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gerritm   

Last time I looked it was USPSA.  Not just pistol. We should welcome all shooters within the association. If you are having fun and growing the sport it is a welcome addition. PCC is booming here around the Houston metro area. Good shooters are good shooters. Pistol or carbine. My observation is that the classes/classifiers don't make the shooter.

 

United

States

Practical

Shooting

Association.

 

gerritm

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Broncman   
5 minutes ago, gerritm said:

Last time I looked it was USPSA.  Not just pistol. We should welcome all shooters within the association. If you are having fun and growing the sport it is a welcome addition. PCC is booming here around the Houston metro area. Good shooters are good shooters. Pistol or carbine. My observation is that the classes/classifiers don't make the shooter.

 

United

States

Practical

Shooting

Association.

 

gerritm

 

Maybe if they ever get around to printing a new rule book it will not say "USPSA Handgun Competition Rule Book" right on the front cover.....

 

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OPENB   

Why do we keep trying to insult thread after thread? The division is here, it's popular, fun, & not leaving. 

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30 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

Because open shooters are getting their ass waxed for hoa 

Not really. Last major I shot in May, I was 5th and first PCC was 24th. 

Edited by echotango

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teros135   
26 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

Because open shooters are getting their ass waxed for hoa 

 

And this is where?

 

And who's been doing the insulting, from the beginning?

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Sarge   
1 hour ago, Nathanb said:

Because open shooters are getting their ass waxed for hoa 

That's not always the case. I don't care who beats me or who I beat unless they are shooting my division. And even then I don't lose much sleep over it. :)

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Old3GNR   

I'm an old Super Senior who dropped out of USPSA at least 10 years ago.  I bought a JP GMR-13 for Christmas and with PCC allowed, rejoined USPSA.  Shot 2 matches which had 2 classifiers each and ended up with a B card.  One of the classifiers had long targets and myself and another PCC shooter were 1st and 2nd overall.  Its really dependent  on stage design.  Pistols are faster to reload and much easier to shoot if you're leaning around a barricade on your weak side.  The last match I shot had stages that allowed me to set up and shoot a lot of targets without much movement.  I shot some at ranges I wouldn't have attempted with a pistol.  Gets back to stage design.

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Thomas H   
On 7/2/2017 at 11:09 PM, cody6477 said:

I have a hard time believing that anyone shooting handguns no better than B or C is going to have the skills to classify M or GM with a PCC, since they're being classified against other PCC shooters.  Maybe an occasional individual case, but seems likely to be a rare thing to me.

 

 

They aren't being classified "against other PCC shooters".  They are being classified against an objective standard that was created for people shooting Open handguns.  That's a actually a problem, because is it very easy to get a 100% score on certain classifiers (many of the Fixed Time classifiers that are incredibly difficult with a handgun are simple with a PCC, and anything WHO and SHO is much easier with a PCC), while at the same time, there are a number of classifiers in which it is ridiculously difficult to get even close to a good score (which set of classifiers normally include reloads, which are simply slower in PCC than in Open).

 

This isn't an argument against PCC in the slightest---there simply needs to be enough PCC classifier data to get their own set of HHF.  Since that doesn't exist yet, USPSA is using Open HFFs, and some people are achieving abnormally high runs (compared to their other classifications) due to the choice of classifier by their match directors.  I'm not saying it is happening often...but it is certainly true that if a PCC person ended up shooting these classifiers in a row:

99-14

06-07

99-47

99-40

08-05

08-06

13-03

99-02

 

....they would probably have a PCC classification that was significantly higher than their handgun classification.

 

We simply need more data to get a good set of PCC HHFs.

 

At no point is this an argument against PCC.  Far as I can tell, it is a growing division that people are truly enjoying shooting.

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@Thomas H don't forget anything with an uprange surrender start. (turning draw)

 

Starting with the weapon in your hands facing the targets on an El Prez might turn out to be a slight advantage, even though mag changes are slower.

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2 hours ago, Thomas H said:

They aren't being classified "against other PCC shooters".  They are being classified against an objective standard that was created for people shooting Open handguns.  That's a actually a problem, because is it very easy to get a 100% score on certain classifiers (many of the Fixed Time classifiers that are incredibly difficult with a handgun are simple with a PCC, and anything WHO and SHO is much easier with a PCC), while at the same time, there are a number of classifiers in which it is ridiculously difficult to get even close to a good score (which set of classifiers normally include reloads, which are simply slower in PCC than in Open).

ision that people are truly enjoying shooting.

 

As someone who is shooting PCC and loving it, I can say that this is very accurate.  I'm currently at 91%.  I have some classifiers that I shot extremely well on, that didn't break 85%, and others that I felt like I could have done better on that still were 100%+

 

I'm also not afraid to say that I think rifle classifications influencing handgun classification doesn't make complete sense (that's coming from someone who stands to get a bump from such a rule - I'm about 8% better in PCC than in Production).  

 

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lcs   

Having watched numerous PCC shooters at different clubs, it is pretty obvious that a handgun is at a disadvantage if you were shooting against each other in USPSA 32 round field course.

 

A 9mm rifle with a 16" barrel, locked into the shoulder, braced with you weak hand, a dot and/or laser,  is going to be more accurate than any handgun shooting USPSA. Oh, let's not forget the 40 round mag capacity.   I'm not complaining as it looks like fun, but you have to be fast to compete in PCC from what I am seeing.  .

 

I see PCC shooters taking shots at distances we handgun shooters shy away from.  In other words, we have to get closer.  It also enables PCC shooters to use less shooting positions.

 

From what most PCC shooters are telling me, their loads won't even make minor in a production gun.  It's all fun!  

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mlm   

I shoot SS and have since 1989 in USPSA. I have tried Open, L10, Production and Limited. I find myself going back to SS all the time. Whatever USPSA wants to do is fine with me as long as it is done safely and by keeping with all the regs and rules that apply for PCC. I think it is a way for shooters to get involved and interested in this great sport. When I shoot a match and the dust clears and the WAILING Wall goes up, if I am 65-75% of the top shooter, I feel very good about that.  Just bear in mind that PCC was set up for people that don't shoot pistol well or have become a GM and want to try something new.

I am not a Hater, just quit belly aching and get out and shoot and help grow the sport.

IMVHO

Thanks

Mike

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gerritm   

I am an avid 3-gun shooter so the transition to PCC was natural. Really liking it and brought me back to USPSA. Was shooting open and now strictly PCC and 3-gun. Has helped improve my rifle shooting.

 

I struggle with the classifiers as they have a bunch of them with mag changes and I shoot PCC left handed and no Glock lowers with ambi safeties although Gibbz is starting to offer one and I have pre-ordered. My overall finish does not reflect in my poor classifier scores.

 

Point is my finishes are equal to or better than what I did in open, but it does depend on the match and stages. Longer shots and open stages or multiple targets from a single position I finish well, tight walls and awkward positions I finish lower.

 

Booming here in the Houston area.

 

gerritm

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cody6477   
12 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

They aren't being classified "against other PCC shooters".  They are being classified against an objective standard that was created for people shooting Open handguns.  That's a actually a problem, because is it very easy to get a 100% score on certain classifiers (many of the Fixed Time classifiers that are incredibly difficult with a handgun are simple with a PCC, and anything WHO and SHO is much easier with a PCC), while at the same time, there are a number of classifiers in which it is ridiculously difficult to get even close to a good score (which set of classifiers normally include reloads, which are simply slower in PCC than in Open).

 

This isn't an argument against PCC in the slightest---there simply needs to be enough PCC classifier data to get their own set of HHF.  Since that doesn't exist yet, USPSA is using Open HFFs, and some people are achieving abnormally high runs (compared to their other classifications) due to the choice of classifier by their match directors.  I'm not saying it is happening often...but it is certainly true that if a PCC person ended up shooting these classifiers in a row:

99-14

06-07

99-47

99-40

08-05

08-06

13-03

99-02

 

....they would probably have a PCC classification that was significantly higher than their handgun classification.

 

We simply need more data to get a good set of PCC HHFs.

 

At no point is this an argument against PCC.  Far as I can tell, it is a growing division that people are truly enjoying shooting.

I stand corrected.

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9 hours ago, lcs said:

Having watched numerous PCC shooters at different clubs, it is pretty obvious that a handgun is at a disadvantage if you were shooting against each other in USPSA 32 round field course.

this is only true if the field course is tilted towards pcc with lots of long shots, and minimal leans, ports, or tight quarters maneuvering. Typical uspsa field courses still give the advantage to open imho. Not that I really GAF since I shoot SS, but I do at least look at the top open guys scores, whereas i always filter out the pcc guys in 4th, 7th and 10th.

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9 hours ago, gerritm said:

I am an avid 3-gun shooter so the transition to PCC was natural. <snip>

 

Point is my finishes are equal to or better than what I did in open, but it does depend on the match and stages. Longer shots and open stages or multiple targets from a single position I finish well, tight walls and awkward positions I finish lower.

 

this is exactly what I would expect. If you suck at shooting a pistol (which most 3-gunners do, due to the nature of their scoring), and you practice alot with a rifle, you will probably do better with a rifle. For folks that don't suck with a pistol (i.e. good uspsa shooters), it's a little less clear-cut. Not that anyone really cares, because rifle shooters are only competing against themselves anyway, the whole HOA thing is just pretend (even tho open or limited shooters usually win it).

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11 hours ago, motosapiens said:

this is only true if the field course is tilted towards pcc with lots of long shots, and minimal leans, ports, or tight quarters maneuvering. Typical uspsa field courses still give the advantage to open imho.

 

Very well said.  

 

Over a major match, I've noticed that the number of stages that weigh heavily towards PCC strengths versus weighing heavily toward handgun strengths usually balance out, or fall in the handgun shooter's favor, ultimately.  Again, not that it matters due to divisions being unique.   

 

11 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

For folks that don't suck with a pistol (i.e. good uspsa shooters), it's a little less clear-cut. 

 

Another spot on point.  I'm a better rifle shooter than handgun shooter, admittedly, but there are still stages where I've shot both a PCC and handgun just for kicks, and came out close to even just based on the nature of the stage layout. 

Edited by GorillaTactical

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