Getting bumped to open from production

[badchad]

I respectfully disagree. All are rules and all have fairly drastic consequences. I shoot Single Stack and sometimes Production. I am aware of the rule and have the ability to avoid getting bumped to Open because of it. It always makes me shake my head when a shooter screws up and the immediate reaction is we need a rule change because of it.

Is it true you had to sew your front pockets shut to avoid getting bumped to Open?

IPSC/USPSA shooters are always inovative. I call it insurance until I can train myself to quit doing something I have been doing for about 30 years. I approach this just like the other violations I listed. I load over minimum power factor. I buy factory 9mm that is over minimum power factor and check it over the chrono. I bought a mag guage to check my magazines for length. I check my gun in the USPSA box before attending a match. And most importantly I read the rules and ask questions when I am not sure.

IMO if people have to go so far as to sew there pockets shut to avoid having their match ruined, that says something about the non-intuitiveness of the rule as Flexmoney said and about muscle memory really working against the shooter.

But I have a second question. In USPSA history has their ever been an issue with unfairness, safety, or anything with Production or Single Stack shooters using their pockets as usual prior to Mar/Apr 2011?

[badchad]

What if this rule...

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

...just became this?

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty.

[JakeMartens]

What if this rule...

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

...just became this?

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty.

Going to change Appendix D, Item 12 and E3 then too?

Edited September 10, 2011 by JakeMartens

[RDunn]

i have also been informed of this rule during a match. i wasnt told they would move me to open, just that i needed to place it in the back pocket. to be honest its really not a big deal. its not like your doing it under time. just throw it in your back pocket in a few weeks it will be like thats where it always was. do i think the rul is silly......YES. but what is my other option, move to open. no thanks.

[Gary Stevens]

I respectfully disagree. All are rules and all have fairly drastic consequences. I shoot Single Stack and sometimes Production. I am aware of the rule and have the ability to avoid getting bumped to Open because of it. It always makes me shake my head when a shooter screws up and the immediate reaction is we need a rule change because of it.

Is it true you had to sew your front pockets shut to avoid getting bumped to Open?

IPSC/USPSA shooters are always inovative. I call it insurance until I can train myself to quit doing something I have been doing for about 30 years. I approach this just like the other violations I listed. I load over minimum power factor. I buy factory 9mm that is over minimum power factor and check it over the chrono. I bought a mag guage to check my magazines for length. I check my gun in the USPSA box before attending a match. And most importantly I read the rules and ask questions when I am not sure.

IMO if people have to go so far as to sew there pockets shut to avoid having their match ruined, that says something about the non-intuitiveness of the rule as Flexmoney said and about muscle memory really working against the shooter.

But I have a second question. In USPSA history has their ever been an issue with unfairness, safety, or anything with Production or Single Stack shooters using their pockets as usual prior to Mar/Apr 2011?

The point you miss is I didn't haveto sew it shut, I choseto sew it shut. Just like all the other precautions I take to stay within the equipment rules.

[Flexmoney]

This is one of those "gotcha" rules. I know a good man that has said, "we aren't in the gotcha business."

I can see where people might choose to shoot somewhere else, and I can see the reasoning in their choice.

Again, those that are in the loop...they aren't the people this rule hits. It's the new shooter shooter that we take a hit on, a rule technicality.

That new shooter, he/she is the one that I want to stick around. ...to see them learn to shoot their practical guns better. ...to see them excited about USPSA. ...to see them, at some point, design and build stages...run shooter...run matches.

[lugnut]

I can't let this go and won't if I can do anything about it. I'm sure I can make adjustments eventually but I'm concerned that with my adrenalin pumping after the ULSC command I will mistakingly place the partial mag in my front pocket... sewing them shut to prevent such an action tells me that this is an unreasonable rule. Worse than me making a mistake... I'd hate to eliminate my competition this way if they make that mistake. If they only make 124.9 PF or their gun doesn't fit the box- that's totally different IMO.

As Gary said "Sometimes rules have unintended consequences" and I think this is a clear case of that... and we collectively should make relevant changes.

One of the things I love about this sport IS the fact that in general it's very easy to understand what to do. This rule(s) goes against that grain big time IMHO.

[Flexmoney]

i have also been informed of this rule during a match. i wasnt told they would move me to open, just that i needed to place it in the back pocket. to be honest its really not a big deal. its not like your doing it under time. just throw it in your back pocket in a few weeks it will be like thats where it always was. do i think the rul is silly......YES. but what is my other option, move to open. no thanks.

Would it have been a bigger deal if you had been moved to open? Because that is what we are talking about, really.

And, if you were using a front pocket during your turn on a stage, under the clock or not,...then the rules state that you have to be placed in Open division. (I don't know if that happened and you got a free pass or not? )

[LPatterson]

There seems to be one person after another trying to explain their reasoning as to why this is a bad rule decision. I don't like a lot of other rules I am required to live by but I do them (most of them anyways) because the punishment is not worth the gain of violating them. There is a reason so many people dryfire and it is to build muscle memory so why not a little time learning where to put your mag when you are through shooting a stage. When I am out practicing (which is not as often as I should) I have trained myself not to put a used magazine back on my belt (pulled an empty mag on a stage once). Usually that means a left rear pocket (gun is on the right & mags pouches cover the left) and when the pocket becomes full, I clean it out and start over.

Debate why this is stupid until the cows come home or Sep 16 when the RO's will be applying ALL the rules as they are written not how YOU think they should be written.

Be safe and see you there.

[Flexmoney]

It's not an issue of proper practice.

It's not an issue of willingness to follow the rules or not.

It's not an issue of taking extra steps (no front pockets).

Those solutions are great...provided you know the rule.

Now, before we go saying that it's tough luck...a shooter ought to know the rules... Ask "how?"

How is a newer shooter going to know this rule? Heck, how is a seasoned shooter...who isn't a rule nerd like us...how are they going to know the rule?

Most of the rules we have are kinda intuitive.

This one ended up being counter-intuitive.

Our rule book is probably the best it's ever been. A lot of folks have done a lot of good work on it over the years. And, I certainly think it helps...though sometimes it's painful...to have a discussion like this, with input from a variety of good human resources.

[Skydiver]

What if this rule...

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

...just became this?

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty.

With the rule re-written that way, a shooter wearing this vest is free to pull mags from anywhere since a vest is apparel:

[Flexmoney]

With the rule re-written that way, a shooter wearing this vest is free to pull mags from anywhere since a vest is apparel:

Perhaps we can first agree that the rule could be improved? (Before getting into all the crazy "what-ifs", and tearing a guys first effort apart.)

[Skydiver]

It's not an issue of proper practice.

It's not an issue of willingness to follow the rules or not.

It's not an issue of taking extra steps (no front pockets).

Those solutions are great...provided you know the rule.

Now, before we go saying that it's tough luck...a shooter ought to know the rules... Ask "how?"

How is a newer shooter going to know this rule? Heck, how is a seasoned shooter...who isn't a rule nerd like us...how are they going to know the rule?

Most of the rules we have are kinda intuitive.

This one ended up being counter-intuitive.

Our rule book is probably the best it's ever been. A lot of folks have done a lot of good work on it over the years. And, I certainly think it helps...though sometimes it's painful...to have a discussion like this, with input from a variety of good human resources.

Off topic:

To me there are four counter intuitive rules in order of "WTF?!?" factor:

1) Removing an outer belt with a holstered gun is a DQ, but trapping a falling gun with anything but a hand is not.

2) Retrieving/storing a mag in front of the hip bone for Production/SS is a bump to Open.

3) Drawing/holstering a gun while in a Cooper tunnel is a DQ.

4) Official match ammo doesn't have to make power factor in the competitor's gun.

But back on topic:

Flex does have it right that a lot of thought and hours have gone into the current version of our rulebook to get to it's current level. To echo his sentiments, this discussion is also very helpful because it looks like it's definitely motivated some of us to contact our AD's to express our opinions, as well as, discuss how to make things better.

I've been told that the evolution of 5.2.4 from 2004:

5.2.4 Spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices should be carried in retention devices specifically designed for that purpose, to reduce the risk of loss during a course of fire.

to 2008:

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor’s belt and specifically designed for that purpose. A competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in his pockets and retrieve and use them without penalty once having dropped or exhausted his primary magazines.

was to prevent staging of mags on a COF. Plus it also formalized the "understanding" that a competitor needed to empty pouches first before resorting to pockets.

Then the 2010 version of the rule came out:

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

to remove the requirement that pouches had to be exhausted first, and have limits on where those pockets were. Unfortunately, we end up with the unintended consequence that we are discussing now.

[Skydiver]

With the rule re-written that way, a shooter wearing this vest is free to pull mags from anywhere since a vest is apparel:

Perhaps we can first agree that the rule could be improved? (Before getting into all the crazy "what-ifs", and tearing a guys first effort apart.)

Oops, sorry. I didn't mean that post as a put down. I was just trying to point out the the loophole opened by that wording. Again, my apologies.

[badchad]

What if this rule...

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

...just became this?

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty.

Going to change Appendix D, Item 12 and E3 then too?

Keep Appendix D the same, change E3 to say "Foremost limit for gun, holster and all equipment that's attached to belt behind the hip bone."

[badchad]

What if this rule...

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

...just became this?

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty.

With the rule re-written that way, a shooter wearing this vest is free to pull mags from anywhere since a vest is apparel:

Since vests with front mounted magazine pockets haven't taken over in Open or Limited, I'm not too worried about them hurting the integrity of the sport in Production or Single Stack. FWIW, that vest looks a lot like my D-Shoot jacket and appears designed to give easy access to magazines attached to the belt rather than being designed to hold magazines itself.

[Skydiver]

What if this rule...

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

...just became this?

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty.

Going to change Appendix D, Item 12 and E3 then too?

Keep Appendix D the same, change E3 to say "Foremost limit for gun, holster and all equipment that's attached to belt behind the hip bone."

I think you're getting there. Unfortunately, mags are not attached to the belt. May I suggest: "Foremost limit for gun, holster, and all allied equipment behind the hip bone."

Edit: Current E3 already says "Foremost limit for gun, holster, and all equipment behind the hip bone."

Edited September 10, 2011 by Skydiver

[Skydiver]

Since vests with front mounted magazine pockets haven't taken over in Open or Limited, I'm not too worried about them hurting the integrity of the sport in Production or Single Stack. FWIW, that vest looks a lot like my D-Shoot jacket and appears designed to give easy access to magazines attached to the belt rather than being designed to hold magazines itself.

Yup, primary purpose to to keep other gear accessible, but leave holster and pouches unencumbered. During a all mags on table start, though, it may be faster to sweep all mags into a vest or vest pocket rather than trying to insert the mags into individual pouches.

[badchad]

I respectfully disagree. All are rules and all have fairly drastic consequences. I shoot Single Stack and sometimes Production. I am aware of the rule and have the ability to avoid getting bumped to Open because of it. It always makes me shake my head when a shooter screws up and the immediate reaction is we need a rule change because of it.

Is it true you had to sew your front pockets shut to avoid getting bumped to Open?

IPSC/USPSA shooters are always inovative. I call it insurance until I can train myself to quit doing something I have been doing for about 30 years. I approach this just like the other violations I listed. I load over minimum power factor. I buy factory 9mm that is over minimum power factor and check it over the chrono. I bought a mag guage to check my magazines for length. I check my gun in the USPSA box before attending a match. And most importantly I read the rules and ask questions when I am not sure.

IMO if people have to go so far as to sew there pockets shut to avoid having their match ruined, that says something about the non-intuitiveness of the rule as Flexmoney said and about muscle memory really working against the shooter.

But I have a second question. In USPSA history has their ever been an issue with unfairness, safety, or anything with Production or Single Stack shooters using their pockets as usual prior to Mar/Apr 2011?

The point you miss I didn't haveto sew it shut, I choseto sew it shut. Just like all the other precautions I take to stay within the equipment rules.

But it seems you "chose" to sew your pockets shut because you were worried someone would "force" you into Open for performing a move that that comes natural to you, a move you feel you are likely to do even in spite of your best intentions not too, a move that is not unsafe, and offers no competitive advantage. I really think the level of precaution needed or desired says something about the reasonableness of said rule.

And I'll ask again: In USPSA history has their ever been an issue with unfairness, safety, or anything with Production or Single Stack shooters using their pockets as usual prior to Mar/Apr 2011?

[badchad]

Since vests with front mounted magazine pockets haven't taken over in Open or Limited, I'm not too worried about them hurting the integrity of the sport in Production or Single Stack. FWIW, that vest looks a lot like my D-Shoot jacket and appears designed to give easy access to magazines attached to the belt rather than being designed to hold magazines itself.

Yup, primary purpose to to keep other gear accessible, but leave holster and pouches unencumbered. During a all mags on table start, though, it may be faster to sweep all mags into a vest or vest pocket rather than trying to insert the mags into individual pouches.

And that's a problem? And if so, is it a problem for SS and Production shooters but not L10/Lim/Open shooters?

[badchad]

What if this rule...

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

...just became this?

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty.

Going to change Appendix D, Item 12 and E3 then too?

Keep Appendix D the same, change E3 to say

I think you're getting there. Unfortunately, mags are not attached to the belt. May I suggest: "Foremost limit for gun, holster, and all allied equipment behind the hip bone."

Edit: Current E3 already says "Foremost limit for gun, holster, and all equipment behind the hip bone."

I would change E3 as I stated: "Foremost limit for gun, holster and all equipment ***that's attached to belt*** behind the hip bone."

The additional 4 words in E3 combined with the modified 5.2.4 hopefully would make it clear that mags in pockets would not be subject to the behind hip bone requirement like the equipment one attaches to their belt.

[Skydiver]

What if this rule...

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

...just became this?

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty.

Going to change Appendix D, Item 12 and E3 then too?

Keep Appendix D the same, change E3 to say

I think you're getting there. Unfortunately, mags are not attached to the belt. May I suggest: "Foremost limit for gun, holster, and all allied equipment behind the hip bone."

Edit: Current E3 already says "Foremost limit for gun, holster, and all equipment behind the hip bone."

I would change E3 as I stated: "Foremost limit for gun, holster and all equipment ***that's attached to belt*** behind the hip bone."

The additional 4 words in E3 combined with the modified 5.2.4 hopefully would make it clear that mags in pockets would not be subject to the behind hip bone requirement like the equipment one attaches to their belt.

I like that you are trying to make it clear that mags not on the belt are not subject to the behind the hip bone requirement, but consider the all mags on table start: The SS or Prod shooter goes up to the table and starts stuffing mags into the waist band of his pants, or into pockets that are in front of the hip bone, and then goes on to start shooting the rest of the stage retrieving and using them.

[Skydiver]

Since vests with front mounted magazine pockets haven't taken over in Open or Limited, I'm not too worried about them hurting the integrity of the sport in Production or Single Stack. FWIW, that vest looks a lot like my D-Shoot jacket and appears designed to give easy access to magazines attached to the belt rather than being designed to hold magazines itself.

Yup, primary purpose to to keep other gear accessible, but leave holster and pouches unencumbered. During a all mags on table start, though, it may be faster to sweep all mags into a vest or vest pocket rather than trying to insert the mags into individual pouches.

And that's a problem? And if so, is it a problem for SS and Production shooters but not L10/Lim/Open shooters?

Yes, it's a problem if all equipment must remain behind the hipbone for SS and Production shooters. But I see now where you are headed where it's only equipment on the belt that must remain behind the hipbone. Good job!

[JakeMartens]

What if this rule...

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

...just became this?

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty.

Going to change Appendix D, Item 12 and E3 then too?

Keep Appendix D the same, change E3 to say "Foremost limit for gun, holster and all equipment that's attached to belt behind the hip bone."

So now we are going to change a couple of rules?

So it will be okay to have a shirt say with 5 pockets across the front and I can reload from them?

If Gary is going to sew his pockets shut, someone is going to come up with "competition apparel" that will have "pockets" on it to reload from.

Is this really an unintended consequence?

5.2.4 has changed and with the lastest update it is obvious that

providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

was added as a consequence, cites the rule and the what the call will be, how is that unintended? How is that a gotcha? It is right there in the book just like every other rule. The way that it is written doesn't need anymore clarification then any of our other rules does it.

"Make Ready" Starts a course of fire

"Range is Clear" Ends a course of fire

5.2.4 tells you that you can use a mag from your pocket as long as you don't violate division specific placement, if you do then 6.2.5.1 tells you that you go to open

for a brand new shooter

is the "180" intuitive?

is moving without your finger on the trigger intuitive?

is only loading your new "production gun" to 10 rounds when the mags hold 17+ intuitive?

is a 5inch single stack with a bull barrel not being allowed in single stack intuitive?

This was put in place and Amidon answered a question in Front Sight about it, has there been an interputation or a clarification given or just the question answered?

SS Nationals 358 competitors, only 6 end up in open, anyone know if any of the .016% were related to putting or pulling a mag from front pocket?

[spanky]

I "rewrote" the rule a couple pages back. Anyone see any potential unintended consequences there?