USPSA Revolver Division Rule Change

[pskys2]

The USPSA Rules Committee is looking into some Rules changes in Revolver Division.

Specifically allowing, not mandating, the use of Red Dot Optics.

This may be a chance for USPSA Revolver Competitors to help guide this discussion.

 

[pskys2]

Once you have voted, please respectfully express your thoughts on this subject.  I am hoping that this will help USPSA make a decision that will help, not hurt, our beloved Revolver Division.

[Bill Sahlberg]

This would create another revolver division and we already are the smallest USPSA shooting division...

 

Iron Sight (Ltd Revo)

Optics (Open Revo)

[pskys2]

Just now, Bill Sahlberg said:

This would create another revolver division and we already are the smallest USPSA shooting division...

 

Iron Sight (Ltd Revo)

Optics (Open Revo)

In effect it might, but in scoring it would not.  They are not even talking of mandating Optics use.  It may well be all of the top competitors would switch to Optics but it would not create another Division.  And IMHO I do not think Revolver Division would survive separating into 2 Divisions.

[Makicjf]

If optics are "permitted" they are de facto mandated.  I'd allow dotted Revo 's in CO/LO before adding them to Revo.

   A low cap optic catch all in L10 could make a place for dotted 1911,'s and Revo 's as well.

   That being said, I love optic Revo  and would shoot it whatever form it may take.

 

Jason

[pskys2]

As a side note the last time a Poll was run on this topic it came out 50-50.  I posted it a couple of years ago and it was not meet with enthusiasm.

But times do change and Handgun Optics are becoming quite popular even with factory offerings.

Personally it would make no difference to me.  I shoot Iron Sights better than Optics, always have even with an Open gun back in the early '90's.  I made Open master with a compensated Caspian Hi-cap, switched to a Dot and my scores fell.  In Steel Challenge I routinely shoot both ISR and OSR and my times are usually several seconds slower with the Dot.  Now if I was to commit to Optics that may reverse.  But I prefer Iron Sights and doubt if I would change to Optics, but?

So personally it matters not to me.  I will continue to shoot Revolver Division in USPSA regardless of what changes happen.

Edited January 26 by pskys2

[pskys2]

At our local December USPSA Match we created a "Revolver Category" so we could track and compare all Revolvers.  Two of us shot Open Division/Revolver Category, I even loaded 357 magnums at Major PF and used a Dot.  4 others shot Revolver Division/Revolver Category (2 shot minor and 2 shot 6 shot major).  The winner was an 8 shot minor iron sighted Revolver.  The major PF did not bother me, but Optics slowed me down or cost me points as I struggle with them.  I swear on a couple of stages that had real close targets I never even saw the dot.  It surprised me that my points were as good as they were.  

Curious note the 2 new to USPSA Revolvers did not shoot Optics.

[radny97]

21 minutes ago, Makicjf said:

If optics are "permitted" they are de facto mandated.  I'd allow dotted Revo 's in CO/LO before adding them to Revo.

   A low cap optic catch all in L10 could make a place for dotted 1911,'s and Revo 's as well.

agreed

[underlug]

"If optics are "permitted" they are de facto mandated."

 

Optics are generally faster for most.  It will effectively obsolete non optics just as the 8 shot obsoleted the 6 shot revolver.

[Ice36]

I'm not in favor of this for a couple of reasons, one being that the current guns a line with Ipsc, SC ISR, Icore limited and limited 6 and even Idpa ESR, if you just add an optic and not ported barrel or comps it doesn't really a line with anyone else. Another is if mixing irons and optics is ok for revo why not combine Limited and LO, production and carry optics. 

[ysrracer]

5 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Once you have voted, please respectfully express your thoughts on this subject.

 

Respectfully? I'm out.

[gargoil66]

Guys:

 

Voted in favor of Optics.  Also, like Mike mentioned, am 100% in favor of porting and comps for revolvers.  

 

I shoot Steel Challenge where both irons and optics are allowed.  And I have shot irons in SC and other speed events.  

 

Irons have been rendered obsolete by small, dependable, dot sights.  In many competitive marksmanship events -- by magnified optics.  

 

I see no reason why a guy shooting a pistol has the option of optics or irons but a guy shooting a revolver doesn't.  

 

Not only do they allow guys over fifty to be competitive, but training costs are much less.  Also, younger shooters are much more familiar with dot sights than irons and my bet is more would compete with revolver if dot sights were allowed in USPSA.  

 

All of this stuff is a sport -- recreation for most of us.  I do not see how allowing a dot sight category will cause a black hole that sucks down the world of the revolver.  If anything, it will interest more shooters to shoot revolver.  Especially after they realize the cost of getting a pistol tuned so it is reliable in competition -- and then see how much ammo they are going through and not getting any better.

 

GG

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 26 by gargoil66

[Fishbreath]

I have two main objections:

 

1. With modifications to revolver rules, anyone interested in international competition has to either shoot US competition with an unlike gun, or intentionally handicap themselves in US competition. Picking who goes to shoot irons revolver against the best irons revolver shooters the rest of the world can muster based on who's the best dot shooter is backwards.

 

2. Dots will absolutely not reduce the barrier for entry. Revolver is already the hardest division to experiment with, because the bare minimum cost of entry is an $1100-$1200 gun and an entirely new set of belt gear, and the cost to be competitive is that plus the cost of gunsmith work, or the cost of learning to do it yourself. Adding an optic plate, a decent dot, and a compensator/porting is another $500 minimum.

 

If IPSC eventually wants to turn revolver into an optics division, I have no issue with USPSA following suit, notwithstanding critique #2—revolver is only ever going to attract the kind of shooter who is deeply fascinated with the guns. Until that time, the furthest I'm willing to go is revolver categories in Open and LO to accommodate optic+gas-redirection and optic guns.

[gargoil66]

42 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

I have two main objections:

 

1. With modifications to revolver rules, anyone interested in international competition has to either shoot US competition with an unlike gun, or intentionally handicap themselves in US competition. Picking who goes to shoot irons revolver against the best irons revolver shooters the rest of the world can muster based on who's the best dot shooter is backwards.

 

2. Dots will absolutely not reduce the barrier for entry. Revolver is already the hardest division to experiment with, because the bare minimum cost of entry is an $1100-$1200 gun and an entirely new set of belt gear, and the cost to be competitive is that plus the cost of gunsmith work, or the cost of learning to do it yourself. Adding an optic plate, a decent dot, and a compensator/porting is another $500 minimum.

 

If IPSC eventually wants to turn revolver into an optics division, I have no issue with USPSA following suit, notwithstanding critique #2—revolver is only ever going to attract the kind of shooter who is deeply fascinated with the guns. Until that time, the furthest I'm willing to go is revolver categories in Open and LO to accommodate optic+gas-redirection and optic guns.

FB:

 

IPSC?   I do not see a cause / effect between having a dot / 'gas redirection' category for revolvers in USPSA matches and IPSC. 

 

I just looked on Practiscore for IPSC stuff and I saw one or two pure IPSC matches in California.  The rest in Canada.  Given the distances and problems bringing a firearm of any type into Canada, plus the locations of the IPSC matches there, I doubt there are a whole lot of guys in the States who participate to any serious degree in IPSC and the ones who do would push for rule changes in IPSC if they thought allowing dots for USPSA were hurting their chances of being top end winners in IPSC.

 

I still do not see how hard it is to have a USPSA division of optic / 'gas redirection'.  And I do not see how it would hurt anyone's chances of being competitive in IPSC.  A guy who wants to win in IPSC will be practicing IPSC within its rules and will spend the money to go to Canada or the few places in the States that hold pure IPSC matches.

 

GG

[Makicjf]

guy who wants to win in IPSC will be practicing IPSC within its rules and will spend the money to go to Canada or the few places in the States that hold pure IPSC matches.

   I'd hazard a guess that this is about qualifying for the world shoot.

Jason

[10mmdave]

Oops, deleted my question as I thought Gargoil was an AD

Edited January 26 by 10mmdave
My brain hurts

[Fishbreath]

59 minutes ago, gargoil66 said:

A guy who wants to win in IPSC will be practicing IPSC within its rules and will spend the money to go to Canada or the few places in the States that hold pure IPSC matches.

 

World shoot qualification is 50% USPSA Nationals results, which means you need to shoot an optic/comp revolver (which means you need one in the first place) to qualify for an iron sight event.

 

USPSA is IPSC, even if people often forget or ignore that—tinkering with divisions to make them further from their IPSC counterparts is not something I'm favorably disposed toward, even if most people don't participate in international-rules IPSC events in the US.

[Ice36]

On the IPSC point, last year was the big discussion that production needed to move to 15 rounds to be the same with IPSC. Where I'm at there is a push to shoot IPSC targets to in line with IPSC, So the counter point of why do revo's need to a line with IPSC seems (for better words )lost to me. 

I'm not totally against red dots but there needs to be some sort of distinction between irons and opitcs for reasons raised above and it should at least line with steel challenge rules which also would make it an Icore open gun as most revo guys shoot both Icore and Uspsa.

 

[JFlowers]

Voted for Optics, but for a simple reason ..... old bloody eyes.  The logistical and political considerations, I didn't really think about.

[ysrracer]

I'm 65, you old geezers that need optics should go into politics, you'd fit right in

[revoman]

25 minutes ago, ysrracer said:

I'm 65, you old geezers that need optics should go into politics, you'd fit right in

I have seen you shoot. Maybe you should try optics. ✌

[pskys2]

One reason for these types of polls is to differentiate between the average competitor and those who seek ?more?

 

The IPSC argument is a valid one, but it actually affects only a few of our best.  

 

(Reviewing the current IPSC rule book it looks like you can't shoot 7 or 8 shots from a Revolver.  Must reload after 6 shots.  

MWP or Fishbreath would know more I'm sure, but if you must shoot 6 shots in IPSC I would think it would be Major PF.  That's a different enough platform that I don't know if the Dot argument would be that critical?)

I just received an answer on the IPSC Revolver FB Forum that IPSC Does Allow 8 shot Revolvers to be shot to capacity.  

So my original thought was that IPSC adopted 8 shot after USPSA, and that would also change the dynamics.

Edited January 26 by pskys2

[RangerMcFadden]

9 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

 

 

Reviewing the current IPSC rule book it looks like you can't shoot 7 or 8 shots from a Revolver.  Must reload after 6 shots.  

MWP or Fishbreath would know more I'm sure, but if you must shoot 6 shots in IPSC I would think it would be Major PF.  That's a different enough platform that I don't know if the Dot argument would be that critical?

I think you have an old one. There’s no limit to capacity. Revolvers with a capacity 7 or greater than cannot qualify for major scoring. Appendix D5 of the Jan ‘24 rule book.

[pskys2]

Just now, RangerMcFadden said:

I think you have an old one. There’s no limit to capacity. Revolvers with a capacity 7 or greater than cannot qualify for major scoring. Appendix D5 of the Jan ‘24 rule book.

I had googled it and the IPSC website listed what I wrote, I didn't think it was accurate and had a query I posted on the IPSC Revolver FB page answered that the Rule Book posting is incorrect?  Thanks for the verification though.

 

[gargoil66]

6 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

World shoot qualification is 50% USPSA Nationals results, which means you need to shoot an optic/comp revolver (which means you need one in the first place) to qualify for an iron sight event.

 

USPSA is IPSC, even if people often forget or ignore that—tinkering with divisions to make them further from their IPSC counterparts is not something I'm favorably disposed toward, even if most people don't participate in international-rules IPSC events in the US.

Jason:

 

I see what you are saying.  Doesn't change my opinion though.

 

I do not think guys on the level of MWP would have much a problem qualifying with an optically sighted and comped revolver and the next week pick up an iron sighted revolver and dominate his IPSC division / category. 

 

GG