during the COF and up to the end of the COF.

You're forgetting one important phrase:

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, ...

Problem is that there is no "after the start signal" in 6.2.5.1 which makes the two rules seem contradictory.

[jar]

I use 6 pouches and use the Load/Unload method I outlined and there is zero chance of error.

That's what I did for Area 7. It's easy to load from the pouches, but I caught myself starting to put my unload mag in the front pocket several times. I may have to copy Lugnut's clips. The guy I know who got bumped to open was for a 6" sight tracker in limited.

[Skydiver]

Add a pouch

Load from last pouch

ULSC to your first pouch

simple as pie.

And if your pouches allow, put the ULSC mag into the pouch backwards (eg facing back, rather than forwards). I've been bitten before of putting a partial mag back into a pouch. Since I don't download all my magazines after each run, the backwards mag reminds me that I should download that one to make sure I load it back up to 10.