Skywalker Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) During the Florida Open I was forced to switch back from a FO front sight to a plain black sight (the airline transportation had it bumping into the case frame to the point it eventually got loose). It is now 1 month I regularly train with it and I want to air my impressions. I've become more and more precise since the switch. I was not able to hold a decent (for me) group @ 25m, with shots all over the target in well-aimed slow fire; yesterday I was able to print a 5-rounds 5cm group @ the same distance. All I had to do is to get a nice, clean and crisp front sight picture, and decent trigger control. Moreover, it's since the switch that I really have had no more than a handful of mikes in total in my training sessions (every session averaging some 200/250 rounds), while previously they were way worse than that, and those who have shot with me can attest this... . I have also been able to narrow the distance between two hits on the same target to 2/4 cm wide. It seems to me that the FO rod got all my focus, so I was really not paying attention to the front sight in its entirety, and was blasting away every time I saw that red spot on top of the target. In hindsight, I now realize that the square black shape of the front sight makes me focus more on the front sight-rear notch relationship, probably slowing me down that 0.1s that I need to properly align it squared and levelled in the middle of the rear notch. Either I needed to go back to the basics to get decent accuracy, or this is only the trick of the day. Time will tell. Edited March 27, 2006 by Skywalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 It might be the "trick of the day" but it seems to work that way for me also. I am starting to switch over the sights on my guns to plain black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Seems like everything in this sport is a compromise...The FO sights are wonderful to pick up fast and are super for close hosing targets, but for precision shooting like 25 yr head shots nothing is better than a black on black ...Just my .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E53X5 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) I don't think I'm ready to switch to a plain black front sight yet myself, but I can relate. I first tried a FO sight about 3 years ago and really liked the results - very easy to pick up and made me feel like I was able to shoot faster. My favorite sight at that time was Brazos Lightning Rod with its huge dot (.060" rod that gave even bigger dot when melted). Recently, when I was building my new Limited gun, I decided to try Brazos Micro Dot just to see how it compares to the Lightning Rod; at first I thought the dot was a little too small (.040" "fixed" size dot), but now I'm really glad I switched - I can still pick up the dot very quickly, yet it's small enough to allow me to see the sight itself clearly (which I couldn't before because the dot was covering most of it), and once again, I feel my accuracy and speed have improved a little because of that. Who knows, maybe a couple of years from now I'll try a plain black sight and realize how much better it is compared to my current choice. Edited March 27, 2006 by E53X5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Skywalker, I think you are dead on. Many don't care abou the accuracy loss from a FO, but be prepared for the harder shots and you have an advantage. You can gain more time there than on the closer shots where the FO helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) Luca, Your experience mirrors mine exactly. FWIW, I think FO's have a place, but so far, nobody makes one I feel is "right." If someone made a .120 wide sight with the same configuration as the Brazos microdot (i.e. small dia fiber), WITH sloped serrations that were the same LPI as whatever Heinie is using, I think it would be the best of both worlds. The problem with all the FO sights on the market is that either you're blasted by a gigantic dot and focus at infinity - or - the front sight is so featureless you focus at infinity. Give me something, ANYTHING on that front sight to focus on, and I'd be inclined to put one back on my gun. Yeah, I'm sure it will cost more, but somebody throw me a bone here. Give me something I can use everywhere, not just sight that's great indoors but sucks outdoors. Hell, I'd settle for a serrated front with a small brass/gold bead inserted into it. At least it wouldn't snap all time. And yes, I know that Dawson makes one similar to what I'm talking about, but the serrations are way too fine to pick up quickly. They're just about impossible to pick up in anything but bright daylight. I've tried like 3 or 4 different configurations live fire now, and have gone back to the serrated front with Pat Kelley's file swipe across the top serration for my "fiber". In summary: - Sloped, serrated front - About .110 to .120" wide or so. People can edge-safe file it down if need be. - Duplicate Heinie's serrations - Use the fiber diameter on the Brazos microdot - If someone wants to get really crazy, make a snap-in plastic shield so you can turn the fiber "on/off" as needed That would be a fiber sight I can make use of. Edited March 27, 2006 by EricW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Sight black your FO when you feel the need for a post. It wipes right off. Nate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Luca.. I have switched back to a plain black serrated front sight after shootina fiber optic.. The FO front sight you can pick up quick..but I cannot shoot it as accurately..as a plain one.. I think in Limited and L10 you won't notice it as you do not get penalize as much for shooting "c"s but in production..where you just got to shoot As..I found I just shot sloppy with the FO sight.. now shooting the black..i can pound out A hits without losing anything in quickness.. just my experience.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 FWIW, I think FO's have a place, but so far, nobody makes one I feel is "right." If someone made a .120 wide sight with the same configuration as the Brazos microdot (i.e. small dia fiber), WITH sloped serrations that were the same LPI as whatever Heinie is using, I think it would be the best of both worlds. <snip> In summary: - Sloped, serrated front - About .110 to .120" wide or so. People can edge-safe file it down if need be. - Duplicate Heinie's serrations - Use the fiber diameter on the Brazos microdot - If someone wants to get really crazy, make a snap-in plastic shield so you can turn the fiber "on/off" as needed That would be a fiber sight I can make use of. So, you know people that do CNC work (for you, AAMOF), you have an idea for a sight, and you've proven that what you sell is of good quality. Sounds like another product to me. If you want a design, I already have one drawn up based (somewhat) on what Mike Voigt related about his sight experience. I had Brian Hawley make it for me and it currently adorns my Limited gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 So, you know people that do CNC work (for you, AAMOF), you have an idea for a sight, and you've proven that what you sell is of good quality. Sounds like another product to me. I've thought about it, but CNC capacity is so unbelievably tight here locally, it isn't even funny. In order to make a profit, you need CNC capacity in house, and I don't want to be in the CNC business. I want to be able to buy it from Brazos, put it on my gun and be done with it. Off to the shop to cobble up my old microdot into kind of what I want and maybe post a picture if I don't muck it up too bad. The problem with my sight is that it would have exactly ZERO curb-appeal. It wouldn't be a miracle device, just a normal sight with a small, FO helper to improve tracking in poor/difficult lighting. Nobody is going to dislocate their shoulder going for their credit card on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket35 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 I have switched from a fiber optic to a plain black front sight as well. And I have been experiencing the same result. More A's. I think I was caught in the fiber optic trap as well. With the fiber, I seem to get sloppy and do not get a crisp sight focus necessary on longer range targets. I am using the AmeriGlo adjustable sights for the Glock. It has a narrow .90" front sight blade and the rear sight is similar to a Bomar with the "combat" configuration. I am quite pleased so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Basics = Big flat black Patridge Sights = not Trick of the Day. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan W Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 I'm in agreement with you guys on this topic as well. Got rid of the FO and things are better for me personally. There's less distraction now and better points. I think I read somewhere were Travis T said FO's are like training wheels - "If you know how to ride, they just hold you back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo radley Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 I think I read somewhere were Travis T said FO's are like training wheels - "If you know how to ride, they just hold you back" Ouch! I like 'em. I've been using this Heinie (plain) / Dawson FO combo on my G35 for almost a year now, and like the sight picture more and more. On a tight shot, I just look at the top of the front sight, and ignore the dot; on everything else, the red or green dot gives me a warm feeling, since I often shoot without visual patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hey QuicksDraw! Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 I have another twist on the subject. I had my FO come off in the middle of a stage which happened to have steel. I found that I shot accurately due to being able to pick up the edges of the front sight and not be distracted by the big red dot. Also when shooting the steel I could see a little bit of white thru the front sight where the FO once was. Right or wrong I've been looking thru the front sight on steel and it's been working! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 (edited) So, you know people that do CNC work (for you, AAMOF), you have an idea for a sight, and you've proven that what you sell is of good quality. Sounds like another product to me. I've thought about it, but CNC capacity is so unbelievably tight here locally, it isn't even funny. In order to make a profit, you need CNC capacity in house, and I don't want to be in the CNC business. I want to be able to buy it from Brazos, put it on my gun and be done with it. Off to the shop to cobble up my old microdot into kind of what I want and maybe post a picture if I don't muck it up too bad. The problem with my sight is that it would have exactly ZERO curb-appeal. It wouldn't be a miracle device, just a normal sight with a small, FO helper to improve tracking in poor/difficult lighting. Nobody is going to dislocate their shoulder going for their credit card on that one. Gotcha. You could have one machined (or do it yourself) to your specs. The first thing that I noticed that was the main drawback for me for pretty much all the FO sights out there is that there's not enough black at the top. Voigt's advice was have as much black at the top as you do at the sides, so if you have a .040 fiber/hole in a .100 sight, have the hole centered at .050 so that you have .030 all the way around. Mine's pretty close to those specs, but if I were to have it built again, I'd do things a bit different. Same .040 rod, but a .110-.115 sight with the rod centered .070-080 from the top so there's even more black to focus on (the overall height of the sight would be between .195 and .210). I'd also have a lot less slant in the viewing surface. The second thing that I noticed that was a pretty big drawback for me for pretty much all the FO sights out there is that they're far too long. You don't need that much FO to have the thing draw your eye to it, so all you end up doing with a long FO sight is decreasing sight radius. Also, on the thinnest ones the brightness ends up washing out the black sides and top. As far as curb appeal goes, if you come at it from the right point of view and explain why you've manufactured the sight the way you have, I think it would have curb appeal. As far as the width goes, the thickness helps you focus on it to make more difficult shots. The serrations reduce glare. The "lowness" of the fiber optic in the body of the sight gives you more black at the top to, again, help make precision shots. And the fiber optic is there to do its intended job, not as an aiming aid, but as a visual cue to help you locate and track the front sight, i.e. not to help you call your shots. ETA: a shot of my sight. Edited March 28, 2006 by 300lbGorilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Cullen, We must communicate telepathically, because you wrote what I was just thinking: that lowering the fiber was the way to go. If it's going to be anywhere, I want it sitting right in the bottom of the rear notch. *If* and it's a big -if- the FO front is to have any value for me, it needs to be in the role of an *observation aid* and not as a sighting device. FO's are a giant loser as sighting devices IMO. Wonder if it's possible to get there from here...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carinab Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 (edited) I'm in the been there, done that camp in regards to FO. My G24 had an MMC front site customized with a "McNally" cut on the top - in that groove sat an archery FO thread. Yep, it was that long ago that a custom job was the only FO available. It only stayed on the gun for the off season. I discovered all my hits were going high as I was aligning the black under the dot with the rear blades. Perhaps a FO lower on the front post may correct this but then I'd have to ask what the point is. I noticed this last weekend that Max's limited gun was also running all black sights. We chatted briefly and he cited the same results when he tried an FO. I just think it's easier to call your hits with a simple, crisp, black .1 front site. Edited March 28, 2006 by carinab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 (edited) OK then, looks like I'm not alone ( ) and it is not the "trick of the day" ... What I forgot to mention is that shooting a FO front sight really helped me to transition from shooting with one eye closed to shooting with both eyes open: it took me only a few months to get totally accustomed to it, and now i'll shoot groups too with both eyes open. But, somehow, after having learned this (for which I have to credit the FO), I felt going back to plain black front sight really cured my accuracy problems. BTW, as you all can guess, I started to train again after a forced 1yr and a half hiatus where I have only been able to shoot a handful of matches ... watch out world ... I'm coming back! Edited March 28, 2006 by Skywalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonub Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 damn it now i have to try black on black again!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Serendipity ... I've also decided to switch back to iron front sight. Like Carina I find myself placing the FO in top of the rear sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott G Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Does anyone know the breakdown amongst the top 16 at limited nats for fiber vs black? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XD Niner Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 (edited) Well this is just great. I put a Brazos FO sight on my 1911 yesterday and then I read this thread tonight! I did have a chance to fire off about a hundred rounds yesterday after putting the sight on. It replaced a Trijicon night sight. My eyes are pretty screwed up (near sighted and astigmatic) and I have a hard time picking up the night sight much less a plain black sight. However, even with the FO, I basically align the tops of the rear and front sights to get my POI. I'm going to try this sight for a couple of months and four matches. Then I'll decide if I keep it. If I'm not sure, I'll try Nate's sight black tip and see how that works. Edited April 4, 2006 by XD Niner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UPSguy Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 What are peoples opinion of a gold dot front sight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 FINALLY people are realizing how worthless these gimmics are! they really hurt your accuracy and are just one more thing to break on a gun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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