Getting bumped to open from production

[jar]

How about we learn from that incident and fix the rule now?

That is a good idea.

I will send my Area Director an email.

Have you done so already?

I'm shooting Area 7 with him on Sunday. I'm planning to ask about it then. With my mags in my back pockets.

[DrawandDuck]

so, deesn't diminish his position as one of the top shooters in the sport.

[Skydiver]

As for changing the rules and reprinting the book,how many members do not have access to a computer and printer? Stop printing the rule book, put a large notice on the website stating that the rules are available on line and are in a printable format. Updates could be quarterly and if handled properly only a replacement page would need to be reprinted.

Just because WE have computers to play on the internet should not mean that all of USPSA's members should be required to have computers to get rules updates. This sounds like the Federal Government. At least wait until there is more than a 56K connection available.

LeRoy has it right.

Additionally, I believe that USPSA (as well as IPSC) deliberately slows down it's rules updates to long cycles (four years?). This is to let there be time to discuss rules changes prior to release, as well as let shooters and RO's be prepared for changes. Imagine buying a gun or doing some mod on a gun now which is valid in the rules, and finding out 3 months later that the gun or mod is illegal for the intended division.

Yes, NROI posts rulings and clarifications from time to time, but this is often to support or expand on existing rules, rather than create brand new ones.

Personally, I think it would be great is there is a ruling that gets posted that fixes/changes 5.2.4 and/or 6.2.5.1 now rather than later. The fear of the unknown kicks in, though, as to how badly misworded the new rule can be written if there isn't any wide review before publication. Possibly more unintended consequences like bringing us back to the 2004 rules that require exhausting pouches first before using pockets, but also allowed staging mags on the COF before the start signal.

[West Texas Granny]

I will never bump someone to open just because they put there mag in there front pocket after the unload and show clear. Ever! Does not change the out come of the stage. (I will inform them that they should put the mag in there back pocket).

What other Rules do you choose to ignore?

Excuse me for asking the obvious. When I unload and show the weapon clear the shooting is over and done with. So why does it matter where you put the mag from your weapon.

[Skydiver]

I will never bump someone to open just because they put there mag in there front pocket after the unload and show clear. Ever! Does not change the out come of the stage. (I will inform them that they should put the mag in there back pocket).

What other Rules do you choose to ignore?

Excuse me for asking the obvious. When I unload and show the weapon clear the shooting is over and done with. So why does it matter where you put the mag from your weapon.

Because the way the rules are currently written, where your equipment is at matters for the duration of the COF.

Look at it this way: You unload and show clear, and then you dropped the gun while trying to holster. The shooting is over and done with, but the rules state that a dropped gun during the COF is a DQ.

[ihatepickles]

Excuse me for asking the obvious. When I unload and show the weapon clear the shooting is over and done with. So why does it matter where you put the mag from your weapon.

The CoF is defined as beginning with "Make Ready" and ending with "Range is Clear". As written, the rule says storing ammo forward of the hip bone during the CoF is a bump to open. Hope that clears it up, your assumption that when the weapon is clear the CoF is done isn't quiet right. There's 2 steps after that before the CoF is over (Hammer Down & Holster and Range is Clear).

[jar]

I don't think anyone is arguing that that isn't what the rules say. We're arguing that the rules are stupid in this regard and need to be fixed.

[Jim Norman]

And having a published page that could be pasted over the page in the book would not be a bad thing. the rule could be corrected now as opposed to 2-4 years from now. For the record I am all for rules stability and would not want to see a short cycle of rulebooks. Our rules are pretty good as they stand. we need to make a few common sense changes such as the ones we are discussing for SS and Prod.

[Gary Stevens]

I don't think anyone is arguing that that isn't what the rules say. We're arguing that the rules are stupid in this regard and need to be fixed.

I guess that by extension a stupid rule was enacted by stupid people. Just speaking for myself, not a good way to win me over to your way of thinking.

Sometimes rules have unintended consequences. That doesn't mean they were enacted maliciously or stupidly for that matter.

[lugnut]

Sometimes rules have unintended consequences. That doesn't mean they were enacted maliciously or stupidly for that matter.

That about sums it nicely. I don't think anyone is taking anything away from the people that wrote the rules- it's gotta be a difficult job no doubt. It's just that I think most of us are concerned with getting dinged by a rule that wasn't meant to be interpreted the way it "might" be.

[jar]

I don't think anyone is arguing that that isn't what the rules say. We're arguing that the rules are stupid in this regard and need to be fixed.

I guess that by extension a stupid rule was enacted by stupid people. Just speaking for myself, not a good way to win me over to your way of thinking.

Sometimes rules have unintended consequences. That doesn't mean they were enacted maliciously or stupidly for that matter.

I didn't mean that at all. I meant stupid in the sense of "annoying or irritating; troublesome." I'm not saying the rule was enacted maliciously or stupidly. I'm saying that an unintended consequence led to a bad rule. I'm looking forward to hearing what the brilliant and illustrious members of the board think about changing the rule.

[Gary Stevens]

Just wondering what other rules the "brilliant and illustrious" members of the BOD should look at. By the way neither of these adjectives describes me.

How about accidentally loading 11 round in your Production mag?

How about having a magazine that is a cat's whisker too long?

How about having a gun that almost fits in the box, but not quiet?

How about having a gun that is 0.01 over weight?

How about chronographing 164.99 or even worse 124.99?

The front pocket ruling is consistent with Appendix D4 and D5 equipment position. Tough lick to be moved to Open for a simple mistake. However, all of the above examples, except the last, result in the same thing. Chronographing 124.99 moves you past Open to out of the match. Another tough lick.

[Flexmoney]

Gary,

Come on. This isn't a rule to hang all that on.

This one ended up bad, and needs to go. This isn't a "tough lick". This one kills children, and cute animals.

[aztecdriver]

Excuse me for asking the obvious. When I unload and show the weapon clear the shooting is over and done with. So why does it matter where you put the mag from your weapon.

It's actually a good question for some people that have a limited amount of experience in the rules and/or a lot of matches. The proper answer isn't so much, even though it's true that the rule states the COF is from "make ready" to "range is clear". The real reason the rules matter is that at ULASC, you are free to not do so and continue shooting. EVEN if you have unloaded the gun, you can reload and continue if you so choose. If you allow it WITHOUT a change to the current rules, you could theoretically be forced to do it at any other point in the COF, which violates the equipment rules. There is nothing different about what you can do as a shooter UNTIL you show clear AND the range officer give you "If clear, hammer down and holster" - that is when you can no longer shoot.

[Gary Stevens]

Gary,

Come on. This isn't a rule to hang all that on.

This one ended up bad, and needs to go. This isn't a "tough lick". This one kills children, and cute animals.

I respectfully disagree. All are rules and all have fairly drastic consequences. I shoot Single Stack and sometimes Production. I am aware of the rule and have the ability to avoid getting bumped to Open because of it. It always makes me shake my head when a shooter screws up and the immediate reaction is we need a rule change because of it.

[Flexmoney]

Right...you are aware of the rule. That is the difference here.

The layman has no chance.

This one is completely non intuitive.

This one needs to be looked at through the eye of the 10-20 new shooters that showed up at the local range. If we look at it through our own (experienced) eyes, then we risk seeing that the fallout here is beyond the intention.

[Leftridge]

Right...you are aware of the rule. That is the difference here.

The layman has no chance.

This one is completely non intuitive.

This one needs to be looked at through the eye of the 10-20 new shooters that showed up at the local range. If we look at it through our own (experienced) eyes, then we risk seeing that the fallout here is beyond the intention.

+ 1

[Nik Habicht]

Gary,

Come on. This isn't a rule to hang all that on.

This one ended up bad, and needs to go. This isn't a "tough lick". This one kills children, and cute animals.

I respectfully disagree. All are rules and all have fairly drastic consequences. I shoot Single Stack and sometimes Production. I am aware of the rule and have the ability to avoid getting bumped to Open because of it. It always makes me shake my head when a shooter screws up and the immediate reaction is we need a rule change because of it.

Gary,

I think you were on the board at the time that the max 10 rounds in any mag during the course of fire was changed to "after the start signal." Did you think that was a bad move?

Do you think that amending this rule -- in a way that a) doesn't interfere with competitive equity and removes the gotcha of pulling the initial mag from the front pocket on a loaded gun start/putting the last mag removed at unload and show clear into the front pocket -- is a bad idea? Are there potential consequences I'm missing?

I've been playing in Production since 2002, I've run a club and later a section since 2003 --- I'm having a harder time than I need to, trying to grow the sport with portions of rules like this in place....

I'll enforce it, and I'll explain it until it's changed, to the best of my ability -- but this one's difficult.....

[badchad]

I respectfully disagree. All are rules and all have fairly drastic consequences. I shoot Single Stack and sometimes Production. I am aware of the rule and have the ability to avoid getting bumped to Open because of it. It always makes me shake my head when a shooter screws up and the immediate reaction is we need a rule change because of it.

Is it true you had to sew your front pockets shut to avoid getting bumped to Open?

[SDM]

How do you know where in the front pocket the magazine was? I have some pants/shorts that if the mag is pushed against the seam, will be behind my first pouch. If it's pushed to the front, it's well in front of the point of the hip.

For the time being MDs need to address this during the shooters meeting. If I travel, pay for a room, match fee, ammo, etc. then get bumped to open for putting my last mag in my pocket (rather than dropping in mud or dust), I'd be a little upset. Probably have my "What I hate" thread closed for being shooting related

[vluc]

Right...you are aware of the rule. That is the difference here.

The layman has no chance.

This one is completely non intuitive.

This one needs to be looked at through the eye of the 10-20 new shooters that showed up at the local range. If we look at it through our own (experienced) eyes, then we risk seeing that the fallout here is beyond the intention.

If the basic restrictions for SS and Production are behind the hip, make everything related to it behind the hip - no front pockets. Keeps it in line with current rules, very intuitive - rules say behind the hipbones. Once you put in the exception of "after the start signal", you create confusion. Remove "after the start signal" since so many shooters think that is when the COF begins versus "Make Ready". Simple and easy to understand.

Edited September 10, 2011 by vluc

[JakeMartens]

Remove "after the start signal" since so many shooters think that is when the COF begins versus "Make Ready". Simple and easy to understand.

How does it create confusion if you read the rest of the rule,

providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).[/i]

There are 4 other divisions, that do not have a restriction of pulling or putting a mag in a pocket in front of the hip bone which the first part of the 5.2.4 addresses, the last part then addresses Single Stack and Production. It also not only gives specifics, Appendix D, Item 12, (which then takes you to a Diagram, picture for the layman) it also cites the result of violating the rule with the consequences of 6.2.5.1.

And if most shooters in this sport don't know the range commands and what they mean, then shame on them, and shame on you for not explaining it or enforcing the rules as they are.

[Jim Norman]

People are making a comparison between the 11 vs 10 rounds in a mag and the mag in the front pocket rules. Good, they both have the same result and while the first has been changed, the second has not. Now here is the problem, the original rule said 10, PERIOD, now we can have 11 BEFORE the start signal. I now of more than one shooter that had his first mag loaded to 11 came up to a stage where it was an unloaded start and wound up in Open. with the old rule he would not. Once we change the (if we change) the rule to allow the front pocket before the Start Signal and after ULSC, but before Holster we have to realize that someone somewhere WILL have his barney mag in the front pocket and run out of ammo and pull out that Barney and go to Open. We need to be prepared to defend the new rule, this will happen.

That said, I am in favor of allowing the Barney Mag to be in the front pocket or shirt pocket or Teeth for that matter at Make Ready but not after BEEP and then again at ULSC ONLY IF the shooter does not fire another shot. If he stuffs the mag in his front pocket and then reloads and fires a shot, he goes to Open.

[Gary Stevens]

I respectfully disagree. All are rules and all have fairly drastic consequences. I shoot Single Stack and sometimes Production. I am aware of the rule and have the ability to avoid getting bumped to Open because of it. It always makes me shake my head when a shooter screws up and the immediate reaction is we need a rule change because of it.

Is it true you had to sew your front pockets shut to avoid getting bumped to Open?

IPSC/USPSA shooters are always inovative. I call it insurance until I can train myself to quit doing something I have been doing for about 30 years. I approach this just like the other violations I listed. I load over minimum power factor. I buy factory 9mm that is over minimum power factor and check it over the chrono. I bought a mag guage to check my magazines for length. I check my gun in the USPSA box before attending a match. And most importantly I read the rules and ask questions when I am not sure.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Gary Stevens

[Gary Stevens]

How do you know where in the front pocket the magazine was? I have some pants/shorts that if the mag is pushed against the seam, will be behind my first pouch. If it's pushed to the front, it's well in front of the point of the hip.

For the time being MDs need to address this during the shooters meeting. If I travel, pay for a room, match fee, ammo, etc. then get bumped to open for putting my last mag in my pocket (rather than dropping in mud or dust), I'd be a little upset. Probably have my "What I hate" thread closed for being shooting related

If you remember, if you were there, when I was RM last year at Area 8 I did just that during the shooters meeting.