You guys measure your bell & crimp?

[Abominator]

I've never measured my bell and crimp. Usually just enough bell to not scrape the blue coating and the Lee FCD is set up for 1 half turn after touching the case. No setback when pressing on the table.

 

Recently I've noticed my new 92x performance does not like to feed 124grn everglades RN bullets 1.1, 1.125, 1.135. FTFs them all. Loves blue bullet 125s at 1.125. Thinking about crimping a bit more. I noticed the BB I loaded had a bit more crimp than the EG. Something I've never paid attention to before. 

[mveto]

I don’t usually measure my bell but I do measure my crimp, I always try to get around .377-.378

[SV650Squid]

Bullet diameter + (case mouth thickness * 2) = crimp measurement.

 

Alternatively, creep the crimp in until the case gage stops rejecting.

[Farmer]

I eyeball the bell (M die) by setting a bullet in a test case  but I do measure the crimp. I  don’t have a set measurement on crimp because there’s so many variables. Usually I crimp .002 under brass diameter .1 below the mouth. 

[36873687]

i measure crimp. 

[xrayfk05]

No, it just doesn't matter unless you are seriously overdoing it. Especially with mixed brass.

Bell enough not to shave lead, crimp enough to function/fit the gauge. I usually disassemble a completed round so see how much crim I ended up with and adjust if needed. 

[DeepFried]

.388 and .378 should do

[rooster]

Over bell case, run it in the seat die, that measurement is what I set the bell for. For crimp make sure your case gauge is smaller than barrel chamber. I check this by crimping lower and lower until round chambers in barrel but not in gauge. Then continue until it chambers in gauge. Just make sure oal is not affecting the round in the gauge or barrel chamber.

[IHAVEGAS]

I crimp just enough to leave a slight visible ring on the bullet. For coated bullets that has seemed to work well. I think I got there based on advice from SNS casting, if memory serves. 

[Dr Mitch]

They don’t feed or they don’t chamber?  Guessing they don’t chamber and it’s due to ogive location and barrel leade interference.

[shred]

There are two very common issues with the problem-ammo people send in to evaluate when they are having Hundo case gauge issues.  The first is too long an OAL for their chamber

 

and the second is under-crimping. 

 

When I throw a round on the comparator and the case mouth is still flared like a trumpet, that's a sign.  I know there are dire warnings about overcrimping,  but they really aren't relevant for USPSA type shooting unless you're loading frangibles or plated hard-cast bullets.  If things aren't working well, add a bit more crimp and try again.  Measure it, look at it with a magnifier, check in gauge, run your finger over it, whatever works for you. 

 

30K PSI on the back end of a soft coated bullet is going to swage any minor crimp right back out, and even if it didn't, minor bullet damage in that area is not a factor at typical pistol ranges.  I drilled holes halfway into the sides of Blue Bullets and they still flew plenty accurate out to 25 yards.

[Joe4d]

5 hours ago, xrayfk05 said:

No, it just doesn't matter unless you are seriously overdoing it. Especially with mixed brass.

Bell enough not to shave lead, crimp enough to function/fit the gauge. I usually disassemble a completed round so see how much crim I ended up with and adjust if needed. 

pretty much,, bell enough bullet doesnt fall out when I rotate shell plate,, crimp enough it doesnt set back when I push on it.. Or the slight ring thing.
failure to feed isnt going to have anything to do with crimp in a 9mm.  Unless it is flared so bad its catching on the ramp or jamming in the magazine. 
You might be talking about failure to chamber,,    which tends to be caused by bullet shape / length issue.  You need to find the max OAL for any given bullet and gun combo and ensure you stay short of that. 
Can also be caused by bullet being crimped by seater before it is fully seated so its being pushed back and slightly bulging the brass. 

People lump the first 2 and last 2 together all the time, 2 different actions, different problems..
Even better the often post something like my gun has FTE's   umm ok which E ?

[HesedTech]

13 hours ago, Abominator said:

Recently I've noticed my new 92x performance does not like to feed 124grn everglades RN bullets 1.1, 1.125, 1.135. FTFs them all. Loves blue bullet 125s at 1.125. Thinking about crimping a bit more.

Occasionally measure crimp, but only to see how my plunk test and crimp dent worked out. Typically it ends up less than .380 after finding what works.

 

I set bell visually not by measurement.

 

The crimp is always to remove bell and then plunk test when setting up a load.

 

Did you plunk test the ammo in your 92?

If so, did you first try to increase crimp or decrease OAL before posting this?

I'm sure you know each gun has slightly different chambers. Personally I load for my most restrictive and then the ammo runs on all my guns.

 

This isn't PRS or F1 shooting, so accuracy is relative to hitting a 6" target every shot at 25 yards.

[4n2t0]

Have you plunked them in the barrel at 1.09, 1.08, 1.07 etc.? Sounds like and OAL problem to me but I don't shoot either bullet.

Edited April 7 by 4n2t0

[ysrracer]

10 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

I crimp just enough to leave a slight visible ring on the bullet. For coated bullets that has seemed to work well. I think I got there based on advice from SNS casting, if memory serves. 

 

Please don't bring logic and reason to an internet discussion

[ReconNav]

I measured both (repeatedly) while setting up my press.  I haven't measured again in several thousand rounds. 

 

Flare was set to .384", and has worked well, including with my new Lee Inline Bullet Feeder.

 

The 6th edition of the "Ammo Encyclopedia" lists the mouth OD as .380" in the military section, and .3799" in the sporting section. However, I adjusted my Lee FCD die until a pulled bullet had a VERY light (almost imperceptible) impression on the Blue Bullets I'm using.  That measured at .376", prior to pulling the bullet, and I stopped adjusting it.  Even though that's .004" smaller than the specified OD in the book, its worked very well for me.

 

 

Edited April 7 by ReconNav

[shred]

Anyone with a bit of free time can crank down the crimp die a quarter turn or so, make a few marked rounds and compare to see if it makes a difference.

 

[Abominator]

I originally started with 124gn RN from everglades 1.10 oal. Beretta hated them. With both my berettas in fact.

 

125gr Blue bullets & SNS rn & 1.135 oal & 1.145 worked fine.

 

I loaded 124gr RN from everglades at 1.130 and had failure to feed/chamber every couple of rounds with any mag I tried. I have 10. 

 

I noticed the poly bullets I loaded had a little bit more crimp. That's what led me to that. Perhaps it just doesn't like everglades bullets. It also hated 147 RNFP from everglades at 1.10 oal but worked fine with BB & SNS 147 RNFP at a longer oal.

 

I thought the longer OAL with the everglades would help but I guess not. 

 

All rounds passed case gage.

Edited April 8 by Abominator

[shred]

What's 'hated'?

 

If it's jamming up before the slide quite closes, it's likely too long an OAL for that particular bullet.  Even the same weights can vary a lot.  Here's how to tell that: 

 

If that doesn't help, then look at crimping some more.

 

Most gauges check the crimp area, most do not check OAL & bullet interference.

[fbzero]

I measure because if I'm setting up new dies or a press, I am able to duplicate my previous results. 

 

For the bell, I'm just trying to open up the mouth as little as possible to not damage the projectile when seating.  I usually see 0.382-0.383 recommended for this and I usually end up in the 0.381-0.382 range.  Depending on the diameter of your coated bullets, you might end up with slightly more.

For the crimp, all we're really trying to do is remove the bell - not hold the bullet in place as you seem indicate in your comments regarding setback.  Preventing setback is a function of neck tension, and if it is proper, you shouldn't be getting any setback even before you crimp.  Anywhere from 0.376-0.379 is the general range(recommend the higher end of that range for coated projectiles) here and we all find out what works best for us.  I like the majority of mine to end up at 0.378-0.3785.

Edited April 8 by fbzero

[IVC]

Belling is an intermediary step, so it really doesn't matter in the end. The only reason not to bell too much is metal fatigue at the case mouth. I bell just enough to get my MBF-dropped bullets remain in place as they are dropped. If they drop correctly but shake loose moving to the next station, I'll increase the neck expansion before adding belling. Remember, neck expansion and belling are different steps. 

 

As for crimp, I do measure the overall thickness of the round and calibrate the die. It ensures that mixed brass and various bullets stay within spec and pass the hundo gauge. Too little and the bullets won't stay put, too much and you start losing accuracy. But also keep in mind that brass thickness varies for mixed brass, so forcing the exact crimp will cause variable pressure on the bullet. 

 

For low recoiling rounds, including some rifle rounds such as 223, you don't even have to crimp. The brass is elastic and will keep the bullet stay put with the neck tension alone. A bonus is that using only the neck tension takes the wall thickness out of the equation - you get each round held by the natural elasticity of the brass with approximately the same force, while the finished round will vary slightly in measured crimp due to the variation in brass thickness. You trade consistent diameter of the rounds for consistent pressure on the bullet. 

 

Just remember that you still have to remove the bell no matter what your preferred crimp is. If you adjust your die to take out the bell, which you confirm by passing the gauge, you're at the good starting point. And to make sure you took the bell out, measure and calibrate the crimping die (which is what I do). From there, add crimp if you need to. 

[Abominator]

On 4/7/2024 at 7:54 PM, shred said:

What's 'hated'?

 

If it's jamming up before the slide quite closes, it's likely too long an OAL for that particular bullet.  Even the same weights can vary a lot.  Here's how to tell that: 

 

If that doesn't help, then look at crimping some more.

 

Most gauges check the crimp area, most do not check OAL & bullet interference.

 

Yeah "hated" was ftf or jammed at an angle in the chamber. 

 

But thats the wierd thing. The 124grn RN from everglades did the same thing at 1.10 and 1.135 OAL. 147grn RNFP the same. I guess I can try 1.145 or 1.155

 

I'll check out that article.

[Abominator]

On 4/7/2024 at 6:41 PM, shred said:

Anyone with a bit of free time can crank down the crimp die a quarter turn or so, make a few marked rounds and compare to see if it makes a difference.

 

That's exactly what I did. I have several rounds at different OAL each with light and "heavy" taper crimp versions.

 

Be looking to test this weekend hopefully. 

[4n2t0]

21 hours ago, Abominator said:

That's exactly what I did. I have several rounds at different OAL each with light and "heavy" taper crimp versions.

 

Be looking to test this weekend hopefully. 

 

I could be completely wrong, but it looks and sounds like you're throwing darts when deciding on an OAL. Load a dummy round really long and continue to shorten the round until in plunks and spins in the barrel. Yes, remove the barrel and use it to determine the max OAL.

 

Maybe you've done this and I missed it. If so, I'm sorry, but you keep saying things like 1.10 and 1.135. Why not 1.09? 1.08? 1.07? like I suggested previously? Ammo can still be long at 1.10. I'm not saying 100% that this is the problem, but without performing the steps above you'll never know. I can tell you this, the crimp, unless it's stupidly out of spec (should be roughly .376-.379 at the case mouth) isn't your problem. Maybe it's a magazine problem? Or something else mechanical? Maybe the feed ramp doesn't like that specific bullet profile? All I know is that it's highly unlikely that you're getting FTF's because of your crimp.

 

 

Edited April 9 by 4n2t0

[Abominator]

2 hours ago, 4n2t0 said:

 

I could be completely wrong, but it looks and sounds like you're throwing darts when deciding on an OAL. Load a dummy round really long and continue to shorten the round until in plunks and spins in the barrel. Yes, remove the barrel and use it to determine the max OAL.

 

Maybe you've done this and I missed it. If so, I'm sorry, but you keep saying things like 1.10 and 1.135. Why not 1.09? 1.08? 1.07? like I suggested previously? Ammo can still be long at 1.10. I'm not saying 100% that this is the problem, but without performing the steps above you'll never know. I can tell you this, the crimp, unless it's stupidly out of spec (should be roughly .376-.379 at the case mouth) isn't your problem. Maybe it's a magazine problem? Or something else mechanical? Maybe the feed ramp doesn't like that specific bullet profile? All I know is that it's highly unlikely that you're getting FTF's because of your crimp.

 

 

These were all just different loads I had reloaded for different guns. All loads I've ever made. Probably 40k of various 9mm, 40 S&W, 45acp, and .380 I've never encountered this issue over the years.

 

All my pistols have been just fine with any round I've loaded. Until I tried using these 124grn from everglades in the two Berettas. They feed fine in my other guns. 

 

When the rounds jam. I can pull back slightly on the slide and the bullet will finish feeding and fire just fine. But nearly every other round it will start to feed into the chamber and get stuck at a 45 angle and hang up the slide. Doesn't matter what Mag.

 

Heading to the basement now to try the OAL plunk.