Is Singlestack A Failure?

[Nik Habicht]

If we subtract the unclassified shooters from the division totals (Hey, if like me in Open, someone can't even shoot it four times, they're not really participating in the division) we come up with these numbers:

Limited: 7409

Open: 4748

L10: 4611

Prod: 2950

Revolver: 879

[XRe]

Limited: 7409

Open: 4748

L10: 4611

Prod: 2950

Revolver: 879

And SSD: 14473 :D :D

[MikeFoley]

Finally some meaningful data, if only it existed for SS too.

[Flexmoney]

Folks...

I talked to Gary this past weekend...face-to-face.

What he is trying to hint at (rather bluntly) is that Limited-10 and Revolver, from his understanding, don't have much support from the USPSA Board Of Directors. And, that he is not a part of that...

If that doesn't sit well with you...don't waste your energy and time venting about it here, get in touch with your Board Of Directors !!!

[XRe]

If that doesn't sit well with you...don't waste your energy and time venting about it here, get in touch with your Board Of Directors !!!

But, gee, that would take real effort on someone's part....

+1... I thought Gary was being rather clear about all that, but...

[GeorgeInNePa]

If we subtract the unclassified shooters from the division totals (Hey, if like me in Open, someone can't even shoot it four times, they're not really participating in the division) we come up with these numbers:

Limited: 7409

Open: 4748

L10: 4611

Prod: 2950

Revolver: 879

The only problem with that is guys like me. I have a classification in L10, one classifier from 2003 and 4 from last year at one match. I probably will never shoot another one. How many of those 4611 are classified but will never shoot the division seriously.

[Carmoney]

Folks...

I talked to Gary this past weekend...face-to-face.

What he is trying to hint at (rather bluntly) is that Limited-10 and Revolver, from his understanding, don't have much support from the USPSA Board Of Directors. And, that he is not a part of that...

If that doesn't sit well with you...don't waste your energy and time venting about it here, get in touch with your Board Of Directors !!!

Well, since most of the BOD tunes in rigth here, I will use this forum to strongly urge them to consider trends in participation. I dunno about L-10, but Revolver participation is unquestionably on a major upswing. As one example, here are the number of shooters at the Kansas Sunflower Classic Sectional Championships, held in Topeka last month:

Limited 22

L-10 11

Open 20

Prod 14

Revolver 16

That's right, boys--Revo was the third most popular division, with more shooters than L-10 and Production at a major sanctioned match. Another example--last year at the Summer Blast there were 5 revolver entrants, the last I heard there were 29 wheels signed up for the '06 Blast next week!

I know this is some major-power-factor thread drift. So I'll throw in the comment that I think single-stack is a great idea, and if properly supported by USPSA's leadership it will become quite popular across the country. The exact same thing is true of Revolver division.

[Rob Boudrie]

USPSA has been maintaining a database of SS classifier scores so we will have some data in the event this becomes a regular division at the end of the trail period.

Some info:

Earliest SS classifier on file: January 1, 2006

2550 SS scores on file

809 unique members with at least one SS score on file

202 different clubs

650 classifier stages submitted

[mike4045]

If I had not built that expensive open gun I would be shooting single stack. I say single stack, because I hate 10 rd SS mags. If I shoot L-10 I would go with the old limited gun downloaded. I do like the idea of an 8 rd limit for SS in major cals. I would not want to be the one to decide if a divsion has to go. I do think SS division will bring in alot of crossover shooters.

Mike

[MikeFoley]

Thanks Rob for some more statistics that are relative.

[Sestock]

Folks...

I talked to Gary this past weekend...face-to-face.

What he is trying to hint at (rather bluntly) is that Limited-10 and Revolver, from his understanding, don't have much support from the USPSA Board Of Directors. And, that he is not a part of that...

If that doesn't sit well with you...don't waste your energy and time venting about it here, get in touch with your Board Of Directors !!!

Well, since most of the BOD tunes in rigth here, I will use this forum to strongly urge them to consider trends in participation. I dunno about L-10, but Revolver participation is unquestionably on a major upswing. As one example, here are the number of shooters at the Kansas Sunflower Classic Sectional Championships, held in Topeka last month:

Limited 22

L-10 11

Open 20

Prod 14

Revolver 16

That's right, boys--Revo was the third most popular division, with more shooters than L-10 and Production at a major sanctioned match. Another example--last year at the Summer Blast there were 5 revolver entrants, the last I heard there were 29 wheels signed up for the '06 Blast next week!

I know this is some major-power-factor thread drift. So I'll throw in the comment that I think single-stack is a great idea, and if properly supported by USPSA's leadership it will become quite popular across the country. The exact same thing is true of Revolver division.

83 shooters isn't really a major match. There are a lot of clubs that out do that on a monthly basis. Here in Western PA, SS is slightly ahead of Revolver, but way back of the other divisions.

[Vlad]

Just as a statistical note from New Jersey, there are two large monthly matches which I attended regularly. I do the scores for one of them and I help run the other one, and so far I don't think a single shooter asked to shoot Single Stack (Nik please correct me if I'm wrong about CJ). One did mark wrote L-8 as his division on a score sheet, and knowing his equipment, I scored him as SS, but that is about it. One match brings in about 60 to 70 shooters, the other 40 to 60. This is not to say that people do not shoot single stacks, they just use them in L10.

O.K. I'll correct you: I've had multiple inquiries and to date we've had one shooter in Single-Stack Division in January and March.......

Hmmmmm, maybe that should be a theme match in the fall......

Thanx Nik, I didn't know about the inquiries and I didn't remember anyone on the scores, but I do admit I wasn't paying that close attention. I still say that there is not all that much interest. If you want a theme match, I think it might be cool but I worry that a lot of people won't actually own a gun that matches the rules, or the rest of the gear for it.

Actually thats kinda my beef with SS anyway. I have no problem with another division. I think we should have as many divisions as we can get participants for. I thinks it is just peachy to have SS, L10, and Revo, even if no one shoots at every match. My problem with SS is that it tries to match some undefined picture of what a 1911 "should" be, and that has two failures: a) Not everyone agrees, and B ) It ignores the fact that the standards have moved forward. In my view SS is kinda the cowboy action divison of USPSA, intentionaly retro. Lastly I think it should be a SS division, not a 1911 division, allowing all single stack designs to play. I don't think that the Sig220's, Taurus P945, and Glock 36's are going to take over such a division, but it would give them a place to play.

Edited June 29, 2006 by Vlad

[RIIID]

Six months into a 36 month trial and the sheep are getting nerves . What a waste of this Forum there are more important items that need attention in USPSA.

Rich

[Bill Rosenthal]

Common sense and human nature... I'll state the obvious:

Until SS is fully recognized and awarded on a class level, it will be the "bastard child". Most people would like to walk away from a match with some kind of prize, especially from the bigger events. Everywhere else in life, one must commit to an endeavor from the beginning to be successful. The BOD cut the toilet seat in half on this one.

Here's your sign!

Bill Rosenthal

A29254

[EricBudd]

We had - at our little club match, Approx. 30% of the total shooters in the SS division the last two months. Of course this is a club where we have someone shoot L10 about once or twice a year. Perhaps it's the novelty or the "new thing" but looks like there is some interest. Several other shooters - Limited - have said they will bring and shoot SS guns - at some undetermined time... Definitely some "buzz" about SS around here...

That is very different from what I have seen at matches in NE PA. Out of 40-50 shooters at local matches I haven't seen more then two shooters at a match shooting SS. The bigest divisions around here seem to be Open, Limited, and Production.

[mcb]

Its pretty clear that club to club, person to person certain division are favored and other are less so and the favored division differs club to club, person to person. But what is wrong with this?

Does six divisions dilute competition?

If dilution is not the problem how does SS, L-10, and Revolver (the three division I see most often thrown on the chopping block) detract from the sport?

I have read many threads talking about getting rid of one division or another but I think I have missed the reason why. I previously missed on the divisions all having the same number of shooter, so I might just be being thick but...

Is the goal to have the most competitive arrangement of divisions? Then a single division would seem the best way to do that. No sandbagging hiding in smaller division possible.

Is the goal to get more involvement and grow the size of the sport? Then it would seem more divisions would be better giving each shooter a division the easily fits the equipment he has/wants to shoot.

My guess it that the real goal is to hit a happy medium and thus the contention here.

rambling

mcb

[ExtremeShot]

+++1.

Singlestack FREAKING STARTED IPSC....it is classic....you can' t Pray & Spray with 8 rounds

Some people wanted to shoot their singlestack, like they did in the old days when DVC really meant something.....

[revchuck]

I'm inferring a couple of divides here.

The first relates to income level. USPSA members tend to be more affluent than most people - USPSA HQ pushes this statistic to manufacturers, who support the sport with lots of guns and gizmos for prize tables, knowing that it's money well spent to advertise their wares. This benefits both shooters and manufacturers.

The downside to this is that some of us can't understand that money for more than powder, primers and bullets can be a problem...assuming that the money for powder, primers and bullets is there. Limited and Open guns are just not in the picture for these shooters. Shooting a major match, with entry fees, gas/plane and motel money is a rare treat.

The second has to do with the length of time in practical shooting. Some of us started shooting USPSA when big stick/dot-sighted guns were common, and consider that the norm. Others remember when Devel eight round mags came out and were the hot setup, and Browning High Powers were competitive.

There needs to be room for folks on both sides of these divides in USPSA, or the sport loses.

I don't feel that L10 and SS are mutually exclusive. Some states restrict magazine capacity to 10 rounds, regardless of what you use, so the shooters who want to shoot Limited in those states can shoot L10. Ditto the single stack guys/gals who don't like to reload as often. SS can be for traditionalists who like the original design, or want to shoot their carry gun (not everyone carries a J frame), or for those who don't have a couple grand to sink into a Limited or Open gun but still want to compete (and occasionally clean the clocks of the big stick shooters).

One of the reasons for IDPA's success is that USPSA had written off those shooters who couldn't afford a high-zoot gun. Then Production and Revolver and now Single Stack appeared, and a lot of IDPA shooters are now shooting both sports - a definite good thing all around. Eliminating SS - or L10 - would be a step backwards.

My input is worth exactly what you paid for it.

[Bob Hostetter]

A lot of people are probably like me in that for this year they are already commited to shooting another division so they are not shooting much SS. I am shooting Limited at the Nationals this year so I don't want to play around with anything else until the National's are over.

I did shoot the Dual Championships in Morro Bay in SS and had a lot of fun with it. I am considering shooting SS at the Area 2 but really don't want to be competing in a division with only a couple of shooters. Regardless of what I decide to do at Area 2 this year I will be shooting SS at several matches next year.

While I regularly shoot L-10 I believe SS is a better division then L-10. I also believe USPSA doesn't need another division. If SS is going to become permanent IMHO L-10 should be eliminated. If it does and people are concerned about their investment in 10 round SS mag's, then let people use them downloaded to 8 rounds for the first couple of years. Since the real purpose is to force the Hi Cap pistols back into Limited in would solve both problems.

[Paule]

Maybe USPSA is taking a page out of SASS's playbook. The cowboys never saw a new division they didn't like and their membership seems pretty happy about it. If a goal of USPSA is to continue increasing membership AND participation, eliminating divisions is a bad idea.

One thing I have seen over and over is that most shooters who like to compete also enjoy winning something on occasion. Plaques, certificates, and trophies are often far more lasting "treasures" than a lot of the stuff that ends up on prize tables. Think about who you know well that shoots a lot of matches. How many of them (us) have an "I love me" wall or room, where all the plaques and trophies go? I bet quite a few, maybe most.

As to Single Stack in particular, I can say personally that I have not shot it yet. I have, however, bought three pistols just for the new division. One I plan to customize myself (a new Colt Classic .45), the other two SVI SS.40's. The .40's are great, and shoot the same loads as my Limited guns. After getting the second one I decided I went a little overboard and decided to sell one. Took about five minutes. The number of folks who called about it was amazing. And I didn't advertise, just told one guy about it and showed it to a second (he bought it on the spot). Of the folks I talked to, virtually all are planning to shoot SS, but are looking for a gun to shoot it. For the record, most were what I consider younger guys, mostly 20-somethings, but they guy who bought it is pushing 50, liked the idea of a SS division, and bought the gun specifically to compete in SS.

Making the SS Classic a USPSA Nationals event was a great idea. Even better, plans to expand participation will be a boost too. Where my wife and I live there are no local matches. Decent ones are 1.5-2 hrs each way. So we travel a fair amount to big matches. If we are going anyway, might as well make it a little longer trip and enjoy the best events we can. But getting into the National matches is so difficult that we don't even try. I can only guess that more divisions will help clear this logjam and allow more people to attend the big matches. By comparison, the recent SASS End of Trail had 913 competitors, Mule Camp had 453, and neither turned anyone away, as far as I know. Just like USPSA matches, some come to compete seriously, others to enjoy the event and the camaraderie. Pretty good blueprint for success...

[tightloop]

The things that will attract folks to shoot SS are these (and I am sure to forget some):

1. Not as expensive to build your pistol.

2. No special gear needed.

3. No special magazines needed.

4. It is classic.

5. SS lovers will feel they have a place of their own w/o the wide body crowd taking over, or having to use a magazine hanging out of their pistol that looks like a shock absorber off a Peterbuilt.

It probably will never find the acceptance that Limited has, it does not have the G Whiz factor that Open guns have...but I believe that it will have a devoted following rather like the revo shooters...and yes, with the creation of SS Division, they could do away with L-10..it was the red headed step child anyway..and lets face it....not every division in USPSA other than Revolver needs to find a place for the hi cap crowd...they already have Open and Limited...the SS crowd is merely asking for one of their own. And if you took a poll, I am sure the majority of the SS shooters would tell you the look of a 10 round mag hanging from their pistol is an abomination....Inclusive with the acceptance of SS, match directors would make lots of points if they had 25% of the stages with 17 rounds or less...one reload for SS users. Ok, the Open and Limited guys will win the stage, but you will get kudos from the SS shooters who don't have to make 4 reloads to the Open shooters none like on the long field courses..

It is about offering a little something for everyone...and as the Revo shooters have been screaming for a long time...not everyone wants to shoot a pistol sporting a Big Stick mag..or one that costs 3k to build and equip..

Edited June 29, 2006 by tightloop

[Chuck D]

"One of the reasons for IDPA's success is that USPSA had written off those shooters who couldn't afford a high-zoot gun. Then Production and Revolver and now Single Stack appeared, and a lot of IDPA shooters are now shooting both sports - a definite good thing all around. Eliminating SS - or L10 - would be a step backwards."

agreed....

"Some states restrict magazine capacity to 10 rounds, regardless of what you use, so the shooters who want to shoot Limited in those states can shoot L10. "

This is the element of the discussion that is constantly and consistantly LOST on some people. The AWB ban isn't fully over...some are stuck with it for a very long time. To simply state that we that have this problem can just "go back to limited" isn't true.

Members of the BOD's as well as the USPSA President come from these affected areas. Keeping an existing (and successful) 10 round Division like L10 should be a no-brainer.

My AD as well as other members of the BOD's are well aware of my position. You get concrete answers from some, vague responses from others and then there are others whom are "reluctant"to share their true intentions or beliefs.

At any given time, USPSA could end this debate by either regulating SS to Divisional status or restructuring SS and L10 so they are competition categories under the Limited Division banner and EVERYONE would be happy.

Agendas have blocked these proposals...thus far.

Edited June 29, 2006 by Chuck D

[JFD]

These threads just result in me losing my cool, so I'm going to try hard to be good

The thought that SS shooters are scared of widebody guns in L-10 is pure BS.

Look at any of the threads here on the subject of SS in L-10 and you will find very few (if any) actual L-10 shooters who feel threatened by downloaded Limited guns. It seems to be the folks who don't shoot L-10 who believe this is a problem.

Lose touch with the membership and the membership will go elsewhere.

[nipplehead]

These threads just result in me losing my cool, so I'm going to try hard to be good

The thought that SS shooters are scared of widebody guns in L-10 is pure BS.

Look at any of the threads here on the subject of SS in L-10 and you will find very few (if any) actual L-10 shooters who feel threatened by downloaded Limited guns. It seems to be the folks who don't shoot L-10 who believe this is a problem.

Lose touch with the membership and the membership will go elsewhere.

+1 JFD AND take a look (Listen) BOD

Edited June 29, 2006 by nipplehead

[tightloop]

It isn't about the SS guys being scared of the wide body guys....the fact is that in the last few years, the main emphasis has been on building wide body guns and trying to accomodate those shooters who had them...and accomodate them regardless of shortchanging any other divisions, such as revo, and L-10...

If the wide body guys want to only shoot 10 rounds, let them shoot production....they have plenty of places to practice their skills with the wide guns...Open if they prefer optics, Limited if they like irons, and they could shoot Production too.. Give the SS guys their own place, gear 25% of the stages to 17 rounds or less and you will have more shooters than you can handle..

I can understand the plight of the revo shooters..they have suffered too long without anyone really going to bat for them...well, it is time for change. the Revo shooters deserve classifiers not based off Limited scores..just like SS should have their own..and as someone in this thread said..if the BOD can't see this, maybe there should be a change there too...

Stick up for what you want..be vocal, be polite, be positive, but voice your opinion..if you don;t noone will ever know that you might like a change..tell your AD and the Big Dawgs every chance you get...I understand that some of the states are still saddled with only 10 rounds for their hi cap guns...but Production could take up the slack if the major/minor requirements were reinstated there...there is no reason for Production to be just the realm of 9mm minor........

And while I am here, might as well throw another granade...what is up with allowing 9mm major in Open and nowhere else...I mean, if it makes major, it makes major, regardless of bullet diameter...that is the way it should be...and there should be major/minor scoring in each division/category of pistol/handgun being shot.. Just MHO...