Weight, Velocity, and Recoil?

[Guy Neill]

That gives recoil energies of (still assuming a 36-ounce gun)'

 

124gr - 3.68

147gr - 3.04

 

 

[Stafford]

52 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

You are confused because you made an incorrect assumption.  If you reread my original post it is clear I was referring to the OP's factory data.  His 147 factory load will have more actual recoil than the 115 or 135 loads.  You confabulated that into something else.

OK, but is it ok to assume that the 147 may have still have less "felt" recoil than the 115 or 135 loads?

 

 

 

 

[Stafford]

54 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

You are confused because you made an incorrect assumption.  If you reread my original post it is clear I was referring to the OP's factory data.  His 147 factory load will have more actual recoil than the 115 or 135 loads.  You confabulated that into something else.

And a follow up to this post... Since the 115 and 135 loads have basically the same 130ish PF, I'm guessing the 135 should have the least amount of felt recoil?

[Guy Neill]

5-pound gun

 

124gr = 1.66 ft-lbs

147gr = 1.37 ft-lbs

[4n2t0]

4 hours ago, Guy Neill said:

That gives recoil energies of (still assuming a 36-ounce gun)'

 

124gr - 3.68

147gr - 3.04

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Guy Neill said:

5-pound gun

 

124gr = 1.66 ft-lbs

147gr = 1.37 ft-lbs

 

That's more inline with what I was taught/learned.

 

I really am willing to learn but so far I haven't heard anything compelling from zzt that changes my perception of recoil. All he's done so far is try to blame me for not understanding or convoluting the conversation.

 

All else being equal, two different bullet weights (same construction), loaded with the same powder (with the heavier bullet always needing less powder to achieve the same PF), loaded to the same PF should result in the heavier bullet producing less recoil. 

 

I could still be wrong and I'm willing to admit it because that's how we learn, but someone would have to explain how the above statement does not hold water.

Edited June 14, 2023 by 4n2t0
Spelling, grammar, and punctuation.

[zzt]

2 hours ago, Stafford said:

OK, but is it ok to assume that the 147 may have still have less "felt" recoil than the 115 or 135 loads?

 

 

 

 

 

No.  Everyone experiences recoil differently.  And then there is the action of the gun.

 

147s are generally going to feel softer than 135s and 124s and 115s at the same PF.  That is because the recoil pulse is spread over a longer period of time.  That's not my experience, but a good portion of the shooting population agrees with that.

 

When I shoot 147s it feels like I can take a nap before the sights return to zero.  Muzzle rise is much more.  Recoil is a strong push.  To me, that adds up to be worse.  I much prefer the sharp, quick jolt of a 115 and the sights are back on instantly.

[superdude]

Online calculators are here:

 

http://kwk.us/recoil.html

 

https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi

 

[shred]

Same powder, same PF, heavier bullets recoil less because they use less powder.  It's not much difference but at 4000+ fps it adds up.

 

They also will feel very different, but the two are not the same.  That mostly has to do with the time over which the recoil force is applied.  Same force spread out over more time feels 'softer' too.

 

 

[superdude]

In case anyone is interested, the article below discusses this topic and provides evidence showing that a heavier bullet has less recoil than lighter ones when loaded to the same power factor with the same powder. 

 

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/power-factor-recoil-bullet-weight-gives-edge/99399

[motosapiens]

this is fun for noobs to argue about, but completely irrelevant to uspsa competition. Here is my complete guide to bullet weight and recoil for all shooters:

1. if you are a noob, or extremely frightened of recoil, use the heaviest bullets you can, and the fastest powder. Brag on instagram about how 'flat' your gun shoots.

 

2. if you are a good shooter, or want to be a good shooter, use the bullet and powder that returns the sights the quickest and allows you to shoot the best. That may not be the same for everyone depending on your strength, skill, and practice time. For me with a shadow2, that's a 115gr, although I don't particularly mind 124's either.

Edited June 14, 2023 by motosapiens

[Boomstick303]

As a Noob, I chased this rabbit down a hole for about a minute when you realize none of this crap matters when on the clock.  Find a load you like, that your gun likes where accuracy matters more than any of the other crap and load it.  Stop wasting time on finding the "softest" or "flattest" gun you have ever shot.  None of it matters when you are on the clock.  Fundamentals and training do.   

[Joe4d]

Post started with factory ammo,, so really without knowing the powder and charge there is no way to tell anything without shooting them.
I have seen pretty wide swings in felt recoil of different brands of of the same bullet weight ammo moving at same velocity... For that matter, my 124 gr reloads at exactly the same velocity as 115 Win WB, have noticeably less recoil.  JUst a guess but I assume ammo MFG use "medium" burn rate powders so they can load the vast majority of all their ammo with a single bulk purchased powder.
The light smaller stuff will have more recoil than a handloader can achieve with fast powders, the heavy stuff not the peak velocity with slow powders.
But ZZT is correct,, in this case we are talking 9mm in 4-5lb guns,,, good grief pull on your big boy pants.

[Joe4d]

7 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

As a Noob, I chased this rabbit down a hole for about a minute when you realize none of this crap matters when on the clock.  Find a load you like, that your gun likes where accuracy matters more than any of the other crap and load it.  Stop wasting time on finding the "softest" or "flattest" gun you have ever shot.  None of it matters when you are on the clock.  Fundamentals and training do.   

agreed, any of you guys ever hunt as a kid and used too much gun for you ? IE just had to use a 12gauge, or a bigger rifle ? You never feel the recoil when shooting at game.

[motosapiens]

18 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Post started with factory ammo,, so really without knowing the powder and charge there is no way to tell anything without shooting them.

that is an excellent point. as experienced reloaders know, there is a big difference in felt recoil (and sight return) when using the same bullet weight and velocity with different powders. Most competitive shooters in non-compensated divisions seem to prefer the fastest burning powder they can get away with, for less recoil and quicker slide movement.

 

Not knowing what powders are being used in the factory ammo, it's a complete crapshoot as to which will feel better to the shooter.

[MikeBurgess]

do a test,

 

1, Go to a match, this way you are focusing on the sights and stage and not directly what did round  feel like.

2, Bring a mix of 115 124 147 or whatever weight bullets you can et your mitts on, mix it in a bag and load your mags form said bag.

3, shoot the stages with the mixed ammo. 

4 draw your conclusions from this experience.

 

my takeaway from doing this years ago when I was a decent B class shooter, with a mix of 115 124 147 any 170 bullets was the various ammo was more different in sound than anything else. the gun either went Bang BANG or bang every time I pulled the trigger, the sights went up and came down just like always and by the end of the day I had decided that for me any ammo that functions, makes PF and hits where I expect will work as well as any other.

[Stafford]

OP here. Lots of good info and I appreciate the discussion. One thing I will add. While I do have some heavier guns and have previously used them in competition, I'm currently using a Glock, which is definitely not a 4-5lb gun.

[mpom]

FWIW, having a magazine containing rounds loaded w 147gr bullets vs 115/124gr bullets will change the recoil impulse by virtue of the added mag weight. How much is debatable but is part of the experience.

[Farmer]

10 hours ago, mpom said:

FWIW, having a magazine containing rounds loaded w 147gr bullets vs 115/124gr bullets will change the recoil impulse by virtue of the added mag weight. How much is debatable but is part of the experience.

About an ounce difference with a 19 rnd mag. A full mag with 124’s is a bit more than a half a pound. 
I noticed that one day just messing around testing some loads. Was loading 3 or 5 for function & speed and then did a full mag. Could tell the difference right away. 

[Joe4d]

2 minutes ago, Farmer said:

About an ounce difference with a 19 rnd mag. A full mag with 124’s is a bit more than a half a pound. 
I noticed that one day just messing around testing some loads. Was loading 3 or 5 for function & speed and then did a full mag. Could tell the difference right away. 

that reminds me of the first time I shot a glock,,, just felt really weird that the feel of gun changed so much as the magazine emptied.  DOnt recall noticing it in a Springfield XDM

[Farmer]

1 minute ago, Joe4d said:

that reminds me of the first time I shot a glock,,, just felt really weird that the feel of gun changed so much as the magazine emptied.  DOnt recall noticing it in a Springfield XDM

A Glock feels weird to me empty or full.  

[Joe4d]

1 minute ago, Farmer said:

A Glock feels weird to me empty or full.  

dont recall ever shooting one again,, and that woulda been 1997. then never messed with poly guns untill a couple years ago when I thought about trying CO and bought, an XDM osp,,, and was like,, Holy cow, a gun mags and factory ammo I can just load and shoot,, without months of fine tuning all three.  SO now I am an XDM and revolver guy and my 1911's and 2011's havent been shot in years.

 

[Farmer]

On 6/15/2023 at 5:14 PM, Joe4d said:

dont recall ever shooting one again,, and that woulda been 1997. then never messed with poly guns untill a couple years ago when I thought about trying CO and bought, an XDM osp,,, and was like,, Holy cow, a gun mags and factory ammo I can just load and shoot,, without months of fine tuning all three.  SO now I am an XDM and revolver guy and my 1911's and 2011's havent been shot in years.

 

Same here. Just pull an XD, XDM out of the box and go shooting. I’ve put trigger kits in all of mine and changed the sight pipe from red to green but that’s about it. My 10mm will function from 700-1250+ fps without any changes.  

Edited June 17, 2023 by Farmer
Wording

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, Joe4d said:

 then never messed with poly guns untill a couple years ago when I thought about trying CO and bought, an XDM osp,,, and was like,, Holy cow, a gun mags and factory ammo I can just load and shoot,, without months of fine tuning all three.  SO now I am an XDM and revolver guy and my 1911's and 2011's havent been shot in years.

 

weird. I won a 1911 (in 45) in a raffle at a match, started shooting it, liked it, and had my best ever finish at nationals with it 2 months later. all I did was replace the stock recoil spring with a 14lb.

[Joe4d]

7 hours ago, motosapiens said:

weird. I won a 1911 (in 45) in a raffle at a match, started shooting it, liked it, and had my best ever finish at nationals with it 2 months later. all I did was replace the stock recoil spring with a 14lb.

45's tend to work and the rule sets kinda protect the configuration,  its the 9'a 40's and double stacks you have to play around with.

[shred]

I'd say it's: when you start playing around with them that they start to become unreliable, be it a Glock or 1911..