Getting bumped to open from production

[Poppa Bear]

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise

in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise

the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

As I read this the two are tied together. Under 5.2.4 you are compliant when you come to the line with all mags on your belt OR in an apparel pocket that meets the requirements of App D, Item 12. At the command "Make Ready" you need to be compliant with App D, Item 12 or be bumped to open under 6.2.5.1. If the WSB calls for the gun or mags to be in a different location for the start signal then you are authorized under 5.2.4 to move the gun and mags to that location after the COF has started but prior to the start signal. So unless the WSB calls for a non-compliant location for the mags, you need to be fully compliant at the start of the COF, during the COF and up to the end of the COF.

You're forgetting one important phrase:

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, ...

I read the part in BLUE as a separate portion of the rule. Mainly you may use apparel pockets as long as they are compliant with Appendix D, Item 12. The first part says unless specified otherwise in the WSB ALL mags must be on your belt. The part in Blue was added to allow you to use apparel pockets if you did not have enough pouches. The words "After the start signal" are there to allow you to move your magazines and gun after the start of the COF but prior to the start signal for any COF requiring off body gun and magazine placement. What the part in BLUE does not allow you to do is to specify "All magazines must be carried in your front pocket" SS and Production could not comply because the part in BLUE says that the apparel pockets must comply. So as I read that part you can be compliant putting the all magazines on a barrel in front of you but are not allowed to place them in your front pocket, because the part in blue specifies that you can only prohibit apparel carry.

[Jim Norman]

- I come to the line and realize my holster is a little too far forward...RO says "make ready"...I make ready including fixing the position of my holster...all legal, no harm no foul, right?

Actually Bob, If I am correct this would place you in Open. The RO says Make ready, the COF has begun and your holster is forward of your hip, you are in Open. If however the you show up tot he line and the RO were to say, 'Hey, Bob, Your holster is a bit out of place, want to fix it?' and you do and THEN he says MR, you are OK.

Then again, I could be wrong.

[aztecdriver]

- I come to the line and realize my holster is a little too far forward...RO says "make ready"...I make ready including fixing the position of my holster...all legal, no harm no foul, right?

Actually Bob, If I am correct this would place you in Open. The RO says Make ready, the COF has begun and your holster is forward of your hip, you are in Open. If however the you show up tot he line and the RO were to say, 'Hey, Bob, Your holster is a bit out of place, want to fix it?' and you do and THEN he says MR, you are OK.

Then again, I could be wrong.

sounds like you are on track, no?

5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. If a retaining strap is attached to a holster or magazine pouch, it

must be applied or closed prior to issuance of the “Standby” command.

[Rob Boudrie]

The following motion was passed by the USPSA Board in an on-line meeting yesterday:

President moves the BOD to direct the DNROI to issue the following interpretation.

Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty)

[spanky]

Good news.

[Flexmoney]

Well done.

[Nik Habicht]

The following motion was passed by the USPSA Board in an on-line meeting yesterday:

President moves the BOD to direct the DNROI to issue the following interpretation.

Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty)

First: Thank you!

Second, a question:

So, retrieving a mag from a pocket to drop the hammer on a mag-safety gun is o.k., but placing a mag in a front pocket during unloading in still a move to open?

Retrieved......

Interpretation might need "...or placed in a front pocket" while unloading at the end of a COF....

[steel1212]

See some good can happen with 9 pages of post on enos over a rule lol.

ETA: When will this be online or is it already? IE if somebody is at a range and a RO doesn't read enos?

Edited September 14, 2011 by steel1212

[spanky]

Looks like it's already online.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=51

[vluc]

Looks like it's already online.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=51

Effective 9-21-2011, just in time for the Production Nats.

[vluc]

See some good can happen with 9 pages of post on enos over a rule lol.

ETA: When will this be online or is it already? IE if somebody is at a range and a RO doesn't read enos?

LOL, probably because of Nats moreso than us!

RO's don't need to read here, just read NROI and USPSA to get the updates

Edited September 14, 2011 by vluc

[aztecdriver]

Looks like it's already online.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=51

Effective 9-21-2011, just in time for the Production Nats.

Well, that - and I think in general, they allow a week for communication, as I see a lot of 1 week delayed ruling from passing to effective, so I think they took appropriate actions so as NOT to have a problem at production nats. Kudos around.

[Thomas H]

The following motion was passed by the USPSA Board in an on-line meeting yesterday:

President moves the BOD to direct the DNROI to issue the following interpretation.

Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty)

First: Thank you!

Second, a question:

So, retrieving a mag from a pocket to drop the hammer on a mag-safety gun is o.k., but placing a mag in a front pocket during unloading in still a move to open?

Retrieved......

Interpretation might need "...or placed in a front pocket" while unloading at the end of a COF....

When I read that, my thoughts were:

1) initial loading from a front pocket is okay.

2) final unloading into a front pocket is okay. (because they specifically said "Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading."

3) don't have a mag in front of the hip bone during after initial loading or before final unloading, because that will put you in Open.

It did NOT occur to me that having an unloaded mag in a front pocket through the course of fire to drop the hammer on a mag-safety gun at the end would be legal---and I'm thinking it doesn't mean that. I'm thinking that any mag that is in front of your hip bone during the shooting part---after initial loading, and before the final unload---is still going to get you put in Open.

If I'm wrong, I'm fine with that---but your comment would not have occurred to me. Upon thought, it makes sense---but I don't know how many people would get that out of this interpretation.

Or maybe it is just me.

[Greg Bell]

The following motion was passed by the USPSA Board in an on-line meeting yesterday:

President moves the BOD to direct the DNROI to issue the following interpretation.

Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty)

Excellent! Thank you to everyone involved!

[racerba]

Second, a question:

So, retrieving a mag from a pocket to drop the hammer on a mag-safety gun is o.k., but placing a mag in a front pocket during unloading in still a move to open?

The way i read the ruling...it's OK to put mag in front pocket during unloading...because the question mentioned that...

[juan]

are we still trying to find a way to DQ somebody ?

the reply mention while unloading, is not a emty mag to drop the hammer part of unloading?

[spanky]

The following motion was passed by the USPSA Board in an on-line meeting yesterday:

President moves the BOD to direct the DNROI to issue the following interpretation.

Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty)

First: Thank you!

Second, a question:

So, retrieving a mag from a pocket to drop the hammer on a mag-safety gun is o.k., but placing a mag in a front pocket during unloading in still a move to open?

Retrieved......

Interpretation might need "...or placed in a front pocket" while unloading at the end of a COF....

It says "or while unloading." While I agree the ruling could use some wordsmithing, I think it's easy to infer what is intended.

[ihatepickles]

Nice work by the BOD, I'm glad to put it behind me.

[aztecdriver]

are we still trying to find a way to DQ somebody ?

the reply mention while unloading, is not a emty mag to drop the hammer part of unloading?

Considering it was never about DQ'ing in the first place???

Edited September 14, 2011 by aztecdriver

[juan]

are we still trying to find a way to DQ somebody ?

the reply mention while unloading, is not a emty mag to drop the hammer part of unloading?

Considering it was never about DQ'ing in the first place???

Im sorry I stand corrected,

it must have been faster to write DQ then bump to open.

give me a procedural for incompetence,

[want2race]

No procedural for you, but now your typing in Open.

[vluc]

Nice work by the BOD, I'm glad to put it behind me.

LOL! No pun intended I am sure.

[hf219]

The following motion was passed by the USPSA Board in an on-line meeting yesterday:

President moves the BOD to direct the DNROI to issue the following interpretation.

Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading. (e.g. a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty)

First: Thank you!

Second, a question:

So, retrieving a mag from a pocket to drop the hammer on a mag-safety gun is o.k., but placing a mag in a front pocket during unloading in still a move to open?

Retrieved......

Interpretation might need "...or placed in a front pocket" while unloading at the end of a COF....

Nik, it uses the language front pocket in the interpretation. Its language on this is pretty clear. Use a mag from your front pocket to load the gun or pull the mag out of the gun at ULSC and put it in your front pocket is a forgiven action.

I see how you are reading this though. And NO, if you were to pull a magazine out of your front pocket at ULSC or ICHD you would be bumped to open. The magazine would have been placed their either prior to the start buzzer or before the end of the COF. Your mags still need to be placed properly as your division requires. The only intention of this rule clarification is to allow someone walking up to the line to use the mag that they will load the gun with without penalty from their front pocket. Its also allowing someone to stow their magazine from their gun at the ULSC or ICHD commands in their front pocket without penalty.

I hope this clears that up, I understand how your reading this. The intent as written is to not complicate unloading or loading WITH penalty. The words could be changed a little to clarify and not mislead what you are reading though.

Edited September 14, 2011 by hf219

[Thomas H]

are we still trying to find a way to DQ somebody ?

the reply mention while unloading, is not a emty mag to drop the hammer part of unloading?

My point was simple---it seemed that they were trying to make sure people weren't getting bumped to Open for things that happened either before the shooting starts, or after the shooting ends. This, however, is different from things during the actual shooting. When I read it, it seemed to deal with pulling a mag out of a pocket to load, and putting it back to finally unload---and this seems separate from what people do/how they are while actually shooting.

As I said, now that it has been introduced, I can see the argument for having an empty mag for unloading that way---but I don't think the interpretation actually was about that situation. I'm fine with people changing my mind, but I don't think it reads that way.

That all being said, this entire discussion has been about how we can STOP people from being bumped to Open. After all, the rule was such that people should have been bumped before (whether it was happening or not). And now they aren't, due at least in part to our discussion. As such, saying "are we still trying to find a way to DQ somebody?" seems the exact opposite of what people have managed to do in this forum.

Back to the point: Does this interpretation seem to change what is allowed during the shooting part of a course if fire? (Weird to actually have to be specific about when we are talking about during the course of fire. )

[mikeg1005]

This is good.

I have a question though...

So my understanding... I walk up to then... "make ready"... I can now pull mags out of my front pocket to load my pistol.

When its all over... "If finished unload and show clear." I can now putm ags back into my front pocket when I unload my pistol.

Now my question.

Since it says its "Production and Single Stack equipment locations are NOT intended to complicate loading before the start signal or unloading." It is still ILLEGAL to have your barney mag in your front pocket after the start signal correct, as that mag is then considered a magazine instead of something related to loading/unloading the pistol?

Or can I now leave the barney in my front pocket as "not to complicate" loading?

Mike.

Edited September 14, 2011 by mikeg1005