USPSA Revolver Division Rule Change

[MikeBurgess]

29 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

I think locally they were highlighting revolver some how so the guys shooting revolver in open couls compare themselves to other open guys..
Nationally ? you are probably right, revolver guys just show up to shoot..
I would think a low cap nationals like revolver and single stack,, and get rid of that minor 10 thing in single stack would increase things a bit.. DO they still do a revolver/ SS nationals ? or do they just lump it in with other guns ?

last year they tried "handgun nationals" as Limited, Single Stack, L10, Production and Revo then at the last minute when it was still far from full added Limited Optics to the match, LO was the largest division by participation,

 

L       136

L10   3

LO    140

Pro   104

SS    61

Rev  29

 

That 29 in revo is about par for every nationals since it quit being a stand alone match the day after the single stack nationals 

 

In 2020? there was the SS and Revo nationals in Frostproof as a stand alone weekend, day 1 was run on a regular AM PM schedule day 2 and 3 were cut down to 1 mid day schedule because there was not enough shooters to fill 1/2 the available slots. 

[Ice36]

Going off the question asked, changing 13) optical\electronic sights allowed from No to Yes. which would indicate that it would be one division not two. This would not make your SC or Icore open optic revolver with ports and comps approved for use in USPSA also it takes them farther from IPSC revolver. I'm not sure adding cost to the division and not aligning with other revo divisions is going to bring more shooters in, 

[Bosshoss]

I have a difficult time answering the survey without some discussion or more information.

When the 8 shot was up for a discussion I asked several questions from SC and AD an higher and didn't a response I liked.

SO here it goes again, what are the plans for changing HHF on the classifiers? As optics will make a pretty large difference in L10 and Revolvers.

The 8 shot rule was supposed to bring in a bunch of new shooters and Locally we saw a slight uptick in revolver shooter but we lost a lot of the diehards when their 6 shot guns were made obsolete. I'm still friends with some of them and when that rule changed they quit shooting USPSA.

After 10 years we are back to where we started or maybe worse in revolver attendance.

I'm getting older or maybe just old and while I can't see as good as I used to I still like shooting irons but optics would make it easier. That being said if I was looking for a  easier game I wouldn't still be shooting revolver.

Going to have to think about this one and I still want to know what the plans are for HHF's on the classifiers. 

[RJH]

I think by adding revolver to optics they will change local match participation from one guy to one guy....

[pskys2]

The popular divisions are all optic hicaps.

Even non optic hicaps are way down, uspsa is trying to save production by increasing mag capacity, doesn't seem to be helping.

So the only thing revolver has that other locap divisions don't is being unique.  And at certain venues, like the free state, revolver can take a stand.

As joe said we set a revolver category to entice the optic revolvers, with limited success.

So im voting no, and recomending my semiauto friends do the same, just to keep the uniqueness of the more classic revolver.

[matteekay]

53 minutes ago, RJH said:

I think by adding revolver to optics they will change local match participation from one guy to one guy....

 

Ironically, it will probably be an even older guy  

[Joe4d]

12 hours ago, Bosshoss said:

The 8 shot rule was supposed to bring in a bunch of new shooters 

Wasnt smith and wesson doing more sponsoring back in those days ?

I imagine selling more new 8 shot guns was the point of the change.. Just like limited optics and making it 9mm.

[RangerMcFadden]

I was very disappointed when I saw the poll. They’ve been workshopping this since January 2024 and instead of crafting a survey that is nuanced and gets a the heart of why some people want Revo optics and others don’t, we essentially got a binary poll that seems to have been slapped together in 5 minutes.

 

Based on watching the meetings and corresponding with the board, the board says they want to increase participation at the club level. If that’s the case, why not have a question asking if we’d be in favor of a level-1 exemption?

 

Again, in correspondence, Yee-Min said that the board is also considering optics only on 6-shot major. 1.) why was that not included as a question and 2.) how will invoking a single stack-like major/minor meta-game increase participation?

 

I’m also disappointed that this survey was crafted without any input from those who shoot revolver. The proposal was first put forward by Russell Fortney. Russell claimed that he spoke with Revo shooters but after looking at the hundreds of matches he shot in 2023, I reached out those who shot Revo at the matches he attended. None of them spoke with Russell about optics and if asked they’d would have said they were against the idea. Perhaps he spoke to people who owned a revolver but don’t shoot USPSA with it. I don’t know, In fairness I haven’t asked Russell who he spoke to myself. However, when the revolver’s own instagram darling, Jay, lives in your area… don’t you think it’d be worthwhile to ask for 5 minutes of his thoughts before proposing a new sport-wide change? It’s not like he’s a hard dude to reach.

 

Beyond what I think of the board’s actions in bringing this motion to the members there’s other factors.

 

In short, because this is a long post and I’m almost done with my coffee break:

 

1.) Adding a cost of dot increases the barrier to participation

2.) Permitting optics within the revolver division would move USPSA drastically away from IPSC rules. It makes a gun that doesn’t overlap to any other sport, hindering participation.

3.) The classifiers will all be trashed.

 

I’ve written a letter with other Revo shooters that I will be sharing with others at nationals next weekend.

 

I’ll then be soliciting signatures from other Revo shooters before submitting it to the board.

[Alaskan454]

Former ICORE Stats guy, current ICORE Chair chiming in here. 

 

I have spoken with USPSA leadership about this recently, and I was very explicit in my recommendations.  DO NOT change the rules for Revolver Division.  Period.

 

I started shooting Revo just after the 8 minor guns were legalized, and I believe that rule change hurt participation pretty badly.  There are numerous "former" revolver shooters in my area who I think got pissed off enough that their gear was obsoleted overnight, that they didn't want to bother getting an 8 shot gun out of frustration.  For several folks it's a division they don't shoot full time, but enjoy now and again.  It sucks to go spend $2-3k on new gear when a rule changes.

 

The easy answer here is to harmonize the divisions between Steel Challenge and USPSA and just add OSR.  Don't meddle with existing Revolver division rules.  Simply add OSR.  I see the following outcomes:

• You will not piss off the legion of diehard Revo shooters who enjoy irons, and want to shoot, and qualify for IPSC matches with the same gear
• You will likely add more participation at "Optics Nationals" events if you allow OSR to compete there.  Spoiler alert, you will likely get a large fraction of the iron Revo shooters to show up with their dot guns.
• At the local level, you might get increased participation for folks who are not willing to signup in Open with a Revo, but would do so in OSR.

I don't see any real negatives, unless adding OSR would decrease participation with iron sights.

 

 

[guns_and_labs]

1 minute ago, Alaskan454 said:

 

The easy answer here is to harmonize the divisions between Steel Challenge and USPSA and just add OSR.  Don't meddle with existing Revolver division rules.  Simply add OSR. 

 

 

Hopefully you are heard and heeded.

[Joe4d]

55 minutes ago, RangerMcFadden said:

 

2.) Permitting optics within the revolver division would move USPSA drastically away from IPSC rules. It makes a gun that doesn’t overlap to any other sport, hindering participation.

 

Icore open is probably the best cross over gun to shoot a USPSA match.. optic, 8 shot, minor.
Its also runs neck and neck in most popular division with limited,, ( 8 shot no optic)
With the classic ( speedloader 6 shots and limited 6) as the also ran smaller divisions.

But agree,, Legion of revolver shooters,, LOL,,

I mean really USPSA isnt  a game suited for revolvers, can change the revolver division rules all you want but unless the flavor of the matches change to lower round count, less movement, and more shooting challenges its just not gonna attract to many revolvers. 
 

[perttime]

2 hours ago, Alaskan454 said:

...

... Don't meddle with existing Revolver division rules.  Simply add OSR.  I see the following outcomes:...

...

I don't see any real negatives, unless adding OSR would decrease participation with iron sights.

 

 

Who would start shooting OSR?

I find it hard to see lots of people from semi-auto divisions moving into OSR. More likely people who are already shooting revolvers.

[JohnZ]

Me and my 625 are SO glad we gave up on uspsa when they allowed 8 shot revos, you all have fun and be SAFE

[pskys2]

3 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Icore open is probably the best cross over gun to shoot a USPSA match.. optic, 8 shot, minor.
Its also runs neck and neck in most popular division with limited,, ( 8 shot no optic)
With the classic ( speedloader 6 shots and limited 6) as the also ran smaller divisions.

But agree,, Legion of revolver shooters,, LOL,,

I mean really USPSA isnt  a game suited for revolvers, can change the revolver division rules all you want but unless the flavor of the matches change to lower round count, less movement, and more shooting challenges its just not gonna attract to many revolvers. 
 

USPSA Revolver Division attracts those of us who like to feel challenged.  It's balls to the walls, even when reloading.  Whereas ICORE is all about control.

[pskys2]

7 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Wasnt smith and wesson doing more sponsoring back in those days ?

I imagine selling more new 8 shot guns was the point of the change.. Just like limited optics and making it 9mm.

Not really, Smith did more sponsorship before the change and seemed to lose interest in Revolvers, they discontinued the 625 PC, then Jerry went Multi-Gun???

[pskys2]

4 hours ago, Alaskan454 said:

Former ICORE Stats guy, current ICORE Chair chiming in here. 

 

I have spoken with USPSA leadership about this recently, and I was very explicit in my recommendations.  DO NOT change the rules for Revolver Division.  Period.

 

I started shooting Revo just after the 8 minor guns were legalized, and I believe that rule change hurt participation pretty badly.  There are numerous "former" revolver shooters in my area who I think got pissed off enough that their gear was obsoleted overnight, that they didn't want to bother getting an 8 shot gun out of frustration.  For several folks it's a division they don't shoot full time, but enjoy now and again.  It sucks to go spend $2-3k on new gear when a rule changes.

 

The easy answer here is to harmonize the divisions between Steel Challenge and USPSA and just add OSR.  Don't meddle with existing Revolver division rules.  Simply add OSR.  I see the following outcomes:

• You will not piss off the legion of diehard Revo shooters who enjoy irons, and want to shoot, and qualify for IPSC matches with the same gear
• You will likely add more participation at "Optics Nationals" events if you allow OSR to compete there.  Spoiler alert, you will likely get a large fraction of the iron Revo shooters to show up with their dot guns.
• At the local level, you might get increased participation for folks who are not willing to signup in Open with a Revo, but would do so in OSR.

I don't see any real negatives, unless adding OSR would decrease participation with iron sights.

 

 

Here at MCPSL in Kansas we ran a couple of matches with a Revolver Category, and for local matches I'd think that might be an option that USPSA could actually promote.  Then see what the future holds and how it shakes out.

 

FWIW it didn't seem to make much difference but we didn't keep at it either.

 

But the Free State had Revolver Division as the 4th most popular Division, and by a good margin too, only CO, LO and Open had more.

BTW Alex KC, KS isn't that far from you are we?  Put us on your list next year, hint the committee is really jonesing for a Staff Reset Match.

[mwx40x40]

6 hours ago, Alaskan454 said:

Former ICORE Stats guy, current ICORE Chair chiming in here. 

 

I have spoken with USPSA leadership about this recently, and I was very explicit in my recommendations.  DO NOT change the rules for Revolver Division.  Period.

 

I started shooting Revo just after the 8 minor guns were legalized, and I believe that rule change hurt participation pretty badly.  There are numerous "former" revolver shooters in my area who I think got pissed off enough that their gear was obsoleted overnight, that they didn't want to bother getting an 8 shot gun out of frustration.  For several folks it's a division they don't shoot full time, but enjoy now and again.  It sucks to go spend $2-3k on new gear when a rule changes.

 

The easy answer here is to harmonize the divisions between Steel Challenge and USPSA and just add OSR.  Don't meddle with existing Revolver division rules.  Simply add OSR.  I see the following outcomes:

• You will not piss off the legion of diehard Revo shooters who enjoy irons, and want to shoot, and qualify for IPSC matches with the same gear
• You will likely add more participation at "Optics Nationals" events if you allow OSR to compete there.  Spoiler alert, you will likely get a large fraction of the iron Revo shooters to show up with their dot guns.
• At the local level, you might get increased participation for folks who are not willing to signup in Open with a Revo, but would do so in OSR.

I don't see any real negatives, unless adding OSR would decrease participation with iron sights.

 

 

^^^^^^^This

[MHicks]

1 hour ago, pskys2 said:

Not really, Smith did more sponsorship before the change and seemed to lose interest in Revolvers, they discontinued the 625 PC, then Jerry went Multi-Gun???

 

I know that leading up to the ICORE 20th International  revolver championship they were heavily sponsering that match in the last 4 or 5 years. Then Miculek did start in more with 3 gun.

[Dr. Phil]

I shot a Steel Challenge state match with 3 of the former S&W pros. Right at the time that JM went 3 gun, S&W called a meeting and told the team that JM, Julie and 1 other shooter were staying and the contracts of everyone else were not being renewed.

Then S&W quit sponsoring our PSA shootout and some other matches so Ruger took over with their former S&W shooters in tow. 

Smith dropped most of their team and match sponsorships almost on the spot and haven't seen much from them since, yet they were still making match and PC guns for the competitors.

Too bad. I think people got waylaid and gave up. Except for the hardcore legion!

Edited September 6 by Dr. Phil
clarity

[gargoil66]

Guys:

 

No offense intended.  Just do not understand the logic.  

 

Steel Challenge has both Iron and Optically sighted revolver categories. So far I haven't heard any logical argument against having the same for USPSA.  

 

I shoot both irons and optics with the revolver.  Choose the right tool for the right job. 

 

I read a constant stream of 'we can't get new revolver shooters'.  We will get even less if we view revolver competition in terms of tradition instead of a modern, competitive sport.

 

Shooters today were raised on dot sights.  Proficiency with dot sights became attainable without going broke buying ammunition and then spending decades mastering iron sights.  And with proficiency comes enjoyment of the sport.  And enjoying the sport normally means more participants and long term participation.

 

There has to be a better reason why dot sights shouldn't be allowed on revolvers.  Particularly since fiber optics are allowed.  Tell me a fiber optic front sight is a traditional sight.  

 

GG

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ice36]

2 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

Guys:

 

No offense intended.  Just do not understand the logic.  

 

Steel Challenge has both Iron and Optically sighted revolver categories. So far I haven't heard any logical argument against having the same for USPSA.  

 

I shoot both irons and optics with the revolver.  Choose the right tool for the right job. 

 

I read a constant stream of 'we can't get new revolver shooters'.  We will get even less if we view revolver competition in terms of tradition instead of a modern, competitive sport.

 

Shooters today were raised on dot sights.  Proficiency with dot sights became attainable without going broke buying ammunition and then spending decades mastering iron sights.  And with proficiency comes enjoyment of the sport.  And enjoying the sport normally means more participants and long term participation.

 

There has to be a better reason why dot sights shouldn't be allowed on revolvers.  Particularly since fiber optics are allowed.  Tell me a fiber optic front sight is a traditional sight.  

 

GG

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steel challenge have 2 revolver divisions isr and osr. The survey question offers 1 division both irons and optic all in one. If that's ok for revo then why isn't it ok for production and Co or limited and lo to be one division. The other thing is the rules for steel challenge allow for comps and ports the survey doesn't offer that for uspsa so it's not just shoot your Icore open or steel challenge gun when the rules  change offered are different. After all the changes over the past year to align with ipsc like nationals using ipsc targets and 15 rounds for production why would you make rule to move revo away for ipsc. Just my thoughts 

[gargoil66]

8 hours ago, Ice36 said:

Steel challenge have 2 revolver divisions isr and osr. The survey question offers 1 division both irons and optic all in one. If that's ok for revo then why isn't it ok for production and Co or limited and lo to be one division. The other thing is the rules for steel challenge allow for comps and ports the survey doesn't offer that for uspsa so it's not just shoot your Icore open or steel challenge gun when the rules  change offered are different. After all the changes over the past year to align with ipsc like nationals using ipsc targets and 15 rounds for production why would you make rule to move revo away for ipsc. Just my thoughts 

ICE:

 

I agree about the questions and maybe the intent.  Problem is they didn't state their intent.

 

Not what I was asking though.

 

No matter how the question was worded and its intent, some guys are dead set against optics for revolvers.  To refine my question, and aside from the 'tradition' aspect, I ask why?

 

GG

[Alaskan454]

I suppose I should have been more clear, here are my preferred actions:

 

1. No rule changes, period.

 

2. If the Board feels they have to allow a low cap division which accomodates revolvers and optics, add optics to L10.

 

3. Distant 3rd, if the Board feels the words Revolver and Optic need to be together in the same sentence, then harmonize Steel Challenge and USPSA divisions, which allows OSR.

[pskys2]

3 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

ICE:

 

I agree about the questions and maybe the intent.  Problem is they didn't state their intent.

 

Not what I was asking though.

 

No matter how the question was worded and its intent, some guys are dead set against optics for revolvers.  To refine my question, and aside from the 'tradition' aspect, I ask why?

 

GG

One train of thought has been revolver participation is so low that to split it into 2 divisions would just exacerbate the problem. And that if someone wants to shoot revolver irons have been more prevalent, that may well change in the future.

The change to minor 8 actually seemed a wash.  I was in favor of that to align with icore more.  Had high hopes, but the gains didn't happen.

Face it hi cap and optics are the ticket and revolver will never compete with that.  So revolver will always be a boutique division, and im .

[PatJones]

On 9/6/2024 at 10:19 AM, Joe4d said:

I mean really USPSA isnt  a game suited for revolvers, can change the revolver division rules all you want but unless the flavor of the matches change to lower round count, less movement, and more shooting challenges its just not gonna attract to many revolvers. 
 

USPSA attracts me. I prefer the added difficulty and movement. At the matches I've attended, I find the stages are often more interesting in USPSA. I enjoy breaking down stages and finding the optimal stage plan. ICORE matches often make me feel robbed of that experience.

21 hours ago, pskys2 said:

USPSA Revolver Division attracts those of us who like to feel challenged.  It's balls to the walls, even when reloading.  Whereas ICORE is all about control.

I love the feeling of urgency at USPSA, ICORE feels slow and dull in comparison. I hope to take in a WRC match this winter and see what heavy metal division feels like.