Flipping a Handgun

[BDH]

I just got back from the Summer Blast where I worked as a CRO over two stages. Unfortunately we seemed to have an inordinate amount of DQ's (dropped gun during COF, AD over berm on reload, etc) but I had one that I've never seen and hope to never see again.

One of my stages was a classifer (CM06-03 Can You Count) which is four close targets, two strings of five rounds, mandatory reload, five rounds. A competitor was shooting string one and shot five rounds, forgot the mandatory reload, and shot the next five rounds. No problem so far other than he just earned five procedural penalties. However, he realized that he made a mistake, and tossed his loaded gun up in the air!! It rotated twice completely, came down and he caught it by the grip and holstered (almost like it was 'practiced')...

Of course the RO stops him and calls me up. I had been watching my other stage at the time so did not see the actual event and asked what happened to which the RO replied 'he cowboyed his gun!' Not knowing exactly what he was talking about, I asked for clarification, and when I heard what happened, I just could not believe it. I called the RM and of course that was the end of this competitors match, but the question remains...

Should there be a more severe penalty for something so inherently dangerous and foolish?? Should someone who so flagrantly violates our rules and everyones safety be banned from USPSA or IPSC for life?? Should they be banned for a year?? What do you think is appropropiate?? Remember, this was a hot gun with a round in the chamber, and a magazine in the mag well. It rotated twice, so the muzzle was pointing up range twice...

[davidball]

Did the RO change his soiled underwear before or after going to get you?

Edited July 15, 2008 by davidball

[ChuckS]

I would humbly suggest that the match RM contact HQ for advice. This one deserves special attention.

Wow,

Chuck

[-JQ-]

[Flexmoney]

This new rule is a start:

6.4.4 An individual may be barred from participating in a USPSA match, at

the match director’s discretion, if the person:

a. has demonstrated an inability to safely complete courses of fire, or

b. has demonstrated behavior which would or may disrupt the match,

or which would bring disrepute to the sport.

6.4.5 A Match Director enforcing Rule 6.4.4 must submit a detailed report to

USPSA within seven days of the occurrence.

[G-ManBart]

Wow....that does call for special attention

[Chuck Anderson]

Yep, there are procedures in place to suspend or ban folks from USPSA. We just dealt with letting someone back into our section from 8 years ago. The SC, AD or USPSA can make the decision depending on available information or severity.

I gotta say that is a new one to me. The last thing I heard someone getting suspended for was throwing their unloaded gun at the berm. That sounds like it falls at least into the same if not worse level of offense.

[enoon]

"Remember, this was a hot gun with a round in the chamber, and a magazine in the mag well. It rotated twice, so the muzzle was pointing up range twice... "

Contact HQ. Documentation is needed.

Without knowing the details... I would think about banning the shooter by way of the hosting club rules. Clubs should have a mechanism by which they eject members or guests for reckless or destructive or... behavior. Sounds like you may not have been a member of the hosting club, so this may not apply.

I would also contact his local club. For information as to whether this is repeated behavior. Maybe for documention. Maybe for peer pressure to be applied. Maybe to satisfy my curiosity.

I'm finding it difficult to not rant.

[Greg Bell]

A new one is added to the practical pistol sports lexicon. "Cowboyed his gun"

[bgary]

I would humbly suggest that the match RM contact HQ for advice. This one deserves special attention.

+1. I'd suggest starting with an email to Amidon, copying El Pres and your Area Director.

The SC, AD or USPSA can make the decision depending on available information or severity.

Just to clarify... the President and/or Board can suspend or terminate a person's USPSA membership. That's one thing, but doesn't necessarily keep someone off the range (since nobody has to be a member to shoot a club-level match).

As Flex said, there is *also* a new (1/1/08) rule that allows a club to turn someone away if they believe the person will have an inability to play nice. A report needs to be filed with Sedro whenever this is invoked, because we want to be aware of the situations (and be sure the rule isn't just being used to turn away "people we don't like" or whatever). Regardless, this *does* give clubs and sections a tool they can use if they believe a person doesn't "get" how important safety is.

Clubs should have a mechanism by which they eject members or guests for reckless or destructive or... behavior.

...and that's the third approach. While a USPSA club cannot simply say "go away and don't come back" (there's no provision in the rulebook for banning a person), a *range* can easily tell a person that they are not allowed on the property, with the force of law behind it if necessary. Call the local PD/Sheriff/whatever, and ask how to get a "trespass order" in place, if necessary.

Bruce

Edited July 15, 2008 by bgary

[LChico]

While all the suggestions might be valuable if this had occurred at a local match, only a few are helpful in this situation, because it occurred at Summer Blast. The shooters came from 25 different states & we had a sizable Canadian group. Like most major matches, you do not know a big group of the shooters in advance. If the shooter has a valid USPSA membership, we let them register for the match.

While we know the home address of the shooter, we do not have any idea where his local club matches might be held. Also, since he is from an area that has several nearby USPSA clubs, if he is banned from one range, he can easily start shooting at another. That is the reason I think a larger sanction (against his USPSA membership) is needed.

The RM at the match was no slouch. He collected information regarding the incident in order to forward to NROI.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2008 Summer Blast Statistician

Edited July 15, 2008 by LChico

[j2fast]

Heard this story yesterday, wow, just wow.

[Airedale]

This guy needs new USPSA number should be "Lbanned".

None of us should be put in a postition to be around this dangerous player.

Dave

[Sestock]

There is no room in USPSA or any shooting sport for a yahoo like this. He endangered everyone in the immediate area with this action.

Besides the action discussed above, maybe the club should contact the local PD and file reckless endangement charges aganist him.

Also his Area Director and home club should be informed of his actions.

Edited July 15, 2008 by Sestock

[davidwiz]

I've seen some unsafe gun handling over the years, but this really takes the cake. I USPSA is able to verify it, I would hope that a life-time ban would occur. If the person did this at a major match, it is probably safe to say that it occurred elsewhere before.

[racerba]

Also his Area Director and home club should be informed of his actions.

While that may be viable, it would not look good for our sport. Think about it...after the police report, the news media would be all over it. They would find ways to spin it like we do unsafe actions all the time.

[EZ Bagger]

Ethical actions are not always easy. One good way to know whether you should inform others is to ask the question of which position you'd rather be in when the judge/attorney in a wrongful death case asks you if this behavior was ever noted before. Yes sir, but we were too embarassed to let the host club know....

[38superman]

Match DQ rulings are generally based on the premise of unintentional and unsafe gun handling.

An accidental discharge.

A dropped gun during a course of fire.

Sweeping, 180 violation, etc, etc.

About the only deliberate act I can think of would be handling ammo in a safe area.

Even then it's usually not malicious.

Just a case of brain freeze.

Because these actions are inadvertent and correctable, we send the shooter home and invite them to come back and try again.

However, when someone intentionally commits a flagrant safety violation, the consequences should go beyond a match DQ.

Someone who has a fit of frustration and throws an unloaded gun at a berm is a serious issue. It goes to emotional stability.

In my opinion that would warrant a severe reprimand and at least a temporary suspension.

Someone tossing a hot weapon in the air is completely reckless.

It shows a total lack of regard for their own safety and the safety of innocent people that may be in the vicinity.

In the context of our sport, totally unacceptable.

If someone is suspended from all USPSA competition, how does that work.

Does Sedro keep a list that is updated an distributed to all clubs?

Tony

[raz-0]

There's a real easy fix. Most clubs have rules. The rules are usually administered by some governing body of the club. Get the club to ban him by name. and inform all the folks who run shooting activities.

I suspect that, regardless of USPSA's actions, this is probably already in the works. The folks from 25 states isn't protection from being held accountable for being stupid, it jsut means the info spreads that much faster.

After all, I was not at the summer blast, and I didn't hear about this incident here first.

The guy needs a good ass kicking in my opinion.

[Barrettone]

I talked with the RM at length about this, and it was agreed that a formal letter needed to be sent to the Director of NROI. We cannot afford to have a cavalier attitude towards safety. It easily could have gone the other way, and someone could have been seriously injured or killed. It should be noted that there was a major media outlet there covering the event just a couple of bays over. Instead of a positive news piece, it could have easily been this headline:

"MAN SHOOTS FELLOW COMPETITOR IN CHEST AT USPSA EVENT...NEWS AT 11PM"

Luckily that was not the case. I'll also note that I take my kids (ages 5, 7 & 10) to USPSA/IPSC matches with me because the safety rules that we are governed by are second to none. If we allow any compromise, and I have the slightest feeling that my children would be in danger, I would cease participation and find another sport for my family to enjoy. These types of actions need to be dealt with swiftly and severely. A MINIMUM ban of 6 months with an assignment of a "mentor" who is a seasoned shooter and RO for the next six months, and then with their reccommendation MAYBE a reinstatement (my opinion). But this is for the USPSA leadership to decide. I hope they they act wisely, as anything else might/will send the wrong message.

We all make mistakes, but this was a move that he had apparently tried and/or practiced before IMO. It was foolish, dangerous, and quite frankly disrespectful to all the responsible people who participate in this sport. I will not tolerate such conduct at any event I am ever involved in, and I certainly hope this never happens again. Brian, I am sorry you had to deal with such an unfortunate situation, but I am glad that at least the RO's got him stopped as quickly as they could and got him out of the match.

My .02

[Chuck Anderson]

While all the suggestions might be valuable if this had occurred at a local match, only a few are helpful in this situation, because it occurred at Summer Blast. The shooters came from 25 different states & we had a sizable Canadian group. Like most major matches, you do not know a big group of the shooters in advance. If the shooter has a valid USPSA membership, we let them register for the match.

While we know the home address of the shooter, we do not have any idea where his local club matches might be held. Also, since he is from an area that has several nearby USPSA clubs, if he is banned from one range, he can easily start shooting at another. That is the reason I think a larger sanction (against his USPSA membership) is needed.

The RM at the match was no slouch. He collected information regarding the incident in order to forward to NROI.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2008 Summer Blast Statistician

A check of the classification database should give you a real good idea at which clubs he's shooting at. At least those that submit classifiers.

[Hammer]

I am aware that a number of years ago a competitor became angry and threw a loaded gun downrange. It netted him a lifetime ban from USPSA. If my recollection is correct, a couple of years ago he applied for reinstatement and it was not granted. I believe Bruce was on the board at that time and may be able to speak to the issue. In any case, I think the sanctions in this case should also be swift and severe.

Hammer

[Tim Egan]

I am aware that a number of years ago a competitor became angry and threw a loaded gun downrange. It netted him a lifetime ban from USPSA. If my recollection is correct, a couple of years ago he applied for reinstatement and it was not granted. I believe Bruce was on the board at that time and may be able to speak to the issue. In any case, I think the sanctions in this case should also be swift and severe.

Hammer

Heard that as well, but the reason he was not reinstated is he would not say that it would not happen again.

Edited July 15, 2008 by Tim Egan

[Thomas Moore]

None of us should be put in a position to be around this dangerous player.

I agree with this statement 100%. If this person doesn't get banned from USPSA how will we know if he is shooting on our squad at the next major match. I surely don't want to be near this individual. This guy should be treated like a sex offender and everyone should know his name, where he lives and where he shoots.

just my $0.02

[CSEMARTIN]

I hope all involved don't let this one slip through the cracks.