Is Singlestack A Failure?

[tightloop]

Nipplehead

I appreciate your understanding on this topic...

It is not a change of pace anymore than L-10 is a change of pace to Open...and as far as committing totally to it...I went to 5 US Nationals and 3 World shoots with a singlestack...how much committment do you need..even thinking of dusting off the Govt mod and coming out of retirement to give it a whack...My problem with the whole USPSA thing is, IMO, the total waste of equating quality stages to number or rounds fired, number of targets set,and amount of movement required...Again, IMO, you do not have to run the equivilent of several city blocks, engage a sea of targets and shoot over 30 rounds to have a quality stage that tests the shooters mental acuity and shooting prowess....I think both of those things can be accomplished within the scope of two singlestack reloads MAX...if that sounds like IDPA, forgive me...I have shot both, but was IPSC first and for a long time..

If you take the time to really look at this forum, there are lots and lots of folks here that shoot more than one division...usually at the same match...

You hit the nail on the head...MOST of the shooters competing today want to shoot as many rounds as they can during a match...probably for several reasons: it is fun, they like it, they don;t get to shoot during the week as much as they want to, and that is what they "grew up shooting" when they started USPSA...

As has been debated on this very forum, in great detail...are the philosophy changes and equipment changes as they relate to action shooting today vs action shooting B4 1984 or so...when Hi cap guns and dot sights became the norm rather than the oddity at matches, both big and small...the advent of Limited and L-10 have been an attempt to appease those shooters who wanted an option to spending many thousands of dollars building and maintaining an Open pistol for matches, plus it gave shooters the option of shooting iron sights rather than optics, and it sort of tried to get back most of the way to the roots of the sport...(in that regard it failed)....If the organizers and administrators of the sport could have rubbed really hard on that crystal ball....I feel sure they would have started out with Limited and SS and there would be no L-10 at this time...most of the L-10 shooters initially were SS shooters who could compete with the added expense of 10 round mags and little else...then came the influx of the hi cap guns into L-10...it is easier to hit that big mag well rather than the small one...

Most of that is conjecture on my part, as noone from HQ called me to ask my opinion...and as you can see from both our posts on this and other topics, I have an opinion about most things...LOL...but I really do feel it is unfair to condemn those of us who wish to compete without having to spend thousands on pistols, hi cap mags, special rigs, etc, becausethe "numbers" in your local area don't show it to be growing at a rate sufficient to convince you..

Give it a chance...Personally I never thought Production would amount to a hill of beans, but look at it...it is a huge stage and growing all the time...I think that if USPSA can validate and support a division for revolver shooters who have in their midst the total of ONE Grand Master shooter...they can cettainly support and validate a Single Stack division, who happens to have the Grandest Master of iron sight shooting ever, TGO...forget his other participation in other divisions...

But again, all this is MHO,and noone elses...so perhaps I should take my .53 and head off for a cup of Folgers regular coffee with the rest of the SS shooters instead of getting $6.00 out of my pocket and heading to Starbucks with the rest of the Open and Limited shooters who want to run & gun, spray & pray while running a respiratory arrest inducing sprint in the Summer heat..

Thanks for your time and understanding...especially if you read this entire rambling post...

[Mick]

Long live hicap guns and long field courses with 32 rounds!!!

Mick

A27257

[Merlin Orr]

But again, all this is MHO,and noone elses...so perhaps I should take my .53 and head off for a cup of Folgers regular coffee with the rest of the SS shooters instead of getting $6.00 out of my pocket and heading to Starbucks with the rest of the Open and Limited shooters who want to run & gun, spray & pray while running a respiratory arrest inducing sprint in the Summer heat..

post...

Very good.

Actually I guess I like Folgers. But - there is room for all of us in USPSA. No one needs to pee in either the Folgers or the Starbucks cup.

[tightloop]

Mick

different strokes for different folks.... Just my opinion, you are entitled too...

BTW...Darth Vader is not allowed to post on this thread...

Edited June 28, 2006 by tightloop

[Vlad]

Just as a statistical note from New Jersey, there are two large monthly matches which I attended regularly. I do the scores for one of them and I help run the other one, and so far I don't think a single shooter asked to shoot Single Stack (Nik please correct me if I'm wrong about CJ). One did mark wrote L-8 as his division on a score sheet, and knowing his equipment, I scored him as SS, but that is about it. One match brings in about 60 to 70 shooters, the other 40 to 60. This is not to say that people do not shoot single stacks, they just use them in L10.

Edited June 28, 2006 by Vlad

[mike_pinto]

We've had a few. Check the overalls at http://ipsc.okcgunclub.org/06scores/jun06/jun06_ovr.htm

We really host that many shooters every month, but only had 1 SS competitor. I think we have had up to 6. I also hear around the club that once your scores "count" in SS, alot more people will shoot it..

BTW don't look at my scores!!

Mike

[tightloop]

Vlad

Point taken...just like revo shooting...SS probably does not appeal to everyone...

[Carmoney]

...I think that if USPSA can validate and support a division for revolver shooters who have in their midst the total of ONE Grand Master shooter...

Careful now. There is one GM in Revolver division only because nobody has ever bothered to set up realistic national high hit factors for Revolver. Participation in revolver is growing fairly dramatically, even outstripping some other divisions at several major matches this year, so USPSA needs to address this issue quickly.

[tightloop]

Carmoney

Not meaning to offend any of the round gun shooters...However, you could be the one to carry the torch to get that corrected if you were of a mind to do so...I am sure others would appreciate it, and I would be interested to see just how many GM's there might be in Revolver....I know Jerry is a man among boys, but seems like if one guy could do it, others could too..I might be wrong there though....

[Merlin Orr]

...I think that if USPSA can validate and support a division for revolver shooters who have in their midst the total of ONE Grand Master shooter...

Careful now. There is one GM in Revolver division only because nobody has ever bothered to set up realistic national high hit factors for Revolver. Participation in revolver is growing fairly dramatically, even outstripping some other divisions at several major matches this year, so USPSA needs to address this issue quickly.

Mike, I see from your Avatar what you are shooting. How the heck can USPSA develop a hit factor for you chosen "weapon?"

My moonclips came in today.....

I know Jerry is a man among boys,.....

More a machine among mortals of muscle and bone....

[Mistral404]

The WSSSC was in AZ in Jan. It was a roaring success.

The Dual Championship was in CA last month and it was a success.

As in the Frontsight article about the WSSSC there were unclassified shooters participating in USPSA matches. This was true of the Dual Championship in CA.

In local matches I shoot my SS in L10 as SS-8 round mags, holster placement etc.

I see the SS Division as growing. Your initial assessment did still some negative feelings in me. I just found your wording offensive. Why not just leave the topic alone for a while. Let it be with out making any rash judgements or statements about it validity, future, worth.

[Gary1911A1]

At the Single Stack Classic this year Gary Stevens told me they are thinking of adding another day for 100 more shooters next year as they had to turn people away. I prefer SS to other divisions and even in thoses states and community that limit capacity to 10 rounds I would say few are shooting high capacity 1911s' loaded with only 10 rounds. I would say most L10 Shooters are already shooting single stack 1911s'. Just my thoughts.

[Gary Stevens]

There are numerous factors that enter in to the Provisional Single Stack Division. Some of them are we are only 6 months into a proposed 3 year experiment. Perhaps a little too soon to make an informed decision. Another factor is that because gun company budgets have to be finalized a year ahead, we got into the 2006 season without any companies having budgeted money to promote sponsorship and prizes. I hope that will improve in 2007. The numbers indicate that SS is drawing more shooters in the first 6 months of existence than the Revolver Division has after how ever many years. Apples and oranges I guess, but based on simple numbers, it is factual. I designed it to be a test of the free market. Therefore some clubs and matches are not offering it. That is fine. If there is a demand then I feel sure those clubs and matches will listen to their members and offer it.

The Single Stack Classic which was billed as the USPSA Nationals had the highest number of shooters that I think they have ever had, and had to turn people away. USPSA gained 45 new members at that single match and I was told about half of them were IDPA shooters. Is that earth shaking? No, but it is a good start. Springfield Armory wants to expand it to 300+ shooters next year over 3 days and perhaps 400+ the year after that over 4 days. This would still be a single day shooting event as I understand it though.

I see more and more talk about Single Stack but much of it is divided by geography. Some places it is getting hotter while in others it is still ho-hum I'll just stay in L-10. It is no secret that there are those in power that want L-10 to disappear. If that happens, it will be interesting to see how the landscape shapes up.

Gary

Edited June 28, 2006 by Gary Stevens

[MarkS_A18138]

Well since we are back talking about SS and rehashing old crap! I vote we start SS open class!(help us out Gary) any takers???????

LET IT GO my child! SS will run it's course good or bad! I WILL BE ON THIS RIDE UNTIL IT ENDS or UNTIL WE TAKE OVER!

Oh Singlestack is not a Failure! Don't knock till you try it!

[Bill Rosenthal]

I'm actually considering single stack for most of the matches this year. Summer Blast, Aware, local, just to show support. I'm an average "B" class shooter that's not in the hunt. The hits become better... you just can't afford the standing reloads! The better shooters will still kick your tail no matter what they shoot. I would like to see everyone use the same (basic) equipment and let the chip's fall where they may. The majority of all sports are like this, you know, for a reason. The most gratification that I have experienced in this sport is accomplishing more with less... and with an auto, you can't get any less than 8 rounds! Some years back I won C-class open at Area 8 with a single stack .45 comp gun and 8rd mags whilst everyone else was using 38 stupid hi-caps. It was that much sweeter!

Bill Rosenthal

A29254

Edited June 29, 2006 by Bill Rosenthal

[wide45]

How can a mistake be a failure?

I don't get Single Stack. If that is your thing, knock yourselves out. I won't stop you. Please be quiet about it, and don't be disapointed if I'm not cheering for you.

[ima45dv8]

I just checked one of our local indoor weekly league shoots and over the last 12 weeks the SS division has accounted for 19.4% of the entries. Our larger outdoor monthly matches seem to be running 8-10%. That's still higher than revolver (apologies to Mike and the other BRT shooters).

What I guess I don't understand is the fuss that seems to come up over this.

The question was asked, "....was this worth creating another division over?" Not sure what is meant by "worth". As far as I know, no large investment has been made to implement this idea. There was some work to add the division to EzWinScore. Can anyone say what that cost? No additional data entry is being performed at USPSA HQ because the classifiers aren't being entered, so no expense there. Clubs aren't being forced to offer it unless their customers demand it -- and that's a very positive thing if/when it happens. If/when they do, their trophy expense shouldn't change much since those people probably would have taken home wood in another division if not shooting SS.

Looks to me like the most effort and expense associated with the new division is burned up on this forum by people who don't shoot it and want it to go away.

Of course there's those additional electrons burned up by Mr. Sunshine when he took this as another opportunity to rant about how much better it was in the good ol' days ( ).

[nipplehead]

I see more and more talk about Single Stack but much of it is divided by geography. Some places it is getting hotter while in others it is still ho-hum I'll just stay in L-10. It is no secret that there are those in power that want L-10 to disappear. If that happens, it will be interesting to see how the landscape shapes up.

Gary

Why would "the powers" want to do away with a division that is larger that open ? It seems many people enjoy L10; at least if you go by the numbers. I thought that we would accommadate not do away with. I suppose it would force people that now compete with single stacks in L10 to either quit or go to SS.

Its a shame if USPSA would turn their back on members that spent a few hundred on 10 round mags and race holsters and belts. Of course that would make Gary "right" about his division. Too bad that would cost others that we perfectly happy where they were.

[JFD]

It's way too early to say SS will be successful or a flop, even though it will flop in the end.

Around here folks shoot their SSs in L-10. We had 1 SS shooter for a couple of months, then he went back to Limited. The exact same thing happens with the Revolver division.

Not allowing ALL single stacks to play, restrictive Production equipment rules, and no 10 rounds mags for major will be the reason this division fails. If it doesn't fail, then I'd call it a miracle. Of course this is my opinion only although I can speak for my wife as well. She's already made it very clear that she will never give up the 10 round mags or the Ghost holster. She'll be shooting Limited soon so that both of us can ignore this issue.

Women and folks just starting out are the key to growing the sport. Saddling us with a division that seems to be driven by oldsters remembering their glory days tells me the sport has serious problems.

I hope I'm wrong.

[MarkS_A18138]

How can a mistake be a failure?

I don't get Single Stack. If that is your thing, knock yourselves out. I won't stop you. Please be quiet about it, and don't be disapointed if I'm not cheering for you.

What? None of the SS guys started this tread! We have not been saying anything about the class! I could careless if you don't shoot SS! Just don't condemn the class before it has got off the ground. (Only been around for 7 months)You’re not scared it’s going to replace L10 are you? I hope it doesn’t. Damn Mike C now I know how you Revo guy’s feel! All back of the bus! This is not a Widebody vs. skinny gun thing!

LOL!!!!!!!

[Gary Stevens]

Let's leave Gary out of the L-10 elminiation group. I've made my position on this very clear. Because of the appearance of a conflict of interest, due to Single Stack, I doubt that I would even vote on a motion to eliminate L-10.

As to why anyone would want to eliminate L-10, I would suggest those who are interested contact their Area Director and the President and discuss it with them.

I also doubt that L-10 is larger than Open. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Gary

[nipplehead]

Let's leave Gary out of the L-10 elminiation group. Because of the appearance of a conflict of interest, due to Single Stack, I doubt that I would even vote on a motion to eliminate L-10.

I also doubt that L-10 is larger than Open. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Gary

If its not bigger its close enough that it really does not matter.

[Gary Stevens]

Of 18 major matches reporting so far this year, and excluding any single stack only matches, the numbers are as follows:

Limited 1112 shooters 33%

Open 926 shooters 28%

Production 594 shooters 18%

L-10 474 shooters 14%

Single Stack 138 shooters 4%

Revolver 113 shooters 3%

Gary

[38superman]

I predict that participation will grow.

I say this because I'm betting that there are a lot of people like myself out there that haven't shot SS yet, but will when the time is right.

Last fall I decided I was going to shoot L10 this season.

I spent a lot of money building my L10 rig (not a single stack) and I want to shoot it.

I also entered the L10 Point Series for the year.

That pretty well locks me into the L10 division for the major matches until I have fulfilled the Point Series participation requirement.

After Nationals I'll start thinking about a different division but for the moment, I have a plan and I'm sticking to it.

However, I certainly would jump into any SS only matches and plan to shoot the "Tennessee Hillbilly Classic" later this year.

I think it's way too soon to start making judgements about SS division.

USPSA commited to a 3 year run.

Let's wait and see where we stand at that time.

Tony

[zhunter]

L-10, in my area, is a VERY poorly supported Division. I can't speak for other areas, but Central and south Florida are Open and Limited Division heavy, with some production thrown in too.

Yeah, those are just my thoughts, and yes, I am gonna give it a try. I am into the iron sights, albeit Limited or Single Stack.

This is kind of like the problems we have in the hunting world:

Gun hunters don't like Bow hunters

Black Powder hunters don't like Bow hunters

Bow hunters don't like gun carrying poaching people of any kind.

The divisions within a sport only help to create divisions which give fuel to the anti's, whether it is hunting or guns.

CAN'T we all just get alone. Pick a Division, shoot it and be happy!!!! And for josh sakes, let's supports our fellow members in whatever choice they make!!!!!

Edited June 28, 2006 by zhunter