Shooting with lower classed shooters

[shooting for M]

As a newer M class shooter I am the only one at the club that shoots every month. I think it does make me a bit complacent. When the guys come down from the surrounding areas I seem to push harder learn more and make more mistakes, but pushing is the only way to get better. On the other hand I like being able to help the newer guys, watching the lights come on is one of the better feelings you can get. The short of it has been expressed many times above, I shoot USPSA to have fun and shooters are some of the best people I know. Growing the sport, to me, is more important than how I do at a local match as long as I am still having fun.

To the new guys, ask questions but be aware of how close that person is to shooting. Help tape and set steel, and don't be afraid to help score after a few matches. My stage breakdown is not the best, so don't be afraid to ask why a "better" shooter is or is not doing something you are thinking of, you could help them! Or you may save yourself from doing something wrong. Oh yeah, to everyone, show up early to help set up and stay after to help tear down, if you like to shoot this will keep the match director interested.

My $.02

Jason

[aztecdriver]

If you look at posts throughout this forum, we appear to pride ourselves on how the new and lower class shooters get to shoot with the higher and highest levels, yet we encourage everyone else to shoot with better shooters.

If all I shoot with are better shooters, that helps me, but how does that help that new individual U/D/C shooter?

I think we all have a responsibility to pay it forward and start to incorporate new shooters into established squads of friend and buddies. How else do we encourage participation in setup, running matches and tear down?

+1 to this. Most upper level guys are very well honed and can push themselves. They know what they can do, what the COF is supposed to be done like, etc. They don't need examples, they are the examples - most of the time.

But I will tell you as a B shooter when I'm with a set of C/D/U level people, I'm working on different things in the match and while I'm missing some of the experience of not seeing a master or grandmaster run it - I also know what I should be doing generally on a stage as well. I take the opportunity to work with the up and comers, if they're willing to hear something, RO a bit, etc. My experience has been in general - it's the same for best.

[Hamm]

i am a new shooter and almost everyone i have shot with has been great from the bottom to the top shot with m's to u's like my self no one's run me off yet i look i lessen i past and they do to so if your shooting some were everyones not friendly come shoot with us. i really cant say if its good or bad but a lot of great people have helped me

[Still Praying]

I agree with most of you guys. I do the same thing. I'll leave my friends that I've been looking forward to shooting with all week to shoot with a newbee squad, so they don't hold up the match and help them to have a good time and be safe. The funny thing is, my first match win I was shooting with about 5 U's, 3 D's & 2 C's.

You will find some shooters GM to D who don't want to shoot with new shooters and they are usually the first ones to leave the match with out helping to take down the stages. Or doing as little as possible. When you do find the FEW like that. FIND ANOTHER SQUAD, I DO.

a lot of great people have helped me

And you have helped us in return.

Thanks Jason

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I will shoot with anyone. We all started as new shooters at some point so we can see what the newbies are going through. I ask questions and so should the new guys. That is what makes us better. I enjoy sharing the info I have collected over 4 years and really appreciate those that have helped me. So really their info is being carried on to the next new shooters through me. Kinda makes you feel warm and fuzzy I also believe you can learn from anyone as long as you are willing to learn. So I will shoot with any shooter as long as they are safe. Thanks, Eric

[CHA-LEE]

Even though its nice to have higher classed shooters on the squad to use as a bench mark for the stage runs, not having comparable skilled shooters on my squad does not affect my performance. Being able to figure out the best plan and executing that plan is a critical skill that must continually be honed and improved. When you shoot with lower classed shooters this puts your skills to the ultimate test because its all your plan and execution without it being “Polluted” by other good shooters idea’s, plans, or performances. Learning what does or doesn’t work in these conditions is priceless in my eyes.

I also believe that every shooter has the ability to provide some good feedback whether they realize it or not. Watching other shooters navigate the stage is a very effective tool in helping you hone your own plan. Especially when there are activated targets which require critical timing to engage things properly. Seeing what other shooters have challenges with during the stage runs is also good feedback on the difficulty of that portion of the stage. Being able to observe ANY skill level shooters navigate the stage is an advantage verses not being able to.

But as most others have already said, I would much rather squad with friends that I can enjoy the match with regardless of their class level verses shooting with people that make it not fun. I have seen many instances where the “Super Squad” turns into a grind due to the artificially inflated tension levels, ego’s, and expectations. That isn’t fun, so I choose not to participate on those squads.

[Jim Norman]

I bunch of C and D class shooters in a squad can really bog down a match. It takes them longer to shoot a stage, and it takes even longer to score the stage they just shot.

When us new D shooters pick a squad sheet to sign up on, and we know very few people, how are we to know what squad to sign up for? Unless everyone's classification is listed on the squad sheet, how do we know that us being there might break the camels back with us being too many?

This is actually a timely topic as I've struggled with not wanting to sign into the "wrong" squad. I get there early and then stand around hoping to see one of the few people I've shot with before show up. So, I've been wondering just what the proper etiquette is.

A couple thinks here. At the three clubs I shoot at the most, we squad the shooters. Yes you can have your group, but if we see a group that is definitely going to crash and burn, we make sure that there are experienced people with them. As for U,D,C&B shooters slowing up a match, A, M & GM s can do the same with all of the rituals and extra walk-thrus etc.

Since most of our time is spent shooting at club matches, not Areas and Nationals the best prizes we are likely to win are not covering our costs. This being the case, the best prizes I get are the fun times I have. Winning is fun, but the real winning is the fun, and the people. Some of the best times I have had at matches have been when I was on a squad with no one from my regular group. New people, new ideas, not bad. SOmeone else on this forum said it, "I came for the shooting, I stayed for the people"

[Maksim]

I bunch of C and D class shooters in a squad can really bog down a match. It takes them longer to shoot a stage, and it takes even longer to score the stage they just shot.

When us new D shooters pick a squad sheet to sign up on, and we know very few people, how are we to know what squad to sign up for? Unless everyone's classification is listed on the squad sheet, how do we know that us being there might break the camels back with us being too many?

This is actually a timely topic as I've struggled with not wanting to sign into the "wrong" squad. I get there early and then stand around hoping to see one of the few people I've shot with before show up. So, I've been wondering just what the proper etiquette is.

A couple thinks here. At the three clubs I shoot at the most, we squad the shooters. Yes you can have your group, but if we see a group that is definitely going to crash and burn, we make sure that there are experienced people with them. As for U,D,C&B shooters slowing up a match, A, M & GM s can do the same with all of the rituals and extra walk-thrus etc.

Since most of our time is spent shooting at club matches, not Areas and Nationals the best prizes we are likely to win are not covering our costs. This being the case, the best prizes I get are the fun times I have. Winning is fun, but the real winning is the fun, and the people. Some of the best times I have had at matches have been when I was on a squad with no one from my regular group. New people, new ideas, not bad. SOmeone else on this forum said it, "I came for the shooting, I stayed for the people"

+1 Jim. Was a pleasure to shoot with you.

[de03x7]

My wife and I just started shooting matches this year. We have one USPSA club in town and a local gun shop owner puts on a monthly steel match. We had never even watched a match before this summer but we have become addicted. The people who shoot these matches are the friendliest group of people I have ever met. I went to watch the USPSA match a couple months ago with no intention of shooting, I just wanted to see how things were done. I helped sit up targets and when sign up started I was asked why I hadn't signed up. I told them I was just there to watch and hadn't brought a gun along. One of the other shooters says that's ok I have an extra. I had shot steel matches with him earlier in the summer but other than that I didn't know him at all. He was a A class shooter and spent the whole day making sure that I had a good time and didn't do anything stupid. I tried to pay him for the ammo I shot but he wouldn't take anything, just told me I had to help help bring someone else in. I have since shot two more matches with them and my wife has shot one. It don't seem to matter if someone is U or GM they will give out pointers without making you feel like you are in their way or don't belong there.

[ima45dv8]

My wife and I just started shooting matches this year. We have one USPSA club in town and a local gun shop owner puts on a monthly steel match. We had never even watched a match before this summer but we have become addicted. The people who shoot these matches are the friendliest group of people I have ever met. I went to watch the USPSA match a couple months ago with no intention of shooting, I just wanted to see how things were done. I helped sit up targets and when sign up started I was asked why I hadn't signed up. I told them I was just there to watch and hadn't brought a gun along. One of the other shooters says that's ok I have an extra. I had shot steel matches with him earlier in the summer but other than that I didn't know him at all. He was a A class shooter and spent the whole day making sure that I had a good time and didn't do anything stupid. I tried to pay him for the ammo I shot but he wouldn't take anything, just told me I had to help help bring someone else in. I have since shot two more matches with them and my wife has shot one. It don't seem to matter if someone is U or GM they will give out pointers without making you feel like you are in their way or don't belong there.

That's awesome!

[Steven Cline]

I bunch of C and D class shooters in a squad can really bog down a match. .

I take exception to that statement. What makes a good match is a hard working squad that tapes and sets and if they take 30 or 40 seconds to shoot rather than 15, all that time is a wash when they get with it tapeing and setting. I may not shoot nor run as fast as the young pups but I tape and set with the best of them.

To be fair its how well the shooters work not their class.

Since I shoot 2 matches a month that have mostly Noobs and I'm the BigDawg, I have to say any safe, couterious, hard working shooter is a pleasure to shoot with, even if he or she takes 3 or 4 times as long to shoot the course of fire.

This is exactly right.

The re-set after each stage eats far more time than the individual time a shooter takes.

[cyburg]

Remember we are here to have fun, get new people interested in the sport and a lot of shooteres would like the assistance or be mentored. Hell, if I looked up to another shooter and I heard them complaining about new shooters and so on, it would probably turn me off.

What image do you want to project of the sport, fun, exciting and somthing you really enjoy or someone that complains about it all.

Local matchs are one thing and I understad big matches are different but how do you want to be seen?

[lrf]

I'm a new shooter and the experienced shooters I've been squadded with have been very kind and helpful. They don't ACT like they mind me so that's good enough for me!

I've got 5 matches under my belt now, and of course getting to run around and shoot guns is fun as hell, but, I've found that the people that shoot the local matches in area 5 Ohio are really nice and fun to be around. I've had some rookie frustrations but I always end up having fun at the end of the day!

Edited October 22, 2010 by lrf

[colt22man]

Lower class shooters still have great minds and ideas. Fundamentals may be lacking but they surprise me with course of fire gameplans. I like to shoot with A, M and GM shooters. I always learn a trick. However when I shoot with new shooters I am bombarded with questions and realize these competitors are at a stage in match maturity as I once was when I wanted to improve and better my game. I strive to better my game and I enjoy helping others improve their game.

[JAFO]

Being that I haven't left C class since I started, I may have a bit of a personal bias in this, but I also like shooting with all levels. I've been outperformed by unclassified shooters on many occassions. "U" does not always mean "novice". And sometimes new-to-the-sport shooters have some novel approaches to a stage that I hadn't thought of. And if you're friendly and helpful to them, you'll most often find them very willing to help with taping and teardown. It's always nice to see a new shooter that was in your squad for their first match show up consistently after that. That's when you know you've hooked another one.

[professor]

I'll shoot with just about anyone, any class, any division. What I won't do, more than once, is shoot with someone who demonstrated little regard for safety in their actions on that first occasion.

[9x45]

When you go pretty much every weekend, like Norco Running Gun, you get to know everyone at the local level, and end up shooting with your buddies. In my case,it's mostly higher classified shooters, but I always try to bring new people into the game to keep it going. As long as they don't do anything to scare me, and help out taping/setting, everyone is good. Personally I learn more by watching the GM's on video after the match than during.

[CenTX]

At the Mud Nationals in Tulsa, I was the only non M and GM shooter on the squad, I am a C shooter. They were the nicest, friendliest bunch of guys you could ever want to squad with. At least one of them, a past US and World Champion, made some suggestions to improve my shooting.

[EkuJustice]

If your on the ball and shoot your game, the people on the squad with you shouldn't distract you. Shot skeet matches in the past where you could usually have your own 5man squad but sometimes if not everyone went you would be on a mixed squad. I never had a problem with anyone I had ever shot with or ever felt they had any impact on my score. Concentrate when you walk up there and turn it off after the shot. In skeet especially, I saw more complaints about squads, targets, refs etc from people in the A or B range that thought they were better than they were than I ever saw from AAA shooters. Those at the top are at the top because they know how to shoot their game and avoid all the other things around them.

[Yagi]

Shooters from GM down to U does not bother me at all...When i go to a match.. i just play... i strategize...if i see something different i usually stick to my gameplan... most of the time if i change on the fly is when i get bogged down.

If a new shooter is next i just quietly get behind someone else while watching...

Edited December 2, 2010 by Yagi

[Powder Finger]

Hello: I will shoot with anyone. We all started as new shooters at some point so we can see what the newbies are going through. I ask questions and so should the new guys. That is what makes us better. I enjoy sharing the info I have collected over 4 years and really appreciate those that have helped me. So really their info is being carried on to the next new shooters through me. Kinda makes you feel warm and fuzzy I also believe you can learn from anyone as long as you are willing to learn. So I will shoot with any shooter as long as they are safe. Thanks, Eric

I think this is an important statement. I learned as much or more watching shooters of a lower or different skill set.

By paying attention to what they really do, many times you can see a similarity to something you also do. You may do it faster

than them, but may still be a bad habit or tactic.

You can get just as complacent around better shooters especially if your skill set won't allow you to do what they do.

[TNK]

As stated above, stage etiquette is more valuable than the classification of the shooters. To have everyone working together to make a match run smoothly from stage to stage is a great deed. To have more than one or two range officers on the squad is beautiful. Knowing how to have fun together without too many disputes or bickering is priceless.

[j1b]

So . . . . I really don't shoot much anymore. Nor do I post much anymore for that matter . . .

That said this little topic caught my attention and I just wanted to add one more piece of perspective - at least from my experience.

Depending on club and location, it's hit or miss whether or not the person who wins the match is shooting with the people that are competing with him or her for that win in the match. Point being that, at least for me personally, you kind of realize that not everyone in your squad is going to be competing with you in the match. So yeah, it doesn't bother me at all to be shooting with people classed below me. Like many, I always enjoy shooting with folks that challenge me so that I can get better. But I also have to realize that gaining improvement in my game is going to come from me. It's up to me. And if shooting with a U or D shooter limits my ability to improve then the limitation is in fact me - and not the people I'm shooting with.

And I learn from a lot of people about a lot of things. Seems I learn something from everyone in a squad, be they better shooters than me or not.

As has been stated, and well stated I might add, a little courtesy shown when someone is getting ready, or is visualizing, or is just frustrated - whatever - that should always be accounted for. No matter the "class" (yeah, there's a little play on words there) of the shooter.

Haven't been on in a while and saw my friend Vluc posted - quick shoutout to Vince! Hope you are enjoying this little snow we're getting

Jack

[vluc]

Haven't been on in a while and saw my friend Vluc posted - quick shoutout to Vince! Hope you are enjoying this little snow we're getting

Jack

Back at you, Jack. Holding a place for you on every squad I shoot with. Compared to last year, this isn't snow at all!