Did you know there has never been a Lady GM?

[JasonK]

Is there anyway to find out how what percentage of the current membership are GM, M, A, B, C, or D for both men and women? Maybe that would explain something. Perhaps there are not enough women shooters, statistically, to have a lady GM? What is the percentage of women to men in USPSA?

I have a hard time believing it is all physiological. I have met some short, skinny Filipino GM's and some pro football player looking D class men too. It can't just be about size or strength. I'm not sure it is just dedication either. The ladies super squad don't try to improve as much as the men's SS does? I'm not going to stand near anyone that makes that claim!!

I wonder what the deal is?

[XRe]

I have a hard time believing it is all physiological. I have met some short, skinny Filipino GM's and some pro football player looking D class men too.

That was kind of my point in the other thread... It doesn't take raw power to be a GM (though it doesn't hurt things, if you don't suffer from immobility like a lot of those "football player looking D class men")...

[AWLAZS]

Is there anyway to find out how what percentage of the current membership are GM, M, A, B, C, or D for both men and women? Maybe that would explain something. Perhaps there are not enough women shooters, statistically, to have a lady GM? What is the percentage of women to men in USPSA?

I have wondered about this too

[chuckbradley]

They dont have the upper body strength to control recoil and speed transitions. Its a also known that women dont run as fast as men. They are not as athletic as men overall. Not sexist , just the fact. There have been a few make it to Master class. I suspect we could have one make it to GM. If anybody can I think Jessy Abbate will be able to. She amazed me with her performance shooting Limited at the Georgia State Match.

[TruStreet]

I to have wondered. Another question I have asked with no answer is " In Martial Arts you always hear of a Senior Person getting their Black Belt. How Many GM got their card as a senior?

[wgnoyes]

Is there anyway to find out how what percentage of the current membership are GM, M, A, B, C, or D for both men and women? ...

Not broken out by men/women, but look here: http://uspsa.org/cgi-bin/db_class_summary.cgi

[Athena]

It can be done. On paper. Like many grandbaggers out there who get beat by B class shooters at Nationals....

I, personally, can't live with the idea of being classified GM and NOT making GM scores at Nationals, yaknowhatimean?

Here is my tired, cranky and jet-lagged two cents...And yes, I am the 70% lady from the World Shoot in question who never made grandmaster... I've never believed in shooting classifiers because I think people take advantage of it. For me, I think Nationals is the true gauge on how people should be classified. But then again, that's just my opinion. Now the question is, Mr. OP, how come a lot of GM's can't shoot GM scores at Nationals?

Oh wait, I just realized that the original post was "Did you know there has never been a Lady GM?" ...so, "Yeah, we know..."

Edited November 6, 2008 by Athena

[rgkeller]

Now, THAT's a reply.

[jasmap]

It can be done. On paper. Like many grandbaggers out there who get beat by B class shooters at Nationals....

I, personally, can't live with the idea of being classified GM and NOT making GM scores at Nationals, yaknowhatimean?

Here is my tired, cranky and jet-lagged two cents...And yes, I am the 70% lady from the World Shoot in question who never made grandmaster... I've never believed in shooting classifiers because I think people take advantage of it. For me, I think Nationals is the true gauge on how people should be classified. But then again, that's just my opinion. Now the question is, Mr. OP, how come a lot of GM's can't shoot GM scores at Nationals?

Oh wait, I just realized that the original post was "Did you know there has never been a Lady GM?" ...so, "Yeah, we know..."

EXACTLY right! Good post Athena.

[J-Ho]

Jason,

What's with the He-man woman hater club posts lately?

[LChico]

Jason,

What's with the He-man woman hater club posts lately?

I didn't see it as He-man or Women hater. I thought it was an honest question from a puzzled new guy. And I have been really impressed with the carefully phrased responses. It would certainly never happen on other shooting forums I've visited.

To add some stats to the number of women shooters at matches, at the level 2 & 3 matches I have worked over the last 16 years (I've lost count )

the percentage of women shooters has not varied from between 3 to 5 percent of total shooters.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[Charles Bond]

Well stated Linda.

Is it just me or am I starting to see a great number of active juniors who are female? My sense is that the percentage of junior shooters at major matches has only grown a lttle but the percentage of young ladies therein have grown a lot.

Charles bond

[J-Ho]

Jason,

What's with the He-man woman hater club posts lately?

I didn't see it as He-man or Women hater. I thought it was an honest question from a puzzled new guy. And I have been really impressed with the carefully phrased responses. It would certainly never happen on other shooting forums I've visited.

To add some stats to the number of women shooters at matches, at the level 2 & 3 matches I have worked over the last 16 years (I've lost count )

the percentage of women shooters has not varied from between 3 to 5 percent of total shooters.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

"He-man woman haters club" from the little rascals. No girls allowed.

I'm just giving him a hard time.

I know Jason. He's not new, puzzled maybe, but not new.

It's an interesting question, but to me it doesn't really matter. It is just simply a fact. If a woman ever wins the nationals HOA, good for her. Not because she's a woman but because she won.

Now before I dig myself a really big hole, I'm going to shut up. If I go on this thread might get closed.

[SA Friday]

It can be done. On paper. Like many grandbaggers out there who get beat by B class shooters at Nationals....

I, personally, can't live with the idea of being classified GM and NOT making GM scores at Nationals, yaknowhatimean?

Here is my tired, cranky and jet-lagged two cents...And yes, I am the 70% lady from the World Shoot in question who never made grandmaster... I've never believed in shooting classifiers because I think people take advantage of it. For me, I think Nationals is the true gauge on how people should be classified. But then again, that's just my opinion. Now the question is, Mr. OP, how come a lot of GM's can't shoot GM scores at Nationals?

Oh wait, I just realized that the original post was "Did you know there has never been a Lady GM?" ...so, "Yeah, we know..."

So, are you saying that currently there are no women shooters in USPSA capable of shooting at a GM level? If so, why not? I know this is different from the OP's question, but it was more to the theme of the first thread that started this one. I'm not trying to poke the dragon with a stick here. I'm just trying to get more of your tired, cranky, jet-lagged two cents.

Edited November 6, 2008 by SA Friday

[G-ManBart]

It can be done. On paper. Like many grandbaggers out there who get beat by B class shooters at Nationals....

I, personally, can't live with the idea of being classified GM and NOT making GM scores at Nationals, yaknowhatimean?

Here is my tired, cranky and jet-lagged two cents...And yes, I am the 70% lady from the World Shoot in question who never made grandmaster... I've never believed in shooting classifiers because I think people take advantage of it. For me, I think Nationals is the true gauge on how people should be classified. But then again, that's just my opinion. Now the question is, Mr. OP, how come a lot of GM's can't shoot GM scores at Nationals?

Oh wait, I just realized that the original post was "Did you know there has never been a Lady GM?" ...so, "Yeah, we know..."

Excellent points!

I struggle with the whole concept of classifiers in more than one way. Most of them don't really translate well to a lot of the stages we shoot. We're only rarely forced to shoot strong hand only and never weak hand only in field courses/normal stages....and they make up the overwhelming majority of stages. Sure a big match might have one or two classifier type stages or some standards, but that's it.

In thinking about the Open Nationals this year, I think only four A class shooters were above 75%, only two Masters were above 85%, and two GM's (aside from Tilley as HOA) were above 95%. Sometimes I wonder if the whole system isn't skewed. It's fair because it's the same for everyone, but it still seems odd. I guess if you throw a random number of GM's in the field, it's unlikely that you're going to get most of them all in the top 5% because even a small mistake can kill any chance of that, but for the lower classes you'd think it more likely since the percentage window is so much larger. R<

[JasonK]

It can be done. On paper. Like many grandbaggers out there who get beat by B class shooters at Nationals....

I, personally, can't live with the idea of being classified GM and NOT making GM scores at Nationals, yaknowhatimean?

Here is my tired, cranky and jet-lagged two cents...And yes, I am the 70% lady from the World Shoot in question who never made grandmaster... I've never believed in shooting classifiers because I think people take advantage of it. For me, I think Nationals is the true gauge on how people should be classified. But then again, that's just my opinion. Now the question is, Mr. OP, how come a lot of GM's can't shoot GM scores at Nationals?

Oh wait, I just realized that the original post was "Did you know there has never been a Lady GM?" ...so, "Yeah, we know..."

Congratulations on your finish in the World Shoot. I couldn't even hold your water while you shot. I had sincerely hoped that this topic wouldn't get personal because of the potential for misinterpretation or hurt feelings. I hope you belive that I intend no slight whatsoever.

To answer your question, it seems the consensus is that classifers do not represent actual match stages very well. By the way, at 70%, you shot a very solid mid B class at the World Shoot.

I was not being sarcastic at all. I was suprised there were not any GM ladies. Looking at the link posted earlier I understand why a little better. Of the 4918 Open class USPSA shooters only 2.58% of them are GM's on paper.

If the World Shoot this year was a classifier, in Open division only one shooter shot a Grand Master score. Thirteen shot Master class scores. Thirty one shot A class. One hundred twenty one were B class. One hundred forty one shot C class. Finally thirty shot what would have been a D class score.

Interesting.

[SA Friday]

Exactly. I touched on this in the other thread too. Just one GM shooter absolutely blowing out the entire field has the ability to skew the results for everyone. Everything is based on the 100% shot for that match. Now factor in a hand full of exceptional GM shooters for the overall classification and the results are the typical bell curve, not a tapering pyramid. It's still a fair system, but I believe it's a substancial contributing factor to there not ever being a female GM. As I see it, time and money are the two key factors to getting to GM and staying there. There are exceptions, but when the time and money lessens, the results reflect.

Edited November 6, 2008 by SA Friday

[kgunz11]

Jessie Abbate is now a full time shooter. Looking at her classifier scores, she has the propensity if anyone ever has. She started out in the sport very strong and keeps getting stronger!

[PINMAN44]

Anything can be achieved. People who say that women cannot are defeatist.

Don't tell me that women aren't strong. Women are stronger than us by nature. The pain they endure that men will never know. Strength comes in many forms. You will one day have your GM lady who will smoke them all.

It can be achieved if one desires it.

[shred]

I bet if you search the forums from 5 years ago there are "why are there no woman M shooters?" threads. It's not very long ago that the top ladies were almost all in A-class. That says a lot too.

[Chuck Anderson]

They dont have the upper body strength to control recoil and speed transitions. Its a also known that women dont run as fast as men. They are not as athletic as men overall. Not sexist , just the fact. There have been a few make it to Master class. I suspect we could have one make it to GM. If anybody can I think Jessy Abbate will be able to. She amazed me with her performance shooting Limited at the Georgia State Match.

I may be thinking of a different guy but the Chuck Bradley I remember, as well as the Chuck Anderson I am are both GM's and I don't think either one of are going to be the spokesmen for Weighwatchers. While we both have the upper body strength, I can pretty much guarantee there are several women shooters that can kick our butts in a footrace. But which classifier requires that much running that it would be substantially different for women than for men? I'll concede upper body strength but I dont think foot speed is a valid argument. I know an awful lot of fat, old, and out of shape GM's.

[Charles Bond]

Jessie Abbate is now a full time shooter. Looking at her classifier scores, she has the propensity if anyone ever has. She started out in the sport very strong and keeps getting stronger!

I am willing to bet $100 that Jessie Abate imakes GM and she will attain that status before the 2011 nationals.............any takers?

[George Jones]

Now the question is, Mr. OP, how come a lot of GM's can't shoot GM scores at Nationals?

Or why do a lot of Ms don't shoot M scores, etc, etc, etc.....

I believe the fundamental reason is due to the simple fact that low classifier scores are not accepted, while we all get to keep every trashed stage at a major match.

The system may not be perfect but it does what it was intended to do which is to provide classifications useable at Level I matches. Not everyone in USPSA shoots Level II and above. For those who do, it's a mix of fundamentals skills (classifiers) and "on demand" match skills (major matches). Yes, the skill sets are different and are reflected in the differences of some shooters' respective classifier and match records.

My basic skills are poor enough that I don't shoot that much worse at majors.

[Adam B]

let us not forget the fact the Jessie Abate is extremely hot!!! That should really help her to make GM!!

[zhunter]

It can be done. On paper. Like many grandbaggers out there who get beat by B class shooters at Nationals....

I, personally, can't live with the idea of being classified GM and NOT making GM scores at Nationals, yaknowhatimean?

Here is my tired, cranky and jet-lagged two cents...And yes, I am the 70% lady from the World Shoot in question who never made grandmaster... I've never believed in shooting classifiers because I think people take advantage of it. For me, I think Nationals is the true gauge on how people should be classified. But then again, that's just my opinion. Now the question is, Mr. OP, how come a lot of GM's can't shoot GM scores at Nationals?

Oh wait, I just realized that the original post was "Did you know there has never been a Lady GM?" ...so, "Yeah, we know..."

GREAT POST!!!

Wonder how the PAPER GM's are feeling today?