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USPSA purchases Steel Challenge


ExtremeShot

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I voiced a concern about spending the money to aquire the SC without any member input. It was explained to me, and which I finally agreed, that while "some" folks may know about the pending sale of the SC, not "everyone" knew about it. USPSA has been in negotiations with the SC owners since a few days after the 2007 Nationals in September. Public discussion of the pending sale and negotiations could have negatively affected the final sale price and cost USPSA significantly more money, or perhaps precluded the purchase entirely.

I think it is known that I believe in communication. With that being said though, there are sometimes that a public discussion of a major purchase, where others might bid the price up, is not wise.

Gary

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Everyone involved with USPSA's administration of the Steel Challenge should be locked in a room and forced to review the entire history of the match, both to understand why the people that go every year keep coming back and to understand why the changes Kerby introduced nearly killed it in the 90's. What failed was recognizing class winners, falling steel, and moving the location from Piru. Everyone involved should be required to shoot the match in 2008 as a competitor so they get to see it as it was before making any changes. Go back and study why Bianchi Cup has withered under NRA and why the SC came back from a coma to be as strong as it ever was.

Moving the match is like moving the Kentucky Derby or the Indy 500 or Camp Perry or Bisley. The place is part of the history and character and personality of the event.

The rules and the format and all the rest of it are part of the whole package.

Here's the sales pitch I give people about steel shooting in general:

1) Fewer skills to learn. Draw, shoot.

2) Scoring. Easy to understand and getting "one to throw away' is attractive to new shooters.

3) Stages are known in advance so you can practice them. How to practice is much more clear and obvious with steel stages compared to IPSC.

4) Because stage scores are well known you can easily gauge your ability level vs. the top shooters. USPSA makes the high hit factors secret which achieves nothing in my opinion.

5) Magazine capacity doesn't really matter. You don't even need mag pouches to compete - just a holster.

6) .22 friendly - great for beginners and kids

7) Matches are much faster to set up and tear down.

8) Don't have to go downrange and reset for every run.

9) Shooting steel will make you a more accurate shooter and improve your draw and target acquisition which will raise your IPSC and IDPA scores.

10) Fun, fun, fun.

Why the Steel Challenge in Piru is my favorite match and the best run match held every year

1) The match staff. It's not just the two Mikes that have made the match what it is. A lot of the staff has been working the match for years (decades?). The match is NOT "just for the pros".

2) If you show up and don't get DQed, you will get your match fee back in prizes even you are dead last. Most of the time the shooter's bag alone has $100 worth of stuff in it so even if you DQ you get goodies.

3) Side matches where you get to try new guns w/ random drawings where guns are given away

4) Scheduling. Half day on, half day off if you shoot one gun gives you time to enjoy the California sun and even drive to the beach.

5) Multiple entries. I had a ball shooting Limited _and_ Open this year.

6) Puts semiauto, DA wheelgun and cowboy sixgun shooters head to head. The data from Steel Challenge is a great source of knowledge about how optics vs iron sights and race holsters vs carry holster (IDPA class) affects performance, because you can actually look at data where top shooters very close in skill compete in the different categories or have double entries.

7) .22 pre-match

8) practice range

9) continuity in courses of fire make it possible to track your improvement year to year. It's much harder to do that in IPSC. Too many variables.

10) Location. Facilities, weather, staff, the 100+ shooters that have shot the match for years that keep coming back and keep it alive. More than anything I think changing the location hurt attendance in the 90's. Don't run off the "customers" you have now thinking that others will replace them. That idea failed once already.

Things USPSA could do to really totally screw it up:

1) Require people to earn "slots" to get into the match

2) Run off all the staff that are part of the character and personality of the match by requiring that all match ROs be USPSA certified and be managed by a USPSA RM unfamiliar with how things were done in the past.

3) Move it to Barry

4) Change the scoring so that no overall winner is declared and it's all separated by division.

5) Spin off so many Area and regional events that all start asking industry for prizes that the 'big match' suffers (I'm all for more steel matches but the scale of the match is part of its appeal and industry sponsorship is often a zero-sum game)

6) Put a USPSA person that has never shot the match, isn't a steel shooter already, or is similarly out of touch in charge of it.

7) Eliminate recognition of the IDPA and SASS categories because they aren't USPSA divisions

8) Eliminate double entries because they aren't allowed in USPSA matches

9) Change the scoring

10) Decide that each year's match needs "brand new stages" so it's more like IPSC

The least risky path is to make as few changes as possible and just try to maintain it as it is now.

It isn't broke so please don't fix it.

Karl

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I don't think that anyone is owed an explanation about how their USPSA membership fee is spent. It's not stock acquisition, it's a membership fee, for which you get services from the organization like classification, Nationals, NROI classes, etc. They DO NOT have to account for how they spent your $40. It's like paying a fee to join Sam's Club, or Costco, or National Geographic, and I'd bet that anyone holding one of those cards doesn't question "where the money went".

I do think an explanation is owed, and I gave it to the best of my ability. The timing and nature of the negotiations was such that it would not have been practical to put it all on hold to conduct a survey - but we could have done the safe thing and taken a "pass".

As members, you have a right to complain, disagree, ask where the money went, etc. and probably have *more* recourse than a stockholder in a publicly traded company. If you think the board blew it, put together your campaign and run for AD - you'll have a much better chance at unseating an incumbent that a non-institutional shareholder has of voting out a board member from a publicly traded firm in which you hold voting shares.

As to the posting by "rhen" - Great work, and well said.

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I don't think that anyone is owed an explanation about how their USPSA membership fee is spent. It's not stock acquisition, it's a membership fee, for which you get services from the organization like classification, Nationals, NROI classes, etc. They DO NOT have to account for how they spent your $40. It's like paying a fee to join Sam's Club, or Costco, or National Geographic, and I'd bet that anyone holding one of those cards doesn't question "where the money went".

Troy

I do believe that the membership should have at least been advised of the possibility of this happening. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't we discuss the rule changes? Isn't there a couple different forums on USPSA website to suggest rule changes? As far as "getting" services like classification, Nationals, and NROI classes, etc. for our $40, wellllllll, last I checked the club has to send in money with the classifiers, Nationals cost in the neighbor of $250, and we pay to go to RO classes as well, must be self service. But at the end of the day here it is, it's a choice: If they try to change all the rules, which they say they not, and make it a pain for the old steel clubs to transition over to USPSA you can simply not attend. I'm pretty sure all clubs keep records for an untold period of time back. All they would have to do is present them to higher and say "Look this isn't working, we need to go back to the old way of doing steel to get participation where it was." But then again I do tend to over simplify things.

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Moving the match is like moving the Kentucky Derby or the Indy 500 or Camp Perry or Bisley. The place is part of the history and character and personality of the event.

The ATA moved The Grand American out of Vandalia, Ohio a few years ago because the City of Dayton (who owns the land the Airport sits on) said they wanted to expand the Airport. Haven't started on that as of yet. <_<

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Gary, Bruce, Rob, & Alan,

Thanks for your input. As I stated earlier, this can be good for each discipline. My concern was trying to turn SC into something it wasn't. By keeping Mike & Mike involved I believe this will be a smooth transition and a major turning point and great long term business decision for USPSA.

For those that have never tried the SC format, don't complain about not having the challenges of USPSA courses of fire. Steel Challenge is as pure a shooting test as you will find.

I will join Troy in offering to do anything I can to make this a success.

Edited to include Alan (who probably is more familiar with the SC than anyone on the BOD except Mike Voight)

Edited by TRNinTX
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Well, I am not opposed to the idea and I think it is a great event for the shooting community. It will probably continue to move the “shooting” sport in the right direction going forward. However, I am some what skeptical about some of the statements made here.

I think “we” the members count and we do matter, if you think we don’t you’re mistaken. It is important for the members to support our organization, on the other hand we are the reason why USPSA exists and vise versa.

Huge steps like this should have only one thing in mind, growth of the shooting sport in general. I am not in favor of any additional political agendas moving forward.

Again, I think we the member should support this decision and keep an eye on its progress.

My 2C.

Sandro

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Never been to the SC, but sounds like a great match.

I'm all for it. Steel shooting is great fun, and as others have said, is MUCH friendlier (read - easier) to the newer shooters.

On another train of thought, and maybe this is longer term...but might we begin to incorporate steel challenge stages into our regular uspsa club matches, under the 2008 rules? Could easily see - instead of the standard fare 4-5 field courses + classifier...have 3 field courses, 2 steel challenge stages, plus a classifier. Sounds like a fun change to me. Hmmmm...next NTPS match I run...

Edited by joseywales
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I thought about this more when I was picking up my car from the shop. I overheard the mechanic talking to another customer about shooting his shotgun and pistol through the winter because "It's so damn fun." I then stepped in and talked to the both of them about USPSA and 3-gun...they both seemed very interested, and I pulled up some info for them on my laptop.

3-gun was the conversational spark that may hopefully get them to join the sport. If having the SC does anything for USPSA, it is sure to create a larger membership base and reach out to shooters that are not attracted to the movement of traditional USPSA.

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We have several shooters in the area that shoot Steel and IPSC matches. We do three IPSC matches and two Speed Steel matches a month in the immediate area around where I live. There are also a couple big matches each year. One of these is a charity match that has three IPSC stages and three Speed Steel stages. We normally get about 100 people at that match, including many new shooters and LE. As for the speed steel program I see a lot of the same shooters there that I see at IPSC, but there are also lots of different folks that I've never seen before. If USPSA purchasing the rights to the Steel Challenge unifies many of the clubs that shoot nationwide under one set of rules that is easy for everyone to understand, I think that is great. If it opens up USPSA to a whole new group of shooters that may be interested I think that is great as well. I think this move offers great potential for USPSA. My hope is that USPSA does not treat the match the way that they treat the National Championships. I speak to many sponsors and the biggest complaint is the way they have been treated by USPSA and the office at Sedro Woolley. If they treat the SC sponsors the same way, the sponsors will go away, just like they have for the Nationals. IF they learn from the Mike's what works and listen to the sponsors about what doesn't work, this could be good for both USPSA and the Steel folks.

I hope this works. I know as members that we have two choices. We can work to help it succeed by participating or we can piss and moan and watch it wither on the vine. I know that I'll be shooting the next Steel match.

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First, I'm glad to hear that USPSA (for now) isn't going to try and USPSA the Steel Challenge. It is what is so leave it alone (that includes location, dates, etc.).

Second, my cautious optimism on this is only such due to the mindset difference between a 'widget' owned by 2 individuals who's goal is to put on a great match but also MAKE MONEY. There's a huge difference between holding a match for the sake of holding a match and doing so to make a profit. USPSA has shown that it does not understand this by the constant message that our National Championships cannot make a good profit even when 300+ show up.

The biggest lessons that USPSA can learn from acquiring the SC in my opinion:

- Simplified scoring systems make it great for shooters and spectators (SC has them...USPSA doesn't).

- Match dates are pretty well set in stone every year. Here we are in December of '07 and do we know the dates for the '08 Nationals?

- Divisions all shoot at the same time. There is no seperate match for Open, Limited, et. al. If USPSA went back to 1 National Championship, we could crown a true US Champion (again), Divisional champions and the match WILL sell out. Plus, go back to a 4-5 day format and you can easily have 20 stages.

There are more, but this is a start.

Rich

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One thing that Mike & Mike have with affiliate clubs and putting on any larger matches is. That " You can NOT go to the sponsors that already give to World event and ask for sponsorship. unless you get approval from "The Mikes"

So If I was to set up a Texas state + level match, I can not call up my buddies at S&W and pester the crapola out of them.

The sponsors get a breather from getting hounded on every angel & every event. =And that is a good thing.

Edited by AlamoShooter
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Everyone involved with USPSA's administration of the Steel Challenge should be locked in a room and forced to review the entire history of the match, both to understand why the people that go every year keep coming back and to understand why the changes Kerby introduced nearly killed it in the 90's. What failed was recognizing class winners, falling steel, and moving the location from Piru. Everyone involved should be required to shoot the match in 2008 as a competitor so they get to see it as it was before making any changes. Go back and study why Bianchi Cup has withered under NRA and why the SC came back from a coma to be as strong as it ever was.

Moving the match is like moving the Kentucky Derby or the Indy 500 or Camp Perry or Bisley. The place is part of the history and character and personality of the event.

The rules and the format and all the rest of it are part of the whole package.

Here's the sales pitch I give people about steel shooting in general:

1) Fewer skills to learn. Draw, shoot.

2) Scoring. Easy to understand and getting "one to throw away' is attractive to new shooters.

3) Stages are known in advance so you can practice them. How to practice is much more clear and obvious with steel stages compared to IPSC.

4) Because stage scores are well known you can easily gauge your ability level vs. the top shooters. USPSA makes the high hit factors secret which achieves nothing in my opinion.

5) Magazine capacity doesn't really matter. You don't even need mag pouches to compete - just a holster.

6) .22 friendly - great for beginners and kids

7) Matches are much faster to set up and tear down.

8) Don't have to go downrange and reset for every run.

9) Shooting steel will make you a more accurate shooter and improve your draw and target acquisition which will raise your IPSC and IDPA scores.

10) Fun, fun, fun.

Why the Steel Challenge in Piru is my favorite match and the best run match held every year

1) The match staff. It's not just the two Mikes that have made the match what it is. A lot of the staff has been working the match for years (decades?). The match is NOT "just for the pros".

2) If you show up and don't get DQed, you will get your match fee back in prizes even you are dead last. Most of the time the shooter's bag alone has $100 worth of stuff in it so even if you DQ you get goodies.

3) Side matches where you get to try new guns w/ random drawings where guns are given away

4) Scheduling. Half day on, half day off if you shoot one gun gives you time to enjoy the California sun and even drive to the beach.

5) Multiple entries. I had a ball shooting Limited _and_ Open this year.

6) Puts semiauto, DA wheelgun and cowboy sixgun shooters head to head. The data from Steel Challenge is a great source of knowledge about how optics vs iron sights and race holsters vs carry holster (IDPA class) affects performance, because you can actually look at data where top shooters very close in skill compete in the different categories or have double entries.

7) .22 pre-match

8) practice range

9) continuity in courses of fire make it possible to track your improvement year to year. It's much harder to do that in IPSC. Too many variables.

10) Location. Facilities, weather, staff, the 100+ shooters that have shot the match for years that keep coming back and keep it alive. More than anything I think changing the location hurt attendance in the 90's. Don't run off the "customers" you have now thinking that others will replace them. That idea failed once already.

Things USPSA could do to really totally screw it up:

1) Require people to earn "slots" to get into the match

2) Run off all the staff that are part of the character and personality of the match by requiring that all match ROs be USPSA certified and be managed by a USPSA RM unfamiliar with how things were done in the past.

3) Move it to Barry

4) Change the scoring so that no overall winner is declared and it's all separated by division.

5) Spin off so many Area and regional events that all start asking industry for prizes that the 'big match' suffers (I'm all for more steel matches but the scale of the match is part of its appeal and industry sponsorship is often a zero-sum game)

6) Put a USPSA person that has never shot the match, isn't a steel shooter already, or is similarly out of touch in charge of it.

7) Eliminate recognition of the IDPA and SASS categories because they aren't USPSA divisions

8) Eliminate double entries because they aren't allowed in USPSA matches

9) Change the scoring

10) Decide that each year's match needs "brand new stages" so it's more like IPSC

The least risky path is to make as few changes as possible and just try to maintain it as it is now.

It isn't broke so please don't fix it.

Karl

Karl, I think you've hit it square! +1
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Three BOD members have posted here tonight. All, repeat all, have stated that the SC will be ran as it always has been. None, I repeat, none have said a single word about changing the traditional SC match. No change in location, no change in dates, no change in rules, no change in structure, etc., etc.

It somewhat amazes me that there are continual post about what we should not change regarding the SC, when we have stated fairly clearly that we aren't changing anything.

Declare victory, there is no war, we all win.

Gary

Edited by Gary Stevens
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Three BOD members have posted here tonight. All, repeat all, have stated that the SC will be ran as it always has been. None, I repeat, none have said a single word about changing the traditional SC match. No change in location, no change in dates, no change in rules, no change in structure, etc., etc.

It somewhat amazes me that there are continual post about what we should not change regarding the SC, when we have stated fairly clearly that we aren't changing anything.

Declare victory, there is no war, we all win.

Gary

Now Gary...Not everybody has a foil hat like you and I to protect themselves from the black helicopters... :rolleyes:

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Gary,

Please don't get me wrong. I applaud you and the other AD's for taking the initiative to make this deal happen and making the commitment not to change anything. I am just expressing my hope that this policy continues despite any potential changes in the BoD. Thanks again for having the foresight and courage to take this step.

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I started my competitive shooting in So Cal and the Steel Challenge was one of the first Major matches I attended, I was there when the Steel Challenge was owned by Don Hamilton. Was there for the sale of the Steel Challenge to Kirby Smith. So I have seen first hand what happens when you try to change an Established Match that is successful. During my upcoming tenure on the USPSA BoD I can assure you that I will steadfast defend the Steel Challenge to continue in the traditions that have become the Event we know as the Steel Challenge.

Alan Meek

USPSA

Director Area 8 (Elect)

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I started my competitive shooting in So Cal and the Steel Challenge was one of the first Major matches I attended, I was there when the Steel Challenge was owned by Don Hamilton. Was there for the sale of the Steel Challenge to Kirby Smith. So I have seen first hand what happens when you try to change an Established Match that is successful. During my upcoming tenure on the USPSA BoD I can assure you that I will steadfast defend the Steel Challenge to continue in the traditions that have become the Event we know as the Steel Challenge.

Alan Meek

USPSA

Director Area 8 (Elect)

And now a word from our sponsors...

(insert baby kissing and handshakes with women and minorities...fade out to: "God Bless America") :rolleyes: He-He ;)

Edited by Barrettone
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