Ted Murphy Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Hello, I was lectured about using my front pockets to either load from or unload to while shooting production. I was told to do so was to be bumped to open. The rangemaster at the sanctioned match showed me in the rulebook where it says this, and my Level I RO instructor covered it in my RO seminar. I understand this is the rule and will not argue the point. What I would like to know is how to get such an absolutely stupid rule changed? It would seem only a small application of common sense is required here. That, or I can start carrying my barney mag prison style... Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Send a letter or call your Area Director & the USPSA President. State your case and ask for them to consider fixing it at the next BoD meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yargne Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 The rule is a bit absurd, but it is what it is. Practice putting everything in your back pocket and be done with it.(or sew the front ones shut) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Hello, I was lectured about using my front pockets to either load from or unload to while shooting production. I was told to do so was to be bumped to open. The rangemaster at the sanctioned match showed me in the rulebook where it says this, and my Level I RO instructor covered it in my RO seminar. I understand this is the rule and will not argue the point. What I would like to know is how to get such an absolutely stupid rule changed? It would seem only a small application of common sense is required here. That, or I can start carrying my barney mag prison style... Ted Ted, Send Harry an e-mail. Consider copying the rest of the board of directors. Consider drafting an improved version of the rule for their consideration, as part of the text.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 This rule also applies to Single Stack. It really needs a simple change to add in a line "mags carried in the front pocket may not be used after the start signal'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 This rule also applies to Single Stack. It really needs a simple change to add in a line "mags carried in the front pocket may not be used after the start signal'. I've sent an email and a letter to my area director with nearly the same wording. I also included the scenario of stuffing the mag and chambered round after unload and show clear into the pocket in my note. This is an obvious boneheaded consequence of a rule that never intended to be so obtuse. This forum is great for discussions and getting the word out, but I sometimes feel like people just gripe on here and don't followup with their ADs to make a difference. (Not a comment I'm directing at you Jim) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Oh, and for others that are unaware: contact your area director Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick_L Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 The rule is a bit absurd, but it is what it is. Practice putting everything in your back pocket and be done with it.(or sew the front ones shut) So, the back pocket IS ok and only the front pants pocket is a problem? I shoot single stack and have been placing my Barney in my strong side front pocket to keep it out of the way. But I only shoot local matches and the RO's havent mentioned this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 The rule is a bit absurd, but it is what it is. Practice putting everything in your back pocket and be done with it.(or sew the front ones shut) So, the back pocket IS ok and only the front pants pocket is a problem? I shoot single stack and have been placing my Barney in my strong side front pocket to keep it out of the way. But I only shoot local matches and the RO's havent mentioned this. Back pocket is OK. Front pocket is OK if it is behind your hipbone, otherwise, it's not OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avezorak Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 The rule is a bit absurd, but it is what it is. Practice putting everything in your back pocket and be done with it.(or sew the front ones shut) So, the back pocket IS ok and only the front pants pocket is a problem? I shoot single stack and have been placing my Barney in my strong side front pocket to keep it out of the way. But I only shoot local matches and the RO's havent mentioned this. It has nothing to do with pockets and everything to do with location. If your magazine is ever stowed in front of your hipbone, you are not complying with Production or Single Stack rules. Its kinda silly that you cant stow them there between ULSC and your bag to reload, but a line was drawn and we have to stay on the right side of the line or play in open. I really hate this because when I shoot production, I love being able to store my start mag in the small front pocket of my 5.11's. But thats a no-go.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jar Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Bumping someone to open for a mag that isn't accessed from an illegal location during the CoF is a silly unintended consequence. I'll be shooting with my area director this weekend and I plan to suggest that the board look in to fixing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 (edited) Bumping someone to open for a mag that isn't accessed from an illegal location during the CoF is a silly unintended consequence. I'll be shooting with my area director this weekend and I plan to suggest that the board look in to fixing this. Similar to not being able to have 11 rounds in any magazine after the start signal. Say your Barney Mag with 11 is on your belt, you are shooting 06-03 can you count and decide to not use that magazine as you have 5 others. You could be placed in Open if it is known you have it even if you did not use it. (Appendix D4: Yes, maximum 10 rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal) Edited September 7, 2011 by vluc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 WOW! I thought this was beaten to death right before the Single Stack Nationals. To me the rule is simply stated. It is not ambiguous. There is no judgement call i.e., if ..... then .... otherwise ...... unless..... Sure the rule bugged me at first because like many folks wearing 5.11 I put my first mag in my front pocket. I stopped doing it after the rule was clarified. I vote to just leave it alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 WOW! I thought this was beaten to death right before the Single Stack Nationals. To me the rule is simply stated. It is not ambiguous. There is no judgement call i.e., if ..... then .... otherwise ...... unless..... Sure the rule bugged me at first because like many folks wearing 5.11 I put my first mag in my front pocket. I stopped doing it after the rule was clarified. I vote to just leave it alone. I would second that vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Take a look around. This is a forum where folks exchange information regularly...and there is much strife among the members here. There is just no way that the layman is going to be aware of this rule. And, being such a...technical...rule, we are really bending our customers over on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aglifter Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I shoot single-stack and production on occasion, and never had anyone mention where my Barney or start mag came from. I doubt anyone would even think that there would be a rule about the source of those two mags. It has no relevance, what-so-ever to the COF. It does need to be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I shoot single-stack and production on occasion, and never had anyone mention where my Barney or start mag came from. I doubt anyone would even think that there would be a rule about the source of those two mags. It has no relevance, what-so-ever to the COF. It does need to be changed. That address pulling out the barney mag. How about putting the last mag away? Specially in the case of ejecting the mag, putting it in a front pocket, discovering one a mike, and taking one more shot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 We are expecting them (customers?) to know a lot of other rules so why not this one? Isn't this more a matter of lack of information/instruction at a club level where rules should be eplained as it is discovered they are not being properly complied with. It appears a lot of the complaints are because people want to do it their way or it is easier their way. I used to get a lot of flack about the hip being the seam of my pants until the Appendix drawing showing the point of the hip. If a person would mark the front point of the hip and stand sideways in front of a mirror, they would know and be able to prove whether a mag in a front pocket is legal or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 It is what it is and until (if) it gets changed we need to follow the rule to the letter. We as shooters are responsible for reading and knowing the rules period. If we get caught not following a rule we get punished... sounds fair to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 WOW! I thought this was beaten to death right before the Single Stack Nationals. To me the rule is simply stated. It is not ambiguous. There is no judgement call i.e., if ..... then .... otherwise ...... unless..... Sure the rule bugged me at first because like many folks wearing 5.11 I put my first mag in my front pocket. I stopped doing it after the rule was clarified. I vote to just leave it alone. You don't see any ambiguity between 5.2.4 "after the start signal" and 6.2.5.1 "during the course of fire"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 It is what it is and until (if) it gets changed we need to follow the rule to the letter. We as shooters are responsible for reading and knowing the rules period. If we get caught not following a rule we get punished... sounds fair to me. It seems to me that there are 2 rules in conflict. Which one am I supposed to follow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I've been loading the first mag out of my back pocket since the rule change. However, at the ULSC, I always put it into my front pocket. I thought you just couldn't load from the front pocket. Pockets should be exempt, IMO. No one gets a competitive advantage from loading from a front pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 WOW! I thought this was beaten to death right before the Single Stack Nationals. To me the rule is simply stated. It is not ambiguous. There is no judgement call i.e., if ..... then .... otherwise ...... unless..... Sure the rule bugged me at first because like many folks wearing 5.11 I put my first mag in my front pocket. I stopped doing it after the rule was clarified. I vote to just leave it alone. You don't see any ambiguity between 5.2.4 "after the start signal" and 6.2.5.1 "during the course of fire"? I agree. I shot Area 4 using a barney mag and start mag out of the front pocket(single stack), but being stowed in the back pocket prior to beep. Guess I was lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 WOW! I thought this was beaten to death right before the Single Stack Nationals. To me the rule is simply stated. It is not ambiguous. There is no judgement call i.e., if ..... then .... otherwise ...... unless..... Sure the rule bugged me at first because like many folks wearing 5.11 I put my first mag in my front pocket. I stopped doing it after the rule was clarified. I vote to just leave it alone. You don't see any ambiguity between 5.2.4 "after the start signal" and 6.2.5.1 "during the course of fire"? I agree. I shot Area 4 using a barney mag and start mag out of the front pocket(single stack), but being stowed in the back pocket prior to beep. Guess I was lucky. During the course of fire starts at "Make Ready" and ends at "Range is Clear". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Texas Granny Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 The rule is a bit absurd, but it is what it is. Practice putting everything in your back pocket and be done with it.(or sew the front ones shut) So, the back pocket IS ok and only the front pants pocket is a problem? I shoot single stack and have been placing my Barney in my strong side front pocket to keep it out of the way. But I only shoot local matches and the RO's havent mentioned this. Back pocket is OK. Front pocket is OK if it is behind your hipbone, otherwise, it's not OK. A front pocket behind the hip bone is a back pocket. Agree it's a silly rule and can see no reason for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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