USPSA purchases Steel Challenge

[Bob Hostetter]

My first question is.................Why? How does it improve USPSA for the membership and not just the Pro's?

My second question would have to be.....................Why would USPSA spend the kind of money necessary to buy the rights to the Steel Challenge without discussing this with the membership? And how much did we (the membership) spend?

And, who is going to promote, run, organize, and profit from the running of the Steel Challenge? Did we (the membership) also hiring a person or person's to run the Steel Challenge? If so, who and how much did that cost?

We constantly hear about funds being tight when referring to the Nationals but yet we have money to BUY another National/World venue out right?

Come on members of the BOD and Mr. President, tell us the rest of the story.................!

[Vlad]

I started discussions today with a Club in Area 8 to hold an Area 8 Steel Challenge Championship.

Alan Meek

Alan, I don't know who you are talking to, but you should take a look at Old Bridge in NJ. They run a very large match every year, hundreds of shooters, sponsors, the whole deal. PM me for contacts if you want.

[JThompson]

Me smells a shit-storm headed this way.

[EricBudd]

I started discussions today with a Club in Area 8 to hold an Area 8 Steel Challenge Championship.

Alan Meek

Alan, I don't know who you are talking to, but you should take a look at Old Bridge in NJ. They run a very large match every year, hundreds of shooters, sponsors, the whole deal. PM me for contacts if you want.

Between the steel matches at Old Bridge, the PA Steel League matches, and the PSA Shootout, steel matches are very popular in NE PA and NJ. I'm not sure how it fits with USPSA, but heck, I'll shoot any match that doesn't make me come dress in period duds and pick a funny alias.

[bgary]

Jeez, guys... for once, can't you see the opportunity, rather than scan for the black helicopters?

My first question is.................Why? How does it improve USPSA for the membership

You mean things like,

-- more types of sanctioned competition offered at the club level?

-- more types of regional and area-level competitions?

-- broader array of offerings for all USPSA members?

My second question would have to be.....................Why would USPSA spend the kind of money necessary to buy the rights to the Steel Challenge without discussing this with the membership? And how much did we (the membership) spend?

-- because we think it is a great opportunity for USPSA... and

-- because we think it is a great opportunity for the Steel Challenge... and

-- because we think it serves the interests of USPSA members and clubs... and

-- because we think it is a "good thing" to bring shooting sports together, rather than fracture them further... and

-- a whole lot of other reasons.

I don't know if USPSA will - or should - disclose how much was paid. That's for people above my pay-grade to decide, recognizing that USPSA is a non-profit association, not a shareholder-owned for-profit corporation (not to mention the fact that it sort of infringes on the privacy of the sellers, who are *not* a public corporation). I will say that there were other bidders, we did our own financial analysis to determine what our bid needed to be, including cash-flow projections and budget impacts, and we are delighted to have the opportunity to take the SC to the next level. We think it will be good for USPSA, as well as good for SC.

And, who is going to promote, run, organize, and profit from the running of the Steel Challenge? Did we (the membership) also hiring a person or person's to run the Steel Challenge?

It'll be run out of the Sedro office, with staffing level(s) to be determined by the executive director.

yet we have money to BUY another National/World venue out right?

Didn't buy a "venue". Bought the intellectual property and associated assets of a major *match*, and the encompassing org (Steel Challenge Shooting Association, or SCSA). We believe it is a great opportunity to be associated with one of the most respected names in the shooting sports, while at the same time learning how they have *gained* that success, and applying that to the rest of USPSA.

Come on members of the BOD and Mr. President, tell us the rest of the story.................!

You've gotten my two cents. I will say, though, to those that are looking for a "shit storm"... I'm kinda not interested in playing with you. I personally think this is a *great* step in broadening and strengthening USPSA's place in the community of practical shooting sports, and we [the members of the BOD and Mr. President] have been working very hard to make it work.

b

Edited December 12, 2007 by bgary

[Flexmoney]

My first question is.................Why? How does it improve USPSA for the membership and not just the Pro's?

I have no idea what "pro" shooters would have to do with it??? You lost me on that one.

USPSA can, immediately, expand Steel Challenge to the Area, State and Local levels. The old Steel Challenge organization had no wherewithal to do so. (I ran the local SC match here in Ohio for the last few years...never hearing a peep from the old SC org.)

My second question would have to be.....................Why would USPSA spend the kind of money necessary to buy the rights to the Steel Challenge without discussing this with the membership?

We elect our BOD and President to represent us. They were presented with an opportunity, and took it. I believe USPSA was sitting with a little money in the war chest, since practical shooting has been doing so well in recent years.

And how much did we (the membership) spend?

If THE Steel Challenge match, itself, continues on at it's current pace...I suspect that the purchase price could be covered in 5yrs or so...just from the big match.

And, who is going to promote, run, organize, and profit from the running of the Steel Challenge? Did we (the membership) also hiring a person or person's to run the Steel Challenge? If so, who and how much did that cost?

I understand we will have an individual dedicated to this endeavor. I've heard that person might be one that is in the Sedro office already. That concerns me a bit. I hope this would be a dedicated position.

Come on members of the BOD and Mr. President, tell us the rest of the story.................!

[Administrator hat on] Ease up on the conspiracy theory stuff...we aren't going to have that here. This isn't the IPSC list. [/hat off]

[rgkeller]

The limiting factors in the growth of USPSA/IPSC matches in the USA is dedicated people to set up and run them and time/slots/places to shoot them.

It is a legitimate worry that introducing an entirely new form of competition into the USPSA structure will dilute the number of "traditional" USPSA matches for the membership.

BTW, when was it that "broadening and strengthening the USPSA's place in the community of practical shooting sports" become a stated goal of the USPSA?

[bgary]

BTW, when was it that "broadening and strengthening the USPSA's place in the community of practical shooting sports" become a stated goal of the USPSA?

Hmmm... at least as far back as 1999, when the USPSA "mission statement" was adopted by the Board (before most of the current members were on it)

http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/19990814.html

Among the things that jump out:

Our mission is to promote safe, fair, and fun participation in Practical Shooting competition

USPSA will uphold it's responsibilities as a citizen in good standing of the United States, the world wide shooting community and the shooting industry

We will endeavour to establish USPSA as "the name to know" in safe, fun, Practical Shooting competition

Develop and expand Practical Shooting competition opportunity: We recognize all shooting that is done safely and with enjoyment supports our mission and purpose. We cannot remain narrowly focused on the current divisions of Open and Limited. We will encourage and consider having a .22-caliber style of competition in clubs, speed steel competition, new IPSC divisions; anything we can do that grows the membership and generates participation while under the umbrella of Practical Shooting will be a good thing for the future of the sport and the organization

Continue to find ways to deliver value to our members

I think the relevant question isn't "why is this a goal?" I think the more relevant question is "why haven't we done more things to serve our members, sooner?"

But that's just me.

b

[Flexmoney]

The limiting factors in the growth of USPSA/IPSC matches in the USA is dedicated people to set up and run them and time/slots/places to shoot them.

That certainly is a valid concern, IMO.

We don't want to further load the same old work-horses, for sure. If that happens, then we won't have success in leaps and bounds at the local level.

That said, running a local Steel Challenge match is only about a tenth as involved as running a solid USPSA/IPSC match.

Any club that is running a current USPSA, IDPA, ICORE, etc. match could run an SC match in a second. Heck, any club with a bay or two could do so. Set 5 steel in a bay. Shoot them. Adjust them for the next cof. Shoot them again. And, so on. (current poppers could be turned and set not to fall)

Throw down a tarp...and everybody gets all their brass back.

[Alan Meek]

I started discussions today with a Club in Area 8 to hold an Area 8 Steel Challenge Championship.

Alan Meek

Alan, I don't know who you are talking to, but you should take a look at Old Bridge in NJ. They run a very large match every year, hundreds of shooters, sponsors, the whole deal. PM me for contacts if you want.

Vlad,

PM Inbound

Alan

[rtr]

One of the big benefits that I see is expanding the number of USPSA members.

We have had local steel type matches locally during the summer on a weekday afternoon. A lot of the shooters that shoot this are people who do NOT shoot regular USPSA matches.

Steel challenge matches will attract people who normally would not be interested in USPSA.

[ExtremeShot]

+1 ...we shoot Steel the first and third Sat. of the month. We setup before the match wereas, with IPSC we have to setup the day before. We charge $1.00 per person to shoot. You shoot 125+ rounds. That's a lot of shooting for next to nothing. It's cheap. It's easy to setup and take down. The stages are standard so no one has to make up COFs, and it's great practice for the classifiers (mainly stand and shoot). ...not to mention, it's a great way to get a new shooter involved because it's not as intimidating as IPSC.

DM

That said, running a local Steel Challenge match is only about a tenth as involved as running a solid USPSA/IPSC match.

Any club that is running a current USPSA, IDPA, ICORE, etc. match could run an SC match in a second. Heck, any club with a bay or two could do so. Set 5 steel in a bay. Shoot them. Adjust them for the next cof. Shoot them again. And, so on. (current poppers could be turned and set not to fall)

Throw down a tarp...and everybody gets all their brass back.

[Jaxshooter]

As long as the membership is paying dues and contributing funds from matches to the USPSA they have a right to know how much money is spent and what the USPSA received in return for the payment. The individuals that sold it whether public or private,incorporated or not have to disclose it to the IRS.

The only way it will be good for the membership on a whole is if the steel matches are held on a local, section and area basis. This raises the question of dilutiton of current matches or increasing opportunities to shoot and in turn increasing participation. I hope this will not change what we are doing now.

Chris

[raz-0]

I'll try not to be too cynical here.

First question is what about SCSA.. what happens there?

Concerns:

1) Why was it sold? If it was profitable and there were no issues, why sell it? If it wasn't, and/or there were issues, why buy it?

2) What did we get beyond a name? SC would have trouble laying claim to any of the stage designs or their names as they have been around for a while. If ownership was to be established, it likely would have to have been done some time ago.

3) What do we plan to do with it on a club level? Severl venues have been burned in attempting to be affiliated with SC, through both iterations. There are several sizable steel matches that don't operate with any association to SC because of that. They wanted a lot while giving virtually nothing in return.

4) Sponsor problems. As we gather more disciplines under one umbrella, there may be a greater tendency to see them as one organization that the sponsors already have well covered with less donations. If the sponsors already gave heavily to a few of disciplin X's matches, and now discpilin Y's getting the short end of the stick, there could be a fair ammount of animosity.

Opportunities:

1) USPSA offers club affiliation in a sane manner, SC didn't. This could be a great opportunity to expand static steel and the SC brand.

2) USPSA offers a classification system for USPSA/IPSC. If they can do the same for steel, this would help iron out some issues larger steel matches have with people showing up and being deceptive about their skill level.

3) Adding steel scoring to EZwinscore wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing from a local match perspective.

4) In general, as USPSA expands as an umbrella organization, it might present an opportunity for scheduling larger matches in a more cooperative manner. We have more matches than ever before, no more weekends than we used to, shooters traveling less due to fuel and ammo costs, and lots of matches stepping on each other's toes. It'd be a good/useful place to get organized. It could also cut both ways with discipline X feeling they are the black sheep and getting treated poorly.

From my perspective, this is just another chapter in the somewhat volatile history of the steel challenge. As long as we don't get soaked financially, it's no big deal.

[rgkeller]

Shooting steel and shooting Steel Challenge is not the same thing. SC requires specific and non-IPSC targets.

If all we wanted to do was shoot non falling steel, there is no reason to pay for the Steel Challenge.

[SA Friday]

Wow, I was just thinking about a sweet steel match I shot at the Dallas Pistol Club a while back. It was a 300 round steel match and was a hell of a lot of fun. It didn't necessarily follow the std courses of fire, but I learned a lot about my shooting by taking away movement from the course of fire and concentrating on the rest.

There is potential here, but I think it may take some time to set in and evolve a little.

[Flexmoney]

Shooting steel and shooting Steel Challenge is not the same thing. SC requires specific and non-IPSC targets.

Well...that isn't really true. Some may choose to think of SC as the specific stages/cof that are shot in the current year at THE Steel Challenge match. Those certainly aren't the only options.

I have a whole 3-ring binder that is overflowing with Steel Challenge stages...many over a decade old (maybe two decades ?). They use targets of various sizes. While ten inch plates are pretty standard, they are not the only targets.

[mikegot38]

I have been reading this topic with great interest. I for one would love to be able to shoot more Steel Challenge matches and not just static or falling steel. In this area (PA and NJ) you can shoot a steel or steel challenge type match about 3 times per moth in spring to fall. Since the actual Steel Challenge is in California it will be nice to shoot local and Area Steel Challenge matchs. Let's see how it goes. Steel is a great way to get shooters in USPSA as it is not so intimidating.

Mike

[open17]

Question---Why are we hearing about this HERE, evidently via Michael Bane?

Doesn't USPSA have a website for the purpose of providing information to members?

[kevin c]

I've got no problem with this. RRGC has steel matches, and while I don't shoot them (family obligations limit the time I have available to shoot matches, and I'd rather shoot IPSC), I do know that the crowd is much the same as our twice a month USPSA affiliated matches.

Like Raz-O, though, I am curious why the venue was available in the first place.

[Ron Ankeny]

Our club has all of the stuff required to hold a Steel Challenge match, but we have been hesitant to infringe on the SC folks by holding a "boot leg" match without the proper affiliation. I really do embrace the opportunity to expand into Steel Challenge (and yes our club would hold a Wyoming State Championship at the drop of a hat) if the cost to "affiliate" isn't prohibitive. I really do hope we can hold local and state matches under the USPSA "umbrella" without writing a big check to Sedro.

[Flexmoney]

Ron, that is a detail I've been trying to think through. An affiliated club can run...3-gun under the USPSA umbrella, for instance. I believe they just owe the mission count when doing so?

However, I think USPSA looks at a clubs 1st 12 "activities" when doing mission count for things like slots for the Nationals and such. That probably needs changed. If a club gets 60 shooters for a monthly USPSA match, and only 20-30 for a 3-gun or SC match, then they don't have much incentive to register any matches other than the USPSA match.

Those details do need to be figured out...and communicated.

[Carmoney]

The cost of acquiring the SC from the Mikes will have to be made available to the membership, just like executive salaries and all the other financial disclosures that we see every year.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the concept, because I really enjoy shooting static steel as well as USPSA-style competition, and had a blast on my trip to the SC in Piru back in 2004.

However, in business terms, I would question how much the Steel Challenge could be worth. There would be relatively little intellectual property value to it. We're essentially getting a trademark--the right to call it "Steel Challenge" rather than "Steel Championship" or some such thing. The real value, I suppose, is in the purchase of a non-compete agreement from the Mikes. But otherwise, it's all blue sky, Baby.....

[Tim Egan]

(and yes our club would hold a Wyoming State Championship at the drop of a hat)

And a fine match that you put on this year!

It would be nice to be able to get mission counts for section steel matches -

The name "State Match" gets a bit of competition for ownership every year.

In a state with just 4 clubs, It would be nice to spread the mission count that

comes with hosting a big match to the other clubs by allowing a different State Match.

I for one am excited about the purchase, Congrats USPSA

[Gary Stevens]

I tossed and turned over this purchase and was against it until about 15 minutes before the vote.

There are many variables to this venture, and we can only hope they all work out in USPSA's favor.

Some of the things that brought me around are :

The SC will retain all of it's original flavor and hopefully location. We don't want to do anything to disrupt a match with a 20 year history and fan base. The previous owners are willing to help us maintain the quality of the SC and to help us in the transition.

My interest is at a level below the SC match. I would like to offer the "opportunity" for clubs, sections, and areas to infuse this type of shooting into our already established sport. Obviously some clubs, sections or areas, may not be able to handle any additional matches, and that is understood. However, there already is interest in SC type shooting in other clubs, sections or areas. This will, hopefully, provide a vehicle to increase the interest in this type of shooting and perhaps our traditional USPSA shooting. I would like to see, where possible, state/sectional and area SC matches to be ran concurrent with out normal state/sectioal and area matches.

There are some smaller clubs that can use the smaller SC type stages to their advantage because of the smaller space requirements to run them.

It does promote the unbrella concept that USPSA discussed when we made a dual track with USPSA and IPSC and puts the USPSA name into an area that it has never been.

One of the most important items to me was that it allows us the opportunity to put the USPSA brand name into a "PC" shooting sport without doing any harm to our traditional shooting sport. The use of SC type targets opens opportunities for advertisement and sponsorship, like the Chevy Truck Team Challenge, that would never be available to the traditional USPSA shooting sport. It provides a vehicle to introduce very young juniors into the shooting game by allowing them to use 22 caliber guns, where they might have trouble with other aspects of our traditional sport. And all of this will be with the name of United States Practical Shooting attached to it.

There are many, many items to work out, especially if we take this to a level below the traditional SC match. It will take time to work through this, especially if it is to have any hope of being done correctly. We won't be able to have all the answers immediately. We won't even have all the questions immediately. We will work through it though, of that I am sure.

Those are some of the reasons I voted yes.