Getting bumped to open from production

[CZinSC]

Off topic: Here's a current law in WA state: RCW 46.61.665 put in around 1979: It shall be unlawful for any person to operate a motor vehicle upon the highways of this state when such person has in his or her embrace another person which prevents the free and unhampered operation of such vehicle. Operation of a motor vehicle in violation of this section is prima facie evidence of reckless driving.

ROFL, I have to show that to a guy at work. His son got pulled over two months ago down in Myrtle Beach..for going 105mph in a 55 zone, after drinking, with....wait for it...his girlfriend on his lap!

[Nik Habicht]

So the rewrite will look like this:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire after the start signal, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

This will fix all ills, no?

I'm not getting on board will changing what happens at ULSC. There is nothing that changes with the competitor state at that point, and we don't WANT that changing. They're still afforded the ability to fire, just because they MAY be ULSC, doesn't mean they have to. Put the discharge mag in the back pocket.

I'm thinking:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, after the start signal and prior to "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

Once that command is given, the competitor is prohibited from firing another shot, with the consequence of a match DQ....

Nik, not quite. After that command, the cof is still not over until the person actually holsters the weapon. There was a discussion on here about that, and that was the ruling, dropping the gun and getting DQ'd, but if it fell out of the holster it was no dq. So, the way I see it, until the gun is holstered, you are still in the COF, and therefore are under the rules for the COF. Placing a mag in the front pocket of your pants before holstering is a trip to open...

But the solution is simple....Don't put mags (or ammo) in your front pocket if you are shooting SS or Production...

Grumpy,

the course of fire also begins prior to the start signal -- but nothing that counts for score can happen....

Essentially, the shooting happens between the start signal and ICHDH......

I don't want to move people to Open for silly nonsense like this --- this really does remind me of the (fortunately now changed) barney mag rule....

[spanky]

Keep in mind I have no dog in this hunt. I've never stored or retrieved from/to my front pocket. i make ready from my 6th mag pouch (i have more "real estate" than aztecdriver does ) and when I ULSC my mag goes into my front pouch. Simple as pie.

That said, my suggestion;

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor retrieves a magazine from a location that fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire after the start signal, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

Edited September 8, 2011 by spanky

[LPatterson]

Since this is a problem that needs correcting by the Board of Directors through a rules change, it is probably not a good idea to let anyone on this forum think the Nationals CRO/RO staff will let a minor oops/brain fade slide. There is no Open Division available at the Limited/Production/Revolver Nationals and RM's will make final decisions for any disputed calls. A Course of fire starts with "Make Ready" and ends with "Range Is Clear", enough said about this matter.

Be safe and see you there.

[spanky]

I sent an e-mail to my AD about this.

[Strick]

Ok so here are the rules that are causing all this (unless I am missing something, which is very possible)

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

So don't put or pull a mag from your front pocket, it is a rule.

At 'make ready' I can have all my mags loaded to full mag capacity (16) as long as I doown load them before the "beep". At 'make ready' I can load with a mag that has 11 rounds in it. I can do a lot of things prior to the beep that would not bump me to open since the rulebook clearly says "after the start signal"

Taking a mag out of your front pocket is one of those things since 5.2.4 above clearly states that During the course of fire, after the start signal[/b], not just during the course of fire, where I have to carry mags. At ULSC that is a little different.

[Graham Smith]

Just out of curiosity. I know that the description of when a COF starts and ends has changed - which has a few consequences that may not have been fully considered. Could this be one?

The common-sense part of my mind says that this rule is excessive and could easily be changed, but the logical part of my mind says no. The current rule as to when a COF starts and ends is clear and should apply across the board to everything. To make exceptions to this is to make it more complicated for both shooters and RO's.

But just thinking out loud for a moment. If I take the mag out of my pocket as I walk to the line (which is what I do) so that it is in my hand when Make Ready is given, am I not then in violation of the same rule because the mag is not behind my hip?

[vluc]

But just thinking out loud for a moment. If I take the mag out of my pocket as I walk to the line (which is what I do) so that it is in my hand when Make Ready is given, am I not then in violation of the same rule because the mag is not behind my hip?

As we were told, the hand is not a retention device so you can have it in your hand. If you want to be extra careful, have the hand and mag behind your back!

[LPatterson]

There is nothing in the rules to prohibit you from carrying a mag in your hand moving to the initial shooting position. And the restriction has been removed about having a mag in hand during the walk through.

It would appear the easiest way to correct the confusion is to remove "after the start signal" from 5.2.4. This simple change would restore the Course Of Fire to the "Make Ready" command and the remainder of 5.2.4 instructs how and where ammunnition and loading devices may be carried.

[JakeMartens]

Ok so here are the rules that are causing all this (unless I am missing something, which is very possible)

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

So don't put or pull a mag from your front pocket, it is a rule.

At 'make ready' I can have all my mags loaded to full mag capacity (16) as long as I doown load them before the "beep". At 'make ready' I can load with a mag that has 11 rounds in it. I can do a lot of things prior to the beep that would not bump me to open since the rulebook clearly says "after the start signal"

Taking a mag out of your front pocket is one of those things since 5.2.4 above clearly states that During the course of fire, after the start signal[/b], not just during the course of fire, where I have to carry mags. At ULSC that is a little different.

Except for this part

providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

[vluc]

There is nothing in the rules to prohibit you from carrying a mag in your hand moving to the initial shooting position. And the restriction has been removed about having a mag in hand during the walk through.

It would appear the easiest way to correct the confusion is to remove "after the start signal" from 5.2.4. This simple change would restore the Course Of Fire to the "Make Ready" command and the remainder of 5.2.4 instructs how and where ammunition and loading devices may be carried.

+1

[Gary Stevens]

There is nothing in the rules to prohibit you from carrying a mag in your hand moving to the initial shooting position. And the restriction has been removed about having a mag in hand during the walk through.

It would appear the easiest way to correct the confusion is to remove "after the start signal" from 5.2.4. This simple change would restore the Course Of Fire to the "Make Ready" command and the remainder of 5.2.4 instructs how and where ammunnition and loading devices may be carried.

Confused, but what else is new. What does "restore the Course of Fire to the "Make Ready" command..." mean? That starts the course of fire now. What are we restoring from?

[LPatterson]

Gary, I am confused also by the 1st sentence of 5.2.4 "During the course of fire, after the start signal ..... , a competitor may also carry additional magazines ... in apparel pockets and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the the requirements of Appendix D, item 12. We have a defined start of the course of fire in 8.3.1 whereas the start signal is defined in 8.3.4. The use of both terms in the same sentence is what causes my confusion. So which clause of the sentence is the one that would cause a competitor to be moved to Open division. It appears there is also some confusion about putting a mag or ammo in a front pocket after IYAF,U&SC but before "Range Is Clear"

Perhaps restore was the wrong word since the COF used to start with the "Start Signal" and now it is "Make Ready". So how about removing some unintended confusion by removing the 2nd clause of the 1st sentence of 5.2.4.

Perhaps it is time for the new Board of Directors to review and update problem rules with a simple change notice instead of a new printing as in July 2010. The military has for years printed change pages and in some cases an overwrite of sentences within a paragraph. If an agency with unlimited funds (DOD $500 Billion), then perhaps a limited fund association of members should look at most cost effective ways to make changes.

[Jim Norman]

As for changing the rules and reprinting the book,how many members do not have access to a computer and printer? Stop printing the rule book, put a large notice on the website stating that the rules are available on line and are in a printable format. Updates could be quarterly and if handled properly only a replacement page would need to be reprinted.

[spanky]

Gary, I am confused also by the 1st sentence of 5.2.4 "During the course of fire, after the start signal ..... , a competitor may also carry additional magazines ... in apparel pockets and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the the requirements of Appendix D, item 12. We have a defined start of the course of fire in 8.3.1 whereas the start signal is defined in 8.3.4. The use of both terms in the same sentence is what causes my confusion. So which clause of the sentence is the one that would cause a competitor to be moved to Open division. It appears there is also some confusion about putting a mag or ammo in a front pocket after IYAF,U&SC but before "Range Is Clear"

Perhaps restore was the wrong word since the COF used to start with the "Start Signal" and now it is "Make Ready". So how about removing some unintended confusion by removing the 2nd clause of the 1st sentence of 5.2.4.

Perhaps it is time for the new Board of Directors to review and update problem rules with a simple change notice instead of a new printing as in July 2010. The military has for years printed change pages and in some cases an overwrite of sentences within a paragraph. If an agency with unlimited funds (DOD $500 Billion), then perhaps a limited fund association of members should look at most cost effective ways to make changes.

IMO it shouldn't matter if they are carried in the front pocket as long as they are not retrieved for use.

[Squishy]

I will never bump someone to open just because they put there mag in there front pocket after the unload and show clear. Ever! Does not change the out come of the stage. (I will inform them that they should put the mag in there back pocket).

[Singlestack]

I will never bump someone to open just because they put there mag in there front pocket after the unload and show clear. Ever! Does not change the out come of the stage. (I will inform them that they should put the mag in there back pocket).

What other Rules do you choose to ignore?

[DrawandDuck]

I will never bump someone to open just because they put there mag in there front pocket after the unload and show clear. Ever! Does not change the out come of the stage. (I will inform them that they should put the mag in there back pocket).

What other Rules do you choose to ignore?

I look at it like this...when is the last time a cop wrote you a ticket to 2 mph over the posted limit? Probably not many as there are pleanty of other laws to be concerned(which most are)BUT there are a few "gung ho/stick it to you types" out there that will just because they can.........Same with RO's unfortunately.

[Nik Habicht]

I will never bump someone to open just because they put there mag in there front pocket after the unload and show clear. Ever! Does not change the out come of the stage. (I will inform them that they should put the mag in there back pocket).

What other Rules do you choose to ignore?

I look at it like this...when is the last time a cop wrote you a ticket to 2 mph over the posted limit? Probably not many as there are pleanty of other laws to be concerned(which most are)BUT there are a few "gung ho/stick it to you types" out there that will just because they can.........Same with RO's unfortunately.

So, ROs should be asking each competitor which rules they should ignore? [/devils advocate mode.....] :P

I don't like rules of this type.....

I also realize that we got the 11 round barney mag (on unloaded starts) because an RO at the Nationals enforced the existing rule, which was "no more than 10 rounds in a mag during the course of fire" for Production and Limited. Glock was (one of?) the major sponsor at the Factory Gun Nats that year, and one of their shooters was moved to Open for loading with an 11 round mag, on a loaded gun stage. Open wasn't recognized.

Mike Voight was not happy with the CRO on the stage. The CRO made the right call, under the rules.

As a result, the rules got changes. That's the right way to effect change, not by ignoring what we don't like.....

[jar]

How about we learn from that incident and fix the rule now?

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

[Flexmoney]

How about we learn from that incident and fix the rule now?

That is a good idea.

I will send my Area Director an email.

Have you done so already?

[DrawandDuck]

I will never bump someone to open just because they put there mag in there front pocket after the unload and show clear. Ever! Does not change the out come of the stage. (I will inform them that they should put the mag in there back pocket).

What other Rules do you choose to ignore?

I look at it like this...when is the last time a cop wrote you a ticket to 2 mph over the posted limit? Probably not many as there are pleanty of other laws to be concerned(which most are)BUT there are a few "gung ho/stick it to you types" out there that will just because they can.........Same with RO's unfortunately.

So, ROs should be asking each competitor which rules they should ignore? [/devils advocate mode.....] :P

I don't like rules of this type.....

Mike Voight was not happy with the CRO on the stage. The CRO made the right call, under the rules.

As a result, the rules got changes. That's the right way to effect change, not by ignoring what we don't like.....

Well the Nats are coming up, think you could talk Dave into putting a magazine in his front pocket??? In the spirt of things I will be in GA this weekend and will purchase a Ice Cream Cone and place it in back pocket on Sunday and go find a cop to see if he will give me a ticket, then I will try to get that law changed.

[lugnut]

How about we learn from that incident and fix the rule now?

That is a good idea.

I will send my Area Director an email.

Have you done so already?

jar- let's talk with Rob after A7. I don't want to bring it up now... in case at the ULSC I mistakenly put my mag in my front pocket this weekend!

[LPatterson]

As for changing the rules and reprinting the book,how many members do not have access to a computer and printer? Stop printing the rule book, put a large notice on the website stating that the rules are available on line and are in a printable format. Updates could be quarterly and if handled properly only a replacement page would need to be reprinted.

Just because WE have computers to play on the internet should not mean that all of USPSA's members should be required to have computers to get rules updates. This sounds like the Federal Government. At least wait until there is more than a 56K connection available.

[JakeMartens]

I will never bump someone to open just because they put there mag in there front pocket after the unload and show clear. Ever! Does not change the out come of the stage. (I will inform them that they should put the mag in there back pocket).

What other Rules do you choose to ignore?

I look at it like this...when is the last time a cop wrote you a ticket to 2 mph over the posted limit? Probably not many as there are pleanty of other laws to be concerned(which most are)BUT there are a few "gung ho/stick it to you types" out there that will just because they can.........Same with RO's unfortunately.

So, ROs should be asking each competitor which rules they should ignore? [/devils advocate mode.....] :P

I don't like rules of this type.....

Mike Voight was not happy with the CRO on the stage. The CRO made the right call, under the rules.

As a result, the rules got changes. That's the right way to effect change, not by ignoring what we don't like.....

Well the Nats are coming up, think you could talk Dave into putting a magazine in his front pocket??? In the spirt of things I will be in GA this weekend and will purchase a Ice Cream Cone and place it in back pocket on Sunday and go find a cop to see if he will give me a ticket, then I will try to get that law changed.

Except Dave doesn't work for Glock anymore