Is Singlestack A Failure?

[nipplehead]

Of 18 major matches reporting so far this year, and excluding any single stack only matches, the numbers are as follows:

Limited 1112 shooters 33%

Open 926 shooters 28%

Production 594 shooters 18%

L-10 474 shooters 14%

Single Stack 138 shooters 4%

Revolver 113 shooters 3%

Gary

Well thats nice and its easy to compute , but I bet at the local level ( the bread and butter of the sport)...L10 and Open are much closer. Major matches and local matches do not nessesarily track the same. After all there is a much bigger money commitment to shoot Open than L10. and the person who can afford Open is more likely to spend the money to go to major matches.

[Chuck D]

Anyone notice that whenever SS Division is mentioned the ELIMINATION of L10 Division is either advocated or predicted?

Question #2: Why would anyone use Nationals participation figures as a benchmark for predicting Division success? Well before the USPSA SS Nationals there was a Single Stack classic and I'd dare mention that the SSC would have survived and thrived without USPSA's involvement.

To claim that the success of the SS Nationals, regardless of the fact that USPSA "piggybacked" upon the proven success of an already established non-USPSA sanctioned match, is proof positive of "growth" is lame.

Come 2007, we'll see if TRUE growth has occured. If it has...excellent. If it has NOT...then end the L10 "disappearing" talk with the same furvor in which it got started in the first place.

4% / 138 shooters.....wow.

Edited June 29, 2006 by Chuck D

[nipplehead]

Of 18 major matches reporting so far this year, and excluding any single stack only matches, the numbers are as follows:

Limited 1112 shooters 33%

Open 926 shooters 28%

Production 594 shooters 18%

L-10 474 shooters 14%

Single Stack 138 shooters 4%

Revolver 113 shooters 3%

Gary

Well those numbers at major matches are very nice and handy;but I bet if you could do the same calculations at the local match level you would find L10 and Open numbers much closer.

Please do not down play the fact that the open shooter has a much bigger investment just to shoot that class and is more likely to able to afford and compete in major matches then his L10 counterpart. That might be what is reflected in the above numbers.

SORRY THIS IS A REPEAT THAT I CAN'T DELEAT!!!! THE ABOVE DISAPPEARED WHEN THE FORUM WENT DOWN BUT KNOW ITS BACK

Edited June 29, 2006 by nipplehead

[shred]

FWIW, the only two classes where L10 shooters outnumber Open shooters is C & D with U about tied. What does that say? If we really cared, somebody could pull all the classifiers shot over the past 10 years and compare, but I bet Open would still win out by a fair bit.

[mcb]

FWIW, the only two classes where L10 shooters outnumber Open shooters is C & D with U about tied. What does that say? If we really cared, somebody could pull all the classifiers shot over the past 10 years and compare, but I bet Open would still win out by a fair bit.

If your using the number on USPSA's website there is something funky going on with them.

From the: USPSA Class Distribution as of page

Number of Shooters In each Class

Class Open Limited Ltd 10 Production Revolver

GM 113 109 17 21 1

M 459 407 137 88 26

A 698 757 393 244 64

B 1469 2003 942 590 175

C 1550 2912 2060 1269 418

D 459 1221 1062 738 195

U 9725 7064 9862 11523 13594

Total 14473 14473 14473 14473 14473

The format is not all that great but look at the total at the bottom. I pasted the numbers into Excel and summed them to see which division had the most shooters and wow. The all total to the same amount??? What is going on?

mcb

[ima45dv8]

It's nothing nefarious. The data represents the classifications (U through GM) shown on all members records.

[mcb]

It's nothing nefarious. The data represents the classifications (U through GM) shown on all members records.

Your say that there is exacly 14473 in each class??? I can't believe that at all. There is something funky here or I'm not reading that chart correctly.

mcb

[uscbigdawg]

Of the two, L10 and SS, I would be more inclined to remove L10. The reason is that it was intended, at least in my opinion, to allow for full house Limited guns to be built, race holsters to be used, etc. where you couldn't get or didn't want to buy high cap mags. Now that the AWB is gone, that's not as big an issue any longer. Too, it was (and is) an affordable way for folks to enter the sport with the only real hinderance being holsters, mag pouches, etc.

Now, as we're trying to draw more new shooters, having to "retool" for SS is a huge gain for drawing in IDPA shooters that maybe want to cross over. It's probably why Production has done as well as it has. The equipment by and large is already owned by these shooters and it's just a matter of learning a different set of rules/thiking.

I'm still figuring out what the limitations/equipment rules are for SS, and hopefully my carry gun is legal with its welded on magwell. If not, got a great excuse to have Benny or Rusty work on one of the other 1911's in the safe. BTW, is a STI/SV with the single stack grip/mag attachments legal in SS? Should be if everything else is compliant.

Bottom line, L-10 has probably served its usefulness with the sunset of the AWB. After all, what were the two primary pistol you saw in L-10? STI/SV pistols and Glocks. With the sunset, STI/SV's can now go to Limited and the Glocks can go to either Limited or Production (depending on what shooting platform...holster, etc.) the shooter wants to use that day.

Just my two cents.

Rich

It's nothing nefarious. The data represents the classifications (U through GM) shown on all members records.

Yep. I'm unclassified in Production, Revolver and L-10 (I think).

Rich

[Religious Shooter]

There is exactly 14473 shooters in each DIVISION. Not in each class.

If you are unclassified in a division you are lumped under "U" for that division.

[Gary Stevens]

Chuck the eliminate L-10 train was on the track prior to the SS division. It is still on the track and moving right along. I wouldn't be surprised if Revolver was riding along in the caboose. Just my opinion though.

Gary

Edited June 29, 2006 by Gary Stevens

[mcb]

I hate the talk about getting rid of L-10. I shoot an XD-40 I have put a lot of work into it to make it a dedicated L-10 gun. If L-10 goes away I'm stuck. The XD-40 can't be competitive in Limited due to the fact that it's magazine are really 9mm width. You will never get more than 16 rounds in a 140mm magazine using and XD-40 magazine tube. I don't want to go to production I have lots of time and energy into the fabrication of my own custom magazine well and extra thick base pads for my XD. Part of the fun of L-10 is I can tweaking my XD a lot more than I can in Production. Not to mention I like reloading on the clock, the Limited and more so the Open shooters get short change with their big magazines. Reloading is fun! So if you L-10 haters get your way and L-10 goes away then I will be forced to just shoot revolver all the time. Woe unto you if I ever got as good as Jerry and beat you with my revolver you Limited/Open snobs.

Just poking fun don't take that too serious but I would be bummed if L-10 went away.

mcb

There is exactly 14473 shooters in each DIVISION. Not in each class.

If you are unclassified in a division you are lumped under "U" for that division.

Dang, the light bulb just went on never mind my complete brain fart.

mcb

[baa]

For what its worth, locally, Single Stack has a fair showing and we have had multiple IDPA shooters participate in USPSA in that division (as well as production.) I am one of the IDPA shooters who has gone over to the "Dark Side" in part because I can shoot my CDP gun. IDPA has a lot of issues and a lot of shooters are looking around for other related action shooting sports to participate in. I do believe that SS and production are where USPSA will attract new shooters and even if those shooters ultimately shoots Open or Limited as they get into the sport, it is worth having these "gateway" divisions.

Perhaps it is because I am relatively new to USPSA but I really don't see why people are threatened by this new division. I would think it is better to have a larger membership base shooting more divisions. That makes for a healthly sport.

Edited June 29, 2006 by baa

[Chuck D]

"Chuck the eliminate L-10 train was on the track prior to the SS division. It is still on the track and moving right along. I wouldn't be surprised if Revolver was riding along in the caboose. Just my opinion though."

Yup...I'm sure it is...and fueled by those operating in the shadows and claiming to be impartial.

[shred]

Total 14473 14473 14473 14473 14473

The format is not all that great but look at the total at the bottom. I pasted the numbers into Excel and summed them to see which division had the most shooters and wow. The all total to the same amount??? What is going on?

mcb

Everybody has a classification in every division, even if it's a 'U'. Subtract the U's and you get a better idea of the actual number of shooters per division.

[Gary Stevens]

Chuck I am sorry you feel that way.

Gary

[MarkS_A18138]

Oh the Drama!!!! How I love it so! I think it's time to go back to the darkside!!!!

Skeet shooting.LOL!!!

[Vlad]

"Chuck the eliminate L-10 train was on the track prior to the SS division. It is still on the track and moving right along. I wouldn't be surprised if Revolver was riding along in the caboose. Just my opinion though."

Yup...I'm sure it is...and fueled by those operating in the shadows and claiming to be impartial.

Amusingly USPSA seems to be proud of its recent high water mark of 15000 members. Anyone want to take some bets which way those numbers would go if L10 and R get eliminated?

As another pseudo-statistical point, the matches in my area see a strange participation curve with the number of Limited, L10, and Production shooters almost equal (say about 17 shooters each on the average), Open moves between nothing and the numbers of L, L10, and Prod, most often much less then either of those. Around here, Open seems to be the "old guys" division, and I'm using that as a very broad characterization being the JJ is a regular, and so are a couple more young open shooters. Still, the big interest seems to be focused on iron sighted guns which feed from a magazine, most matches we have NO revolver shooters. Open seems to be only popular with a few very young and fast, and mostly popular with some of the shooters who have been around for a while, and are just used to shooting open, because thats what they've done for many years. Even so, a lot of them switch to iron sighted guns more and more.

Again, not a single person that I know off asked to shoot SS. Since the division came to be I would say about 700 or 800 registrations sheets have been filed at local matches I participate in, plus another another 400 to 500 registrations for our "practice" indoor matches we hold twice a month. Again, as far as I know, not a single SS registration.

However we must have had about 200 or more L10 registrations. I can sure see the wisdom of canceling L10, its not like we want more members or anything. Hey I know .. Do we need Production anymore?

[MarkS_A18138]

So that's the reason I don't shoot open class, It's for old guys! hehehe! Shred that means you! hahahah! I am sorry! I almost shot open last night at our tuesday night match. Shot my limited! Not that old yet.

[Flyin40]

Come up here to North East Ohio Flyin40. We have had 10+ single stack shooter each time at Crooked Creek for our first three matches this year. I think SS will make it if they get it out of the goofy testing period and give it real classifier score and the such. SS is a lot bigger than Revolver and open at most of our matches. I am usuallyone of two revovler shooters at our matches. If we have three revovler shooters I start feeling crowded. :-D

mcb

I know, I checked you guys out before I made the post. You had the most participation in SS division in Ohio.

I might try to make it up some weekend and shoot with you guys. How far are you from Cleveland???? Make a weekend trip of it. I used to work up there and always hit Barnacle Bills for all you can eat Crab legs. I think they closed down but could probably find another place to try.

Flyin40

Flyin40

[Vlad]

Hey now .. I didnt say Open was for old guys. I'm just telling you what happens to be the status in my neck of the woods.

[Merlin Orr]

Some of this thread is informative

Some/most is amusing

The mudslinging and personal attacks are neither.

[uscbigdawg]

Hey I know .. Do we need Production anymore?

Actually, we need Production. Gotta put the Glocks, Sigs and Berettas some where. Basically, I see production as a PERFECT spot for entry level shooters to get into the sport for VERY little money and where IDPA guys in the ESP & SSP divisions can run and win.

L-10 is great, don't get me wrong. I dusted off my first IPSC 1911 to shoot the 2-3 classifiers that I have with it. The "problem" is that as soon as the division started there was whining from the SS guys say that the hi-cap frames have an advantage over the SS pistols 'cause it's easier to reload. I'm of the mind that if you practice enough you can reload equally as well, but may be in the minority on this.

That being said, SS is a perfect spot for CDP pistols and whatever modifications we're allowed to make (I still haven't read all the rules yet). From the sounds of it, it's not anywhere near the mod's we can make to a Limited pistol, and you use carry gear. Nothing wrong with that, except it's a division designed around one pistol. Probably my only complaint, but it's the pistol that this sport is built on and there's no "other" place for it, if L-10 goes away (which I'm a huge fan of).

The rub is that there are a lot of guys that shoot L-10 with their STI/SV's, Glocks and now apparently XD's. The difference though is, as stated above, there are other divisions that these pistols can run in and win.

Rich

[ima45dv8]

Dang, the light bulb just went on never mind my complete brain fart.

mcb

No sweat. They're contagious and you might have caught this one from me.

[Nik Habicht]

Just as a statistical note from New Jersey, there are two large monthly matches which I attended regularly. I do the scores for one of them and I help run the other one, and so far I don't think a single shooter asked to shoot Single Stack (Nik please correct me if I'm wrong about CJ). One did mark wrote L-8 as his division on a score sheet, and knowing his equipment, I scored him as SS, but that is about it. One match brings in about 60 to 70 shooters, the other 40 to 60. This is not to say that people do not shoot single stacks, they just use them in L10.

O.K. I'll correct you: I've had multiple inquiries and to date we've had one shooter in Single-Stack Division in January and March.......

Hmmmmm, maybe that should be a theme match in the fall......

[MikeFoley]

Here is how participation was divided on Sunday at a popular local match with 88 entries, of which 26 were re-entries for a second gun. Airedale shot Production with his 8 shot revolver, likely just to askew the numbers.

Limited 32

Singlestack 17

L10 14

Production 14

Open 10

Revolver 1